Are All satans and lucifers in the Bible the Devil?

[presidente]

Was the angel who opposed Balaam the same being as the Devil in the New Testament?
Was the angel that brought the plague after the census the Devil?

Is the satan of the book of Job the Devil?

When Jesus told Peter 'get thee behind me Satan' that he savored not the things that be of God but the things that be of man, was he calling Peter and adversary/opponent or saying the Devil had talked through Him? Why would the Devil savor the things that be of men?


Associating the King of Babylon, called Lucifer, with the Devil, seems to rest more heavily on traditional interpretation than context. I suspect no one here would think the other lucifer passage (in Latin) II Peter 1:19 about the Daystar arising in the readers hearts is about the Devil.

I notice the same topics keep coming up over and over again in the forum. This is my attempt at something a little different.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Was the angel who opposed Balaam the same being as the Devil in the New Testament? Was the angel that brought the plague after the census the Devil?

There's no need to confuse evil angels with holy angels. There is only one Satan, also called the Devil. He was Lucifer -- a cherub -- until he became ha Satan -- the Adversary.

The angels you mentioned above were holy angels. Possibly even the Angel of LORD (the pre-incarnate Christ) in the case of Balaam. In Numbers 22:22 it does not say "an angel of the LORD" but "the angel of the LORD".

 

[Gideon300]

Was the angel who opposed Balaam the same being as the Devil in the New Testament?
Was the angel that brought the plague after the census the Devil?

Is the satan of the book of Job the Devil?

When Jesus told Peter 'get thee behind me Satan' that he savored not the things that be of God but the things that be of man, was he calling Peter and adversary/opponent or saying the Devil had talked through Him? Why would the Devil savor the things that be of men?


Associating the King of Babylon, called Lucifer, with the Devil, seems to rest more heavily on traditional interpretation than context. I suspect no one here would think the other lucifer passage (in Latin) II Peter 1:19 about the Daystar arising in the readers hearts is about the Devil.

I notice the same topics keep coming up over and over again in the forum. This is my attempt at something a little different.

Angel simply means messenger, either of God or of Satan. Satan means "Adversary".

It makes a little more sense if you look past human history as we know it. I subscribe to the pre-Adamic creation theory. It's not provable but it makes sense. I believe that Satan was Lucifer, the light of the earth prior to his fall. The earth as it was then was plunged into darkness and flooded by God. What we read in Genesis is the account of God's restoration after judgement.

Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are statements about Satan who is the god of this world, who he was and how he became God's enemy. The literal kings are Satan's puppets, as all unbelievers are under his control.

Adam was supposed to defeat Satan, instead Satan corrupted Adam. Lord Jesus became the Last Adam, fulfilling God's righteous plan and purpose completely. Lord Jesus came as the Light of the world, replacing Satan. Lord Jesus now rules and reigns through the Church. Those who are born again are the light to the world now.

I wish people would use English versions of the Bible. Peter said, “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

Lord Jesus addresses Satan as the one inciting Peter and Peter as the one thinking according to human reason and logic.

I read Isaiah and Ezekiel before I read any commentaries or heard any preaching on chapters 14 and 28. My immediate reaction was that it was talking about Satan. Many other believers have come to the same conclusion. I have no traditional views as i was not raised a Christian.

 

[presidente]

Numbers 22:22 says an angel of the Lord took his stand against Balaam as satan לְשָׂטָ֣ן against him (or as an adversary against him.)

Lucifer is a Latin word used to refer to the morning star. Somehow the Latin name for the star made it into the KJV translation of Isaiah 14. The Latin word was also used to refer to the Daystar in II Peter 1:19, which is not talking about the Devil.

 

[presidente]

I wish people would use English versions of the Bible. Peter said, “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

Lord Jesus addresses Satan as the one inciting Peter and Peter as the one thinking according to human reason and logic.

I read Isaiah and Ezekiel before I read any commentaries or heard any preaching on chapters 14 and 28. My immediate reaction was that it was talking about Satan. Many other believers have come to the same conclusion. I have no traditional views as i was not raised a Christian.

That's one interpretation. Another is that Jesus is calling Peter His adversary for opposing the plan for Him to die on the cross and rise again.

