-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
L
Yes. We can. It would do one no profit to follow them of his own strength and will, but one can follow the commandments without the help of God.
For example, plenty of people who are not Jewish and do not believe the mitzvot should be upheld eat kosher simply because it is a healthier way to eat. They do not need the help of God to eat kosher, but eating kosher completely loses its meaning and significance when someone does it for reasons other than to serve and worship God.
***
MahoganySnail, the thing about the mitzvot is that you do not need to understand them in order to follow them. You do not need to understand why God said not to trim your beard in order to follow that mitzvot. It's a simple matter of love. God told you not to trim your beard, and so, because you love Him, you will not trim your beard.
As the belief goes amongst Jews, obey first and seek out a meaning second. For me, it is like math. I did not understand why theorems worked in math, but I understood how to work the problem out, so I did. Instead of sitting there saying "I don't get how this is possible, so I'm not going to work the problem out" I worked out the problem and then asked my teacher how these theorems came to be. Solve the problem before you go looking for a meaning.
For example, plenty of people who are not Jewish and do not believe the mitzvot should be upheld eat kosher simply because it is a healthier way to eat. They do not need the help of God to eat kosher, but eating kosher completely loses its meaning and significance when someone does it for reasons other than to serve and worship God.
***
MahoganySnail, the thing about the mitzvot is that you do not need to understand them in order to follow them. You do not need to understand why God said not to trim your beard in order to follow that mitzvot. It's a simple matter of love. God told you not to trim your beard, and so, because you love Him, you will not trim your beard.
As the belief goes amongst Jews, obey first and seek out a meaning second. For me, it is like math. I did not understand why theorems worked in math, but I understood how to work the problem out, so I did. Instead of sitting there saying "I don't get how this is possible, so I'm not going to work the problem out" I worked out the problem and then asked my teacher how these theorems came to be. Solve the problem before you go looking for a meaning.
D
Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So if the law's are written on your heart and you are living by the Spirit not by the flesh. Then you would be righteous in God's eyes. You can't be righteous by keeping the law IE: the letter, 613 commandments. But if you live by the Spirit of God - you are a CHILD of God.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Does that make a lil more sense? I mean I don't think God would LEAD you to live in sin. So nobody is telling you.. "You can accept Jesus as Lord and live however you like." No.. Not at all live by the spirit and not by the law or flesh.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So if the law's are written on your heart and you are living by the Spirit not by the flesh. Then you would be righteous in God's eyes. You can't be righteous by keeping the law IE: the letter, 613 commandments. But if you live by the Spirit of God - you are a CHILD of God.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Does that make a lil more sense? I mean I don't think God would LEAD you to live in sin. So nobody is telling you.. "You can accept Jesus as Lord and live however you like." No.. Not at all live by the spirit and not by the law or flesh.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Last edited:
D
Actually that is incorrect.
Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
1 John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
So yeah maybe you've never murdered anyone before. That doesn't mean you haven't been mad with anyone which Jesus considers the same as murder... And...
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
1 John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
So yeah maybe you've never murdered anyone before. That doesn't mean you haven't been mad with anyone which Jesus considers the same as murder... And...
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
L
Jesus did not die for the laws. He died because we sin, and he was our sacrificial lamb.
Yes, we can generally keep the laws without the help of God. That doesn't mean that we will. Of course, if we get into specifics then there are cases where God is most definitely needed in order to deliver us from sins we cannot conquer on our own, but that is more moral laws that we need God for than the others. For example, eating kosher is amazingly simple. It is the same as going on a diet or being a vegetarian. You simply make a decision to eat certain foods a certain way, and abstain from others. But when it comes to lying, while some people simply don't have issues with telling the truth, others do. This is a specific moral problem in which the help of God is needed.
But in general, one doesn't need God's help to keep all the laws. If that were the case, the world would be much worse than it is today, because every person that is not saved would be 100x more sinful.
Yes, we can generally keep the laws without the help of God. That doesn't mean that we will. Of course, if we get into specifics then there are cases where God is most definitely needed in order to deliver us from sins we cannot conquer on our own, but that is more moral laws that we need God for than the others. For example, eating kosher is amazingly simple. It is the same as going on a diet or being a vegetarian. You simply make a decision to eat certain foods a certain way, and abstain from others. But when it comes to lying, while some people simply don't have issues with telling the truth, others do. This is a specific moral problem in which the help of God is needed.
But in general, one doesn't need God's help to keep all the laws. If that were the case, the world would be much worse than it is today, because every person that is not saved would be 100x more sinful.
D
I thought I explained myself but I'll just post it again... Maybe you will read it this time.
James 2
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,”
4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
James 2
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,”
4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Last edited:
B
Definition_Christ, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the point you are trying to impress is this...
If we miss the mark on even ONE of God's laws, we are therefore guilty of missing the mark on ALL of God's laws.
Therefore, to say..."I don't need God's help to get me thru Commandment #____" as though that particular commandment were....easy...to keep... THAT would be a statement of error because you can't keep that one at all if you fail on another.
Would that be a fair assessment?
Now, the original question in this thread I believe is/was,
"Are the Ten Commandments still valid today?"
Answer: Yes...they are...still...the Ten Commandments...God's eternal law. Therefore, their validity remains.
Period.
Now, the question that begs to be asked next is, "Are we still judged according to God's eternal law...as in...these same Ten Commandments?"
All this other back and forth bantering is accomplishing no good thing.
Now everyone, get your cabooses back on the right track, or maybe it would be best to find another train to ride instead?
If we miss the mark on even ONE of God's laws, we are therefore guilty of missing the mark on ALL of God's laws.
Therefore, to say..."I don't need God's help to get me thru Commandment #____" as though that particular commandment were....easy...to keep... THAT would be a statement of error because you can't keep that one at all if you fail on another.
Would that be a fair assessment?
Now, the original question in this thread I believe is/was,
"Are the Ten Commandments still valid today?"
Answer: Yes...they are...still...the Ten Commandments...God's eternal law. Therefore, their validity remains.
Period.
Now, the question that begs to be asked next is, "Are we still judged according to God's eternal law...as in...these same Ten Commandments?"
All this other back and forth bantering is accomplishing no good thing.
Now everyone, get your cabooses back on the right track, or maybe it would be best to find another train to ride instead?
I
That's an excellent point you have Buddee (highlighted in the purple font above). I enjoyed the rest of your post as well, thanks for getting us back on center.
Since a true believer is going to go to Heaven: John 5:22-24 (KJV)
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
we won't be judged, in the sense of condemnation, for violating a law. So what type of judgement should we expect with respect to our adherence to the law, or should we expect any at all? And for the sake of argument, can we agree on law as meaning moral law? And to limit any further debate as to what moral law is, can we agree on the royal law:
Since a true believer is going to go to Heaven: John 5:22-24 (KJV)
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
we won't be judged, in the sense of condemnation, for violating a law. So what type of judgement should we expect with respect to our adherence to the law, or should we expect any at all? And for the sake of argument, can we agree on law as meaning moral law? And to limit any further debate as to what moral law is, can we agree on the royal law:
A
Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal,"
"You shall not bear false witness," " You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying,
namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Love does no harm to a neighbor;
therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal. 5:13-18
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty;
only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you consumed by one another!
I say then:
Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
and these are contrary to one another, so that
you do not do the things that you wish.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal.5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control.
Against such there is no law.
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal,"
"You shall not bear false witness," " You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying,
namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Love does no harm to a neighbor;
therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal. 5:13-18
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty;
only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you consumed by one another!
I say then:
Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
and these are contrary to one another, so that
you do not do the things that you wish.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal.5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control.
Against such there is no law.
- Status