Apology - I have said the h. of Israel includes gentiles

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Feb 26, 2021
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#1
I've realized it might have been a mistake on my part.

I'd like to just apologize to those that have saw my remark that the house of Israel includes Gentiles. Uh...

Many people seem to hold this belief that Israel is now a spiritual entity consisting of all believers, but I've recently realized that it's part of things taught by JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses aka the Watchtower), and at that point I was alerted that it might be a false doctrine, and that you might lead people astray by having this belief.

While I didn't say or believe Israel = today's believers, and was only making their house the "common returning place" (house of God) for all Christians, but I'm going to repent of it for now. I don't even want that logic.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,211
1,831
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#2
I stay away from controversial issues like that and more focus on how God is so incredibly Powerful, that He can change Hearts and minds, thus creating One Nation out of Two, thus removing the wall of hostility that stood between them.

All men and women are equal according to the Circumcision of Christ. It is this very Circumcision that explains the concept that there is neither Greek, Jew, Gentile, Male, or Female. What matters is that the Adamic Curse be removed from our Hearts.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,678
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#3
I've realized it might have been a mistake on my part.

I'd like to just apologize to those that have saw my remark that the house of Israel includes Gentiles. Uh...

Many people seem to hold this belief that Israel is now a spiritual entity consisting of all believers, but I've recently realized that it's part of things taught by JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses aka the Watchtower), and at that point I was alerted that it might be a false doctrine, and that you might lead people astray by having this belief.

While I didn't say or believe Israel = today's believers, and was only making their house the "common returning place" (house of God) for all Christians, but I'm going to repent of it for now. I don't even want that logic.
I think there are Biblical doctrines that groups, that have been rightly demonized for various other offenses, hold that possess some truth. This does not corrupt the doctrine as long as it is actually Biblical. I think people have some fear of being guilty by association if they hold something in common with a group like the JWs, but it's more important to right be association with whatever the Bible says.

That being said, what exactly does the Bible say about this topic?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
113
#4
I've realized it might have been a mistake on my part.

I'd like to just apologize to those that have saw my remark that the house of Israel includes Gentiles. Uh...

Many people seem to hold this belief that Israel is now a spiritual entity consisting of all believers, but I've recently realized that it's part of things taught by JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses aka the Watchtower), and at that point I was alerted that it might be a false doctrine, and that you might lead people astray by having this belief.

While I didn't say or believe Israel = today's believers, and was only making their house the "common returning place" (house of God) for all Christians, but I'm going to repent of it for now. I don't even want that logic.
So, what is your stance on "the New Jerusalem?" What is your stance on the New Covenant? What is your stance on what Jesus and the Apostles said about all this?

As for Jehova's theology, yeah, no thanks
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
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#5
WHAT GOD SAID:

Hebrews, Chapter 10:
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Chapter 8:
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Galatians, Chapter 3:

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


(read and understand)
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
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#6
I stay away from controversial issues like that and more focus on how God is so incredibly Powerful,
I wish I could say the same, but truth be told, if satan says a lie, it's for people's damnation. Thus, all truth must be sought. As for this matter, controversy over "Israel" is rather significant because you take one step wrong and it could lead to anti-semitism or a plot to cover prophecy.
I believe JW was created for a purpose, and I imagine danger in everything they teach. Same for Chabad and every other corrupt denomination.
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
59
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#7
I think there are Biblical doctrines that groups, that have been rightly demonized for various other offenses, hold that possess some truth. This does not corrupt the doctrine as long as it is actually Biblical.
true. I've had some occasions where I learnt definitions of Hebrew/Greek words through debating with JWs.