II Corinthians 2 says that if the princes of this world had known the wisdom, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Is this talking about spiritual princes, such as the prince and the power of the air? If it is, why would the Devil try to keep Jesus from being crucified if it were his plan to crucify Him?

 

[JaumeJ]

Wodrs evolve into all languages from others. This is why we have the study of etymologies. Take any example of any word considered to be of your own tongue and most often it will have an etymology tracing it back to another language. Sometimes it has gone through several languages..
It is not always good to point out a simple etymology to others who already have the understanding direct from his knowledge; it can become quibbling or arguing over words.

 

[Gideon300]

That's one interpretation. Another is that Jesus is calling Peter His adversary for opposing the plan for Him to die on the cross and rise again.

II Corinthians 2 says that if the princes of this world had known the wisdom, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Is this talking about spiritual princes, such as the prince and the power of the air? If it is, why would the Devil try to keep Jesus from being crucified if it were his plan to crucify Him?

Fair question. Satan tried to kill Lord Jesus a number of times. However, timing is vital in God's purpose. Satan does not know everything. Lord Jesus had a commission to fulfill and an exact time to fulfill the final act. Peter was a potential hindrance.

Paul is talking about the spiritual forces, not natural. They were behind the crowds chanting crucify, Pilate's lousy decision, the violent hatred of the Roman death squad and of course, Judas the betrayer. Satan must have the cooperation of people in order to carry out his wicked plans. We see this with Ananias and Sapphira. They were responsible for their deception, but Peter said that Satan had filled their hearts. Likewise Judas.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Fair question. Satan tried to kill Lord Jesus a number of times. However, timing is vital in God's purpose. Satan does not know everything. Lord Jesus had a commission to fulfill and an exact time to fulfill the final act. Peter was a potential hindrance.

Paul is talking about the spiritual forces, not natural. They were behind the crowds chanting crucify, Pilate's lousy decision, the violent hatred of the Roman death squad and of course, Judas the betrayer. Satan must have the cooperation of people in order to carry out his wicked plans. We see this with Ananias and Sapphira. They were responsible for their deception, but Peter said that Satan had filled their hearts. Likewise Judas.

Body of Satan=Nonelects. Body of Christ=God's elects.

Mark 5:2-13
King James Version

2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.

So people that sin, have demons in them. Demons are enjoying the pleasures of sin by occupying people's bodies. They know they are doomed to the lake of fire, so they are enjoying as much as possible. I guess some of the demons are in human form=high positions of power=government, false preachers (Ex: Benny Hinn), rich people and more.

I assume they are going to come out of hiding when Satan comes out physically, along with his demons. Just so he can have all nonelects worship him.

 

[JaumeJ]

That's one interpretation. Another is that Jesus is calling Peter His adversary for opposing the plan for Him to die on the cross and rise again.

II Corinthians 2 says that if the princes of this world had known the wisdom, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Is this talking about spiritual princes, such as the prince and the power of the air? If it is, why would the Devil try to keep Jesus from being crucified if it were his plan to crucify Him?

I believe "princes" is a reference to any people who have authority in this world over others. However they may or may not have understanding of truth from our Lord. You will know which is which by the fruit born by them.

 

[Adstar]

Was the angel who opposed Balaam the same being as the Devil in the New Testament?
Was the angel that brought the plague after the census the Devil?

The Bible does not name the Angel.. These Angels where doing Gods will therefore it can be assumed they where not satan..

Is the satan of the book of Job the Devil?

Yes The Bible declares in revelation that the devil and satan are the same being and also that satan is that serpent that was in the garden of eden::

(Revelation 20:1-2) "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. {2} And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

When Jesus told Peter 'get thee behind me Satan' that he savored not the things that be of God but the things that be of man, was he calling Peter and adversary/opponent or saying the Devil had talked through Him? Why would the Devil savor the things that be of men?

Maybe satan was working on and through Peter at that stage.. Peter did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time.. Peter recieved the Holy Spirit on the day of penticost..

Associating the King of Babylon, called Lucifer, with the Devil, seems to rest more heavily on traditional interpretation than context.

What king of babylon was called Lucifer??

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Was the angel who opposed Balaam the same being as the Devil in the New Testament?
Was the angel that brought the plague after the census the Devil?

