Are women allowed to Preach?

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loyaldisciple

Guest
If her LORD and MASTER and HUSBAND whispers in her ear what was she commanded to do?

Matthew 10:27 provides the answer
The BIBLE has already given her her command regarding the preaching unto man within a church. That command was a NO. If she thinks she hears a different whisper just maybe that is someone talking to her other than God. It certainly would appear as though it would be someone else speaking to her now wouldn't it, since God has already given her her command on that issue.
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
The bottom line here is this: I choose and always will choose to believe exactly that which God and the Bible has told unto me. If you choose to believe anything otherwise, then that is certainly your choice.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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591
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Haggai 2 was declared of all men sir

no man can get around it
and Moses knew there was one who would come whom GOD would require all men to listen to THAT ONE

Just as Deuteronomy 18 prophecied
Are you declaring that Moses was not a man of God who commanded great admiration from God ? Are you presenting that God was very displeased with Moses ?. Is that why God actually changed His mind when speaking to Moses about killing the Jews when Moses asked Him to reconsider ?
Are you saying that Moses is in line to Jesus?
Moses will tell you differently
These are the posts in order for you to review

i have highlighted in red the post you made putting words in my mouth suggesting that I had some sort of issue with Moses
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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And I sir don’t have to choose to believe but know that HE pours out HIS HOLY SPIRIT on whomever HE chooses for HIS PURPOSE sir

Regardless if a man approves of it or not
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
These are the posts in order for you to review

i havrbhighlighted in red the post you made putting words in my mouth suggesting that I had some sort of issue with Moses
That is NOT putting any words into your mouth at all. It is asking questions and asking for clarification of what you actually meant. Do you notice the question marks there ?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
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Would you like me to post haggai 2 for your review?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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That is NOT putting any words into your mouth at all. It is asking questions and asking for clarification of what you actually meant. Do you notice the question marks there ?
I don’t like the way you asked questions sir That is projecting on me something that you shouldn’t have projected on me

and did you notice I said I wasn’t responding to your imaginings?
but turned it back on you with a question that I projected on you regarding the possibility that somehow you saw Jesus as no different than Moses

did you notice the question mark?
Did you like the question?
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
And I sir don’t have to choose to believe but know that HE pours out HIS HOLY SPIRIT on whomever HE chooses for HIS PURPOSE sir

Regardless if a man approves of it or not
God certainly does pour out His Spirit and those who truly trust in Him should attempt to follow His commands. You don't need to worry if man approves of anything or not. You should be learning of what God approves of and following that as your guide. He explains that to you in the pages of the BIBLE.
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
I don’t like the way you asked questions sir That is projecting on me something that you shouldn’t have projected on me

and did you notice I said I wasn’t responding to your imaginings?
but turned it back on you with a question that I projected on you regarding the possibility that somehow you saw Jesus as no different than Moses

did you notice the question mark?
Did you like the question?
I have no idea of what you mean when saying "how" I ask questions. A question is a question and all you were asked for was an answer for clarification. If you somehow don't approve of my question asking, then I could have said the very same of you. You were making suggestions as well with some of your comments. So, if you don't approve of the conversation then why do we just simply not end it ?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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I have no idea of what you mean when saying "how" I ask questions. A question is a question and all you were asked for was an answer for clarification. If you somehow don't approve of my question asking, then I could have said the very same of you. You were making suggestions as well with some of your comments. So, if you don't approve of the conversation then why do we just simply not end it ?
You can’t see that you added an element of your own insinuation into this discussion by suggesting that I saw Moses in a bad light?

This is neither a proper or mature way to have a discussion at all sir?

You made the discussion personal by focusing on me rather than the discussion
and maybe you didn’t plan to use it as a tactic but I didn’t stumble I ignored it and continued with the discussion regardless that you did this

this is not normal pattern in a normal mature and proper discussion
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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Sir?

I don’t have to “clarify” anything that I never said
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
Sir?

I don’t have to “clarify” anything that I never said
No you don't and neither do I.

Please excuse me, I have a young lad messaging me about every 5 minutes that wants help and really I should be concentrating on that right now. Maybe we can talk again soon. Have a nice evening.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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You’ll have to remind me of the “suggestions” I was making because up until the point of your personal misinterpretation and misrepresentation of me I wasn’t making any suggestions but clearly expounding the scriptures

after you suggested that I had an issue with Moses is when I turned it back on you and said do you think that Moses is somehow in line to Jesus

you want to be dishonest?
you won’t get away with it
the conversation shows the chain of responses and you sir are the one who made personal suggestions of what and how I feel

when you shouldn’t have
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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Context would dictate that it does.

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (1Co 14:37-39 KJV)
And this is exactly why people who don’t know Greek,, should never be allowed to make doctrine. The Greek does NOT say this.

[FONT=&quot]Εἴ τις δοκεῖ προφήτης εἶναι ἢ πνευματικός, ἐπιγινωσκέτω ἃ γράφω ὑμῖν ὅτι κυρίου ἐστὶν·[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]38 εἰ δέ τις ἀγνοεῖ, ἀγνοεῖται.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου, ζηλοῦτε τὸ προφητεύειν, καὶ τὸ λαλεῖν μὴ κωλύετε γλώσσαις·” 1 Cor. 14:37-39 Greek[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

In the first place, the word “man” does not appear at all! Instead, it is the gender neutral term, [FONT=&quot]τις[/FONT] tis, which means “anyone, someone”.

So,“If anyone thinks...”