That being said, what exactly does the Bible say about this topic?
Currently, there is one point for discussion. One JW person suggested to me Galatians 6:16 as proof that "all who walk by this (spiritual circumcision) rule" are Israel of God. But I am not convinced. I'll give some major reasons below:
  1. Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto Mine elect: 'So may the Lord GOD slay thee'; but He shall call His servants by another name
  2. Act 2:22 - "Ye men of Israel, hear these words" (It can't be more obvious. Peter and Paul - even Jesus himself - used the term "Israel" to the actual children of Jacob.)
  3. Gal 6:16 - Paul wrote about his concerns for the Galatians that are turning away from the Gospel to the "you-must-be-circumcised" spirit. Above is a good point on their part, but I think that Paul meant those of Israelites who keep the Law in the Spirit in Jesus Christ, as opposed to their fathers who received the Law on Mount Sinai.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
113
#8
Currently, one JW person suggested to me Galatians 6:16 as proof that "all who walk by this (spiritual circumcision) rule" are Israel of God. But I am not convinced.
are you sure they are JW? a lot of people -- a lot -- believe there is no more Israel, and the church has taken their place, 'replacing' them - that God broke all His promises to them for their future, giving those promises to us instead. that's not what makes a person a JW. there are all kinds of other churches that believe that. it was a lot easier for them to believe that before 1948.. :unsure:

anyway wow that's crazy, because Galatians 6:16 actually tells us the opposite -- it proves there's a difference between "us" and
"the Israel of God"

look:
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul's saying peace and mercy be upon some people.
which people?
peace and mercy be upon two groups of people:
  1. whoever walks by this rule ((v.14 - let me only boast in Christ and nothing else))
  2. the Israel of God


peace and mercy be upon:
  • everyone who boasts in nothing but Christ
and
  • the Israel of God


make sense? Galatians 6:16 proves that "the Israel of God" is a distinct category of people different from "everyone who walks according to this rule"
whoever told you that is reading this verse as 'peace be on all who keep this rule; they are the Israel of God'
but that is not what scripture says.
what it says is "and"
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
5,685
1,623
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#9
Ty for the convenience of access!
See here God making distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah, it's become common practice to automatically assume Judah (Jews) whenever Israel is mentioned. Although Judah is included in Israel (Hebrews), is giving them exclusive qualification of Israel a correct way of defining Israel?

Abraham isn't born Hebrew, but he believes God and is the first 'one that crosses over' (Hebrew)
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
5,685
1,623
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#10
But, no worries for me either way, my daughter had her mitochondria DNA analyzed going all the way back to a Greek and Jew so:cool:
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#11
I've realized it might have been a mistake on my part.

I'd like to just apologize to those that have saw my remark that the house of Israel includes Gentiles. Uh...

Many people seem to hold this belief that Israel is now a spiritual entity consisting of all believers, but I've recently realized that it's part of things taught by JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses aka the Watchtower), and at that point I was alerted that it might be a false doctrine, and that you might lead people astray by having this belief.

While I didn't say or believe Israel = today's believers, and was only making their house the "common returning place" (house of God) for all Christians, but I'm going to repent of it for now. I don't even want that logic.

I have to admit when Post is right, he's right. And you are right. Be careful to avoid this false doctrine no matter who is pushing it.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,678
113
#12
true. I've had some occasions where I learnt definitions of Hebrew/Greek words through debating with JWs.


Currently, there is one point for discussion. One JW person suggested to me Galatians 6:16 as proof that "all who walk by this (spiritual circumcision) rule" are Israel of God. But I am not convinced. I'll give some major reasons below:
  1. Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto Mine elect: 'So may the Lord GOD slay thee'; but He shall call His servants by another name
  2. Act 2:22 - "Ye men of Israel, hear these words" (It can't be more obvious. Peter and Paul - even Jesus himself - used the term "Israel" to the actual children of Jacob.)
  3. Gal 6:16 - Paul wrote about his concerns for the Galatians that are turning away from the Gospel to the "you-must-be-circumcised" spirit. Above is a good point on their part, but I think that Paul meant those of Israelites who keep the Law in the Spirit in Jesus Christ, as opposed to their fathers who received the Law on Mount Sinai.
You'll probably find a diversity of opinion on this topic because the Bible says a lot about it.

For example, in the verse you quoted above in Galatians 6:16 it just says "the Israel of God" without actually elaborating on what the"Israel of God" is.

Then there are other verses that talk about Israel which seem to suggest that those who appear to be of Israel, even though they may be of the "seed of Abraham" which is literally Abraham's genetic lineage, are not necessarily Israel.

Romans 9 is a great chapter on this topic, but here's an important snippet from it:

Romans 9:6-7
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul states that a true Jew isn't someone of the circumcision (someone who has had their physical foreskin removed), but rather someone who has a born again spirit and has fruits of the Spirit.

Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So how do we define the "Israel of God" when taking in numerous other scriptures?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#13
The house of naomi included a gentile...but surely was a proselyte
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
5,685
1,623
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#14
I read an article some time back I now wish I had favorited because I've lost from where I found it. It concerned the Jewish, or it might've been Roman as my long term memory cogs creak along with effort, legal attitude toward adoption. Come to think of it, I believe I have it downloaded (for free!), "Experiencing God's Love As Your Father" by Mark DeJesus. Anyway, there is no 'step-label' about it, a son is a son once he is adopted into a house.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,502
3,116
113
#15
I've realized it might have been a mistake on my part.

I'd like to just apologize to those that have saw my remark that the house of Israel includes Gentiles. Uh...

Many people seem to hold this belief that Israel is now a spiritual entity consisting of all believers, but I've recently realized that it's part of things taught by JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses aka the Watchtower), and at that point I was alerted that it might be a false doctrine, and that you might lead people astray by having this belief.

While I didn't say or believe Israel = today's believers, and was only making their house the "common returning place" (house of God) for all Christians, but I'm going to repent of it for now. I don't even want that logic.
Hi pumpkinbread. If I understand you, you're talking about replacement theology; that is, the idea that the church has now replaced Israel and inherited the promises made to Abraham. In other words, according to this doctrine, whenever the New Testament refers to Israel it's talking about the church. God has finished with the Jews and everything has been transferred to the church.

This is as false as false doctrine gets and I'm glad you see that. It's based on Jew hatred, most of it coming from the Catholic church from very early on.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,588
1,048
113
#16
are you sure they are JW? a lot of people -- a lot -- believe there is no more Israel, and the church has taken their place, 'replacing' them - that God broke all His promises to them for their future, giving those promises to us instead. that's not what makes a person a JW. there are all kinds of other churches that believe that. it was a lot easier for them to believe that before 1948.. :unsure:

anyway wow that's crazy, because Galatians 6:16 actually tells us the opposite -- it proves there's a difference between "us" and
"the Israel of God"

look:
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul's saying peace and mercy be upon some people.
which people?
peace and mercy be upon two groups of people:
  1. whoever walks by this rule ((v.14 - let me only boast in Christ and nothing else))
  2. the Israel of God


peace and mercy be upon:
  • everyone who boasts in nothing but Christ
and
  • the Israel of God


make sense? Galatians 6:16 proves that "the Israel of God" is a distinct category of people different from "everyone who walks according to this rule"
whoever told you that is reading this verse as 'peace be on all who keep this rule; they are the Israel of God'
but that is not what scripture says.
what it says is "and"

well, to be accurate, what it says is kai. :)

in Greek, this conjunction doesn't always mean something like, "in addition to", as two disparate ideas.
it often connects what follows with a thought that has preceded it.

that's why some translations (NIV, BSB, CSB) use the word "even".
i'm not saying you're incorrect here; just that you may be thinking of it as a mathematician (quelle suprise lol) and not as a linguist would. ♥
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#17
Under the old covenant, God spoke in symbols, under that new covenant God speaks to us through our heart. The true God is a spiritual being, not a fleshly one. We are flesh. We need to read the symbols of the old testament with our heart, with the Holy Spirit telling us about the spiritual meaning of the symbols.

If we deny the Lord's view of Israel, then we get caught up in the fallacy of believing that God wanted all the nations (symbolic of those without God) to not hear His voice as God spoke to Israel.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,582
565
113
#18
I was going to PM the op but.. seems unless I PAY I can not talk to anyone.. praise God.. it was just something personal the lord showed me about this..
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#19
I was going to PM the op but.. seems unless I PAY I can not talk to anyone.. praise God.. it was just something personal the lord showed me about this..

I don't pay, and I PM people all the time.
 
Apr 26, 2021
495
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#20
Who are all the numerous grains of sand and stars of Abraham? Abraham wasn't a Jew. There was no Israel or Hebrew nation at that time. God declared He was the God of Abraham first, then God says He's the God of Isaac and Jacob, then Israel. Then He says He's the LORD of hosts.

He certainly appears to be the God of a mixed multitude.