Is the satan of the book of Job the Devil?

When Jesus told Peter 'get thee behind me Satan' that he savored not the things that be of God but the things that be of man, was he calling Peter and adversary/opponent or saying the Devil had talked through Him? Why would the Devil savor the things that be of men?


Associating the King of Babylon, called Lucifer, with the Devil, seems to rest more heavily on traditional interpretation than context. I suspect no one here would think the other lucifer passage (in Latin) II Peter 1:19 about the Daystar arising in the readers hearts is about the Devil.

I notice the same topics keep coming up over and over again in the forum. This is my attempt at something a little different.

Consider
Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The trio devil, beast and false prophet are tormented forever. If you believe in the doctrine of hell, then the beast and false prophet are persons (and that your soul is intrinsically immortal, by implication). These doctrines are not supported in the scriptures. If you believe what is written, then the beast and false prophets are more akin to kingdoms and political organizations. These occupy the realm of ideas. By inference, the devil is an idea.

The devil is a spirit (idea) that is embraced by the unfaithful, liars and carnally inclined. In contrast, the faithful is necessarily endowed with Holy Spirit - a Spirit that instills love, truth and obedience . At best the devil is the spirit of compromise.

Does this notion contradict the other verses
Rev 20:7 - After a long time the fall of babylon and the end of history the devilish idea of imperial right and might is released unto the faithful to separate the obedient from the deceivers
Rev 12:3-4 - A minority of the angelic host agreed to the devilish idea
Rev 3:9 - The synagogue of satan are an assembly of compromisers that self identify as Christians.

Passages that personify the devil idea, either poetic or is a description of a compromiser
Matt 16:23 - Peter is rebuked for letting emotion and worldly concerns overcome him when speaking of Christ`s Duty to fulfill the prophesies to die
1 John 5:19 , 1 John 4:4-6 1 John 5:18 - The world is gripped with the spirit of compromise
2 Thess 2:8-9 - The Holy Spirit which resides in the faithful will overcome the spirit of compromise and selfrighteousness (no big A antichrist)
Ezekiel 28 - A king is likened to a compromising cherub
Gen 3:1 (As per Michael Heiser) a seraph (angels closest to God) who embraced the devilish spirit was called a saraph (snake).

 

[presidente]

Body of Satan=Nonelects. Body of Christ=God's elects.

Mark 5:2-13
King James Version

2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.

So people that sin, have demons in them. Demons are enjoying the pleasures of sin by occupying people's bodies. They know they are doomed to the lake of fire, so they are enjoying as much as possible. I guess some of the demons are in human form=high positions of power=government, false preachers

I don't think the passage you quoted supports what you are trying to say here. This man was acting like a mad-man, wild, not living in human society. He lived among the tombs, which Jews considered unclean. Your average-run-of-the-mill sinner isn't acting like a raving demoniac. Regular sinners may be 'under the power of the evil one' and may even hold to 'doctrines of demons', but where is the evidence that they are actually demonized like this fellow was?

Jesus did not say everyone had to have a demon cast out of them. I John warns about the world, the flesh, and the devil. Fleshly people can do some pretty bad things. That does not mean they have to be demonized to do them.

I don't think that sin=demons.

 

[presidente]

The Bible does not name the Angel.. These Angels where doing Gods will therefore it can be assumed they where not satan..

The passage calls the angel satan in Hebrew, the word from which 'Satan' is derived.

Yes The Bible declares in revelation that the devil and satan are the same being and also that satan is that serpent that was in the garden of eden::

(Revelation 20:1-2) "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. {2} And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

We know from this that the Devil might rightly be called Satan, or maybe he is calling the Devil an adversary, but that doesn't mean all references to the Hebrew word for Satan are about the Devil, e.g. the angel that opposed Balaam.

Maybe satan was working on and through Peter at that stage.. Peter did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time.. Peter recieved the Holy Spirit on the day of penticost..

Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus. If the princes of this world had known the wisdom Paul taught, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Why would the Devil try to keep Jesus from the cross?

What king of babylon was called Lucifer??

The passage does not name him.

