Anybody believe that Daniel's 70TH week has been fulfilled by Jesus - and then Stephen?

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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How does it make any sense to insert the Antichrist in Gabriel's answer to Daniel's prayer - for mercy and deliverance?

And since Jesus was called Messiah the Prince in 9:25, how is it weird that both Messiah and the prince are referring to him?
You think this dude is Jesus?
"And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. "
 
Feb 24, 2022
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You think this dude is Jesus?
"And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. "
Yes, Messiah the Prince sent them, leaving not one stone upon another. Titus actually ordered them to not touch the temple, but the soldiers did it anyway.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Yes, Messiah the Prince sent them, leaving not one stone upon another. Titus actually ordered them to not touch the temple, but the soldiers did it anyway.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

I gave your synopsis a fair hearing. But this is where you lost me.

There is zero doubt that the prince that shall come is the Antichrist.
 

RichMan

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Dec 9, 2021
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This was an interesting take on this passage. Several HUGE problems however.

In the scenario you've laid out, Jesus is the One who causes the animal sacrifices to stop, however, in 70 AD it wasn't Jesus who caused the sacrifices to stop but the Romans.

Also, the passage itself does NOT designate the Messiah as the one who causes the sacrifices to stop.

In fact, The immediate person predecessor in the text, clearly refers to the "prince that shall come".

Why would the reader jump back over the he, referring to the prince that shall come, to the Messiah the Prince?

It grammatically makes no sense.
The prince that shall come would destroy Jerusalem, the nation of Israel, and scatter the Jews.
This is referring to Vespasian not the anti-christ.
The anti-christ is not mentioned in Daniel 9, so "he" must refer to some one previously named if the pronoun is used grammatically correct.
Jesus ended the need of animal sacrifice when he sealed the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31 with His blood on the cross after confirming it with many.
 
Feb 25, 2022
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ombowstring.net
Hi @ombowstring , and welcome to CC. = ) I see this is your first post.

In answer to your question, "has anyone here read 'The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church' by Marvin Rosenthal?" Yes.
And here's how I would respond (and have posted about in the past)... at the bottom half of the following post, in the video there, David Hocking mentions Rosenthal and his book and some biblical facts regarding a certain point which impacts that particular viewpoint (it actually might be in the longer version of his message, this video linked in this post is the CONDENSED version, and I cannot recall if his mention of him is in there, or in the longer version of the same message):

Post #64 (different thread, some time back) - https://christianchat.com/threads/revelation-study.198143/post-4522228






Hope to see you around the boards. = )
I don't get your point.
 
Feb 25, 2022
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ombowstring.net
Have not read the book. If he states that the beast signs a peace treaty with Israel, that is enough for me to reject his belief as accurate.
There is no Scripture that states or even implies that the beast will sign a peace treaty with Israel.
Read the book and you might think differently.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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@ombowstring 's Post #105, saying "I don't get your point"...

Did you read the paragraph I had put right above the video in that Post I linked? (The part about Rosenthal?... we could discuss that at some point...)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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@ombowstring ... Yes, well D. Hocking was saying (either in this condensed video portion or in the longer version of this same msg) that Rosenthal (having written his book but not yet published it) came to agreement with D. Hocking when Hocking showed him the manuscript evidence of the "US" in Rev5:9 (which, Hocking also points out that G E Ladd had said [in his view] that *IF* the word IS "US" in that verse [v.9] it would bring him to conclude that it IS the Church [in Heaven] via "PRE-trib Rapture" [he's not a "pre-tribber"])--Hocking provides (in his talk / msg) the manuscript evidence that DOES indeed prove it says "US" (in v.9)... Rosenthal came to see this was indeed so (as a result of D. Hocking showing him this fact); but as Hocking points out, MR went ahead and published his already-written "pre-wrath" book...

My point was along those lines... does this help? :D





[Rosenthal's book was not convincing, btw...]
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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Why do so many believe that God is not all powerful to have not allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed ? God use the Roman army to do the job. Just like He used them to kill Jesus. All at the same time The Jewish leaders got the Romans to kill Jesus YET He GAVE His life for us. God stopped the sun. Created the universe some antichrist some army could not have taken The City had He not wanted it.

Dispensationalism has such a low opinion of God the Father, God the Son God the Spirit.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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The prince that shall come would destroy Jerusalem, the nation of Israel, and scatter the Jews.
This is referring to Vespasian not the anti-christ.
The anti-christ is not mentioned in Daniel 9, so "he" must refer to some one previously named if the pronoun is used grammatically correct.
Jesus ended the need of animal sacrifice when he sealed the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31 with His blood on the cross after confirming it with many.
Problem is the text says the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come, NOT the prince.

The sacrifices animal sacrifices continued for another 37/38 years after Jesus death and resurrection. Until the PEOPLE of the prince who shall come stopped it in AD 70.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ @Beckie ,

consider:

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age"... as well as the many passages (re: Israel) using this "UNTIL [/ TILL]" word... He's not done with them... He has a place for Israel in His scheme of things (it is written already, and we cannot change that) = )
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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Problem is the text says the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come, NOT the prince.

The sacrifices animal sacrifices continued for another 37/38 years after Jesus death and resurrection. Until the PEOPLE of the prince who shall come stopped it in AD 70.
The end of the Generation Jesus spoke of.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
8,716
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Problem is the text says the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come, NOT the prince.