Isaiah 14
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

and later in the passage.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

[presidente]

Consider
Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The trio devil, beast and false prophet are tormented forever. If you believe in the doctrine of hell, then the beast and false prophet are persons (and that your soul is intrinsically immortal, by implication). These doctrines are not supported in the scriptures. If you believe what is written, then the beast and false prophets are more akin to kingdoms and political organizations. These occupy the realm of ideas. By inference, the devil is an idea.

You went way off on the last sentence there. It is well established in the Gospels and other books that the Devil is a real entity, that there are demons that Jesus and the apostles and others cast out of people, and that there are spiritual beings at war with the saints.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

You went way off on the last sentence there. It is well established in the Gospels and other books that the Devil is a real entity, that there are demons that Jesus and the apostles and others cast out of people, and that there are spiritual beings at war with the saints.

I understand what you are saying, but I think it may be a primitive form of identifying evil.

Consider,
The only Immortal Soul is God. The rest are contingent.
God is All knowing
God created the Universe by means of Jesus, and everything within for Jesus. That includes the devil.

Did God knowingly create a creature that was evil incarnate and was so powerful that it can tempt Jesus? Not possible - God is not the Author of sin, Jesus is given All Authority.

Here is a "contradiction"
2 Samuel 24:1 - Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1 Chronicles 21:1 - Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

If satan was a person, then that person was under the command of God. Once again, that sounds absurd.

The only way to conform with these verses is to question our interpretation. The interpretation of the personified evil is against the Scripture so it should be rejected.

The pagan/primitive view of the universe as a clash of good vs evil. Absolute God vs inexorable devil.
I now view the dark as nothing more than the absence of light (modern view). There is Jesus the Light to the world, or not. Consider the definition of antiChrist 1 John 4:1-3 - either one is all in or a bit off.

 

[Adstar]

The passage calls the angel satan in Hebrew, the word from which 'Satan' is derived.

The Bible in English does not identify the Angels as satan.. I trust that God can and does see to it that the meaning of the scriptures where translated well into the KJV Bible.. I reject those who put forward that the English Bibles are false because they are not hebrew.. So don't go down that line with me..

We know from this that the Devil might rightly be called Satan, or maybe he is calling the Devil an adversary, but that doesn't mean all references to the Hebrew word for Satan are about the Devil, e.g. the angel that opposed Balaam.

Again there is no Biblical name given for the Angel that opposed Balaam..

Isaiah 14
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

and later in the passage.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The passage addresses the King of Babylon AND the one who possessed Him Lucifer / satan.. You said yourself that satan entered judas.. The same lucifer can also enter The King of Babylon and even today you might have a world leader who satan is currently controlling..

 

[presidente]

I understand what you are saying, but I think it may be a primitive form of identifying evil.

Consider,
The only Immortal Soul is God. The rest are contingent.
God is All knowing
God created the Universe by means of Jesus, and everything within for Jesus. That includes the devil.

Did God knowingly create a creature that was evil incarnate and was so powerful that it can tempt Jesus? Not possible - God is not the Author of sin, Jesus is given All Authority.

Jesus was tempted. That does not mean that He desired to do evil. He was presented with it.

There are a lot of intelligent supernatural beings that were created. God created the heavens by His Word, and it's hosts by the breath of His mouth. The Word existed and was involved in the creating, but the other supernatural beings were created. Many of these beings are quite powerful, but they did not al always do right. The book of Job says that even with His angels doth he find fault. Some of these entities are in rebellion against God and His plans. It should not be that hard to conceptualized when you look at how humans, who are created beings, are capable of being self-willed and rebellious against God.

I do not call Satan 'evil incarnate.' I have no reason to think that he is incarnate, and fleshly people can be pretty evil themselves. The Devil is not an abstract concept. The Devil is a spirit.

Here is a "contradiction"
2 Samuel 24:1 - Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1 Chronicles 21:1 - Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

If satan was a person, then that person was under the command of God. Once again, that sounds absurd.

No it is not. God often uses agents in the Bible. That would seem to be the norm.

The only way to conform with these verses is to question our interpretation. The interpretation of the personified evil is against the Scripture so it should be rejected.

That is not our interpretation. That is your strawman, as far as I am concerned, since I do not believe that.

God is not just a set of abstract omnis, and the Devil is not personified evil. God is good, God is powerful, etc. But God is a Person with a will. And the Devil is a person, a spiritual entity.

The pagan/primitive view of the universe as a clash of good vs evil. Absolute God vs inexorable devil.
I now view the dark as nothing more than the absence of light (modern view).

I want to stick with a Biblical worldview. I think Lewis made the 'absence of light' argument. I don't see how that tracks with any particular teachings of the Bible.

 

[presidente]

The Bible in English does not identify the Angels as satan.. I trust that God can and does see to it that the meaning of the scriptures where translated well into the KJV Bible.. I reject those who put forward that the English Bibles are false because they are not hebrew.. So don't go down that line with me..

The Old Testament, most of it, was written in Hebrew, not KJV English. KJV-onlyism is a foolish stance that is based on nothing Biblical. The faith was 'once delivered to the saints' as Jude put it, before the KJV was written. There is no promise or teaching in scripture that in 1611 an infallible translation would be released. Jesus did not use the KJV. Peter did not. Paul did not. Holding to KJV-onlyism will hinder one from deeper knowledge of the scriptures. There is no reason to believe in KJV-onlyism except that a lot of preachers in a couple of niche movements say so.

Again there is no Biblical name given for the Angel that opposed Balaam..

I did not say 'satan' was his name. But the verse that says that he was to oppose Balam says that he was as satan to Balam, with the Hebrew word from which 'Satan' is derived appearing there in the text of the verse.

The passage addresses the King of Babylon AND the one who possessed Him Lucifer / satan.. You said yourself that satan entered judas..

The passage does not say that Satan is Lucifer. No scripture says that. It does not say that Lucifer possessed the man, either. That's a traditional interpretation, but it is hard to prove from the passage or the King of Tyre passage, for that matter.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Jesus was tempted. That does not mean that He desired to do evil. He was presented with it.

There are a lot of intelligent supernatural beings that were created. God created the heavens by His Word, and it's hosts by the breath of His mouth. The Word existed and was involved in the creating, but the other supernatural beings were created. Many of these beings are quite powerful, but they did not al always do right. The book of Job says that even with His angels doth he find fault. Some of these entities are in rebellion against God and His plans. It should not be that hard to conceptualized when you look at how humans, who are created beings, are capable of being self-willed and rebellious against God.

I do not call Satan 'evil incarnate.' I have no reason to think that he is incarnate, and fleshly people can be pretty evil themselves. The Devil is not an abstract concept. The Devil is a spirit.

That is my point - the devil is a spirit but not a person. If the devil is an idea that can be embraced or rejected, then the devil needs not be a person.

No it is not. God often uses agents in the Bible. That would seem to be the norm.

That is not our interpretation. That is your strawman, as far as I am concerned, since I do not believe that.

God is not just a set of abstract omnis, and the Devil is not personified evil. God is good, God is powerful, etc. But God is a Person with a will. And the Devil is a person, a spiritual entity.

I want to stick with a Biblical worldview. I think Lewis made the 'absence of light' argument. I don't see how that tracks with any particular teachings of the Bible.

By personifying the spirit,
a) everyone sinning has as a form of possession of the devil. It takes away from our duty as moral agents of God. "The devil made me do it"
b) that the devil is an agent of God. That idea is intensely sinful. God is All Good. It is written

I have never read Lewis but I will certainly take a looksy. Have a good one.

 

[presidente]

That is my point - the devil is a spirit but not a person. If the devil is an idea that can be embraced or rejected, then the devil needs not be a person.

You seem to equate spirit with ideas. The Bible says God is a Spirit. But God is not a mere human idea.

By personifying the spirit,
a) everyone sinning has as a form of possession of the devil. It takes away from our duty as moral agents of God. "The devil made me do it"

Again, a straw man. There are Christians who think different types of evil= demons. That does not seem to be the majority view. Many people are influenced by demonic ideas. This does not take away their moral agency. A relatively small number of people are demonized.

b) that the devil is an agent of God. That idea is intensely sinful. God is All Good. It is written

My OP questions whether every reference to 'satan' in the Bible is a reference to the Devil. I believe some are, specially later in history. But God can use Satan or other principalities and powers over nations that He has judged that have bad things ahead for them, to accomplish his purposes.

It seems like you hold to some kind of philosophy about God, evil, that isn't rooted that well in the specific teachings of scripture.