The sacrifices animal sacrifices continued for another 37/38 years after Jesus death and resurrection. Until the PEOPLE of the prince who shall come stopped it in AD 70.
Agreed! (y)


And YES, (per Matt22:7 [see v.2 for CONTEXT]) "when the KING heard thereof, HE WAS WROTH: and HE SENT FORTH HIS ARMIES, and destroyed those murderers, and BURNED UP THEIR CITY" [70 ad events]... but He USED "the PEOPLE OF" (the prince THAT SHALL COME)--a specific "people". This does not make "the prince THAT SHALL COME" to have been Jesus ("the Messiah the prince" of verses 25 and 26a in Dan9, who was "CUT OFF" after the "62 Weeks [69 Weeks TOTAL]"), but it DOES show that "the KING" (per Matt22:7) was certainly IN CONTROL, just as He has "ORDAINED the Chaldeans [/Babylonians] FOR / TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT," like Hab1:6,12 SAYS!! (Matthew 22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" provides the SAME "SEQUENCE" issues I've already pointed out... this necessarily takes place AFTER those "70ad events"... meaning the "SAITH TO" part... [think: 95ad's writings...])



[Matt22:7's "HE [the KING / FATHER of the son] WAS WROTH" = Luke 21:23,20's "WRATH upon THIS people" = 70ad events]
 

RichMan

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2021
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The prince that shall come would destroy Jerusalem, the nation of Israel, and scatter the Jews.
This is referring to Vespasian not the anti-christ.
The anti-christ is not mentioned in Daniel 9, so "he" must refer to some one previously named if the pronoun is used grammatically correct.
Jesus ended the need of animal sacrifice when he sealed the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31 with His blood on the cross after confirming it with many.
Problem is the text says the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come, NOT the prince.

The sacrifices animal sacrifices continued for another 37/38 years after Jesus death and resurrection. Until the PEOPLE of the prince who shall come stopped it in AD 70.
And who were the people of the prince?
Did God accept the sacrifices after the death of Jesus.
Do you believe the people of the prince are the anti-christ?
 
Feb 25, 2022
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ombowstring.net
@ombowstring ... Yes, well D. Hocking was saying (either in this condensed video portion or in the longer version of this same msg) that Rosenthal (having written his book but not yet published it) came to agreement with D. Hocking when Hocking showed him the manuscript evidence of the "US" in Rev5:9 (which, Hocking also points out that G E Ladd had said [in his view] that *IF* the word IS "US" in that verse [v.9] it would bring him to conclude that it IS the Church [in Heaven] via "PRE-trib Rapture" [he's not a "pre-tribber"])--Hocking provides (in his talk / msg) the manuscript evidence that DOES indeed prove it says "US" (in v.9)... Rosenthal came to see this was indeed so (as a result of D. Hocking showing him this fact); but as Hocking points out, MR went ahead and published his already-written "pre-wrath" book...

My point was along those lines... does this help? :D





[Rosenthal's book was not convincing, btw...]
I still don't see what you are saying. When, in your opinion, does the Rapture occur?
 
Feb 24, 2022
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Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

I gave your synopsis a fair hearing. But this is where you lost me.

There is zero doubt that the prince that shall come is the Antichrist.
If you have praised Jesus as Lion and the Lamb, then you should’ve known that He’s also Messiah and Prince. As Messiah he saves, as Prince he judges. 70 AD is His judgement.
 

RichMan

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2021
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Read the book and you might think differently.
Don't think so.
The belief of a seven year peace treaty between the anti-christ and Israel is based on a misunderstand of Daniel 9 and leads to many other errors.
 
Feb 25, 2022
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ombowstring.net
I haven't read Rosenthal's book for a number of years so I'll have to, and want to, read it again. Obviously, I can't summarize the book in a few paragraphs, but I do want to make a few key points now.

Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is key to understanding the reign of the beast, 666. As I recall, the abomination of desolation is described in verses 14 and 15. It is the image of the beast that people must worship or be killed. Before this, 666 suffers a mortal head wound and miraculously recovers. All the nations of the world will come under the power of the beast. And he will set up a global economic system whereby no man will be able to "buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

One other point -
John must have been describing an asteroid hitting the earth in the Book of Revelation when he wrote, Rev. 8:8 – “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;”
The people of his day had no idea of a solar system or galaxies or asteroids. How else would he describe an asteroid impacting the earth other than to say it looked like “a great mountain burning with fire”?
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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This is that fable that goes around the internet ( :) ), but is not based at all in Truth.

"Dispensationalism" does NOT say this.

Rumors on the worldwide web by poorly taught goobers repeating this fluff, does not make this statement (in your quote at top) true (that this is the "Dispensatinoalist" viewpoint--it isn't).




1) one should study the distinction between the biblical phrases: "FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" and "BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world"--they are BOTH [/EACH] *biblical* phrases, but speak of (and cover the Subject of) DISTINCT things

(this, for one, debunks the fluffy rumor going around the internet [about "dispensationalists" supposed idea] that God was IGNORANT of certain things and ONLY "came up with PLAN B" [ :rolleyes: ] because He was thrown for a loop when Israel rejected Christ... NO. [NOT AT ALL what "Dispensationalism" teaches, but people keep repeating this falsehood, that it DOES]);



2) according to 1Cor2:8, there were some things that it was necessary to be kept secret [/hidden / undisclosed] BEFORE the Cross, for reasons spoken of in this verse - https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-8.htm
Yes it does Dispensationalism divides the 70th week off to the future.