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]τις[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is also used in the second sentence, where some biased translator has replaced it with “man.” So, “if anyone is ignorant”[/FONT]

Second, there is NO himself at all! That would be autos, and it does not appear here, in the whole passage. Neither, does “him” appear anywhere in the passage. The “let him acknowledge...” should properly be, “let them..” But it is probably 3rd person singular imperative, and in English, we do not have a way of just writing, “Let acknowledge...” because in Greek the subject is contained with the verb.

As far as “brethren” which would be “brothers” in correct English, I guess people so quickly forget, that even 20 years ago, the masculine included the feminine. But, English has changed and moved on, Koine Greek has not. Masculine includes the feminine, so when Paul says “brothers” he is indeed addressing, “brothers and sisters” especially in light of the fact that in no place in this passage does the word “man, male” or even “anthropos” which generally means “humans” and Paul uses it that way, and uses “aner” when he wants it to say, “man, male, husband.” Because there is no separate word for husband in Greek, or for that matter, “woman, female, wife” is only one word.

So, here is the NET Bible’s Translation. Now, the NET NT translation was headed up by Daniel Wallace, who is completely complimentarian. But, he has the integrity to stay faithful to the Biblical languages, where gender neutral and gender non-specific words are concerned. (Although I am not quite certain about verse 38, I will look it up in the extended notes version. - both for “recognize” and for using “he” which is simply not there, but that makes it hard to translate it into English.) Neither do the words “command”or “commandment” appear in Greek! Again, the use of “he” below is an effort to stay true to the verb being 3rd person singular, and we have no gender neutral term for that. Probably going to “they” is a better alternative, but then, you are using 3rd person plural, not true to the Greek, either.

[FONT=&quot]If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord’s command. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]38 If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues.” 1 Cor. 14:37-39 NET
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Here, the NIV does exactly what I proposed, and uses the inclusive “they” rather than resorting to referring just to the male gender.

”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” 1 Cor. 14:37-39
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Please note, the fact that this passage in Greek never refers “man,” or “him,” certainly not “himself,” or “he” and that “brothers” includes the “sisters,” and this is very elementary, basic Greek. You would learn this in the first 3 weeks of taking NT Greek. So, not a stretch to say that whatever version you have posted, is showing very biased, mistranslating, because of presuppositions about men and what they (men) think of women.

In fact, it only makes sense that Paul is addressing women, too, in light of earlier chapters, where he talked about women prophesing. Paul must truly get discouraged, when he sees what a mess some men have made of translating his letters! [/FONT]
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,959
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However it's gender is masculine. So Being it governs the rest of the clause. So when we come to ἐπιγινωσκέτω G1921 which is 3rd person singular. Proper grammar would dictate it be translated "Let Him Recognize" Not "themselves" as found in the NIV. This fact also limits the translation ἀδελφοί to brothers.

See my exegetical reference above. This is blatantly wrong, and shows you have no knowledge of Greek.

While ἐπιγινωσκέτω is certainly third person singular, it is also a verb. No pronoun is used! So therefore, it must be both. The fact is, Paul has good Greek. If he wanted it to say “man” or “he” he would have written it this way.

Instead, he wrote in the imperative 3rd person singular, which is neutral gender, so our choice in English is to wrongly use “he” or “she” which would be just as correct or use 3rd person plural, which would be “they” and not a perfect choice either.

So ἀδελφοί, which is Nominative Absolute, 3rd person plural, includes females, because nothing else in the passage says “male.”
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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Just because Phoebe was a servant of the church does NOT automatically translate into her becoming a deaconess. There was no such office. The NT is crystal clear that there are ONLY TWO offices in the local assembly (1) elders (pastor/elder/bishops) and (2) deacons. And one of the qualifications of a deacon was they they must be married and their WIVES must meet certain criteria.

Furthermore, when the first group of deacons was appointed (although not termed as such, but given the responsibility of deacons) in the Jerusalem church, the apostles clearly specified that MEN were to be appointed, even though the issue was women (widows) being neglected. This is decisive and was undoubtedly under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business (Acts 6:3)....
Doctrine from narrative... usually a bad idea, and definitely in this case. I have already conceded that "deaconess" is not a legitimate translation, so why you bring it up again is beyond me. Perhaps you didn't actually read my post.

I've addressed the "their wives" issue already. That you choose to ignore it is your problem, not mine. If you demonstrated an understanding of Greek beyond quoting Strong's, you might see the truth here. Instead, you seem stuck on the KJV translation of the Greek.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
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There is no rule on this site saying one cannot use "you people" to begin a posting. Who are you to be adding rules ? I happen to be free to address all that hold the same opinion anytime I wish. You should stop pretending you are the forum police and trying to make up your own rules.
You answer questions with more questions of your own. That is not how a conversation is designed to go. You should answer questions first and then proceed to ask more questions of your own. Otherwise you are giving weight only to your questions and no weight to the questions of others.
The bread you cast upon the waters has returned to you.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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Did you come up with this on your own or did someone tell you this?

I assume you are familiar with the Greek word gar?
The ideas are paraphrased from Charles Trombley's Who Said Women Can't Teach. I have referenced it previously in this thread.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
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And this is exactly why people who don’t know Greek,, should never be allowed to make doctrine. The Greek does NOT say this.

Εἴ τις δοκεῖ προφήτης εἶναι ἢ πνευματικός, ἐπιγινωσκέτω ἃ γράφω ὑμῖν ὅτι κυρίου ἐστὶν·38 εἰ δέ τις ἀγνοεῖ, ἀγνοεῖται.39 ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου, ζηλοῦτε τὸ προφητεύειν, καὶ τὸ λαλεῖν μὴ κωλύετε γλώσσαις·” 1 Cor. 14:37-39 Greek

In the first place, the word “man” does not appear at all! Instead, it is the gender neutral term, τις tis, which means “anyone, someone”.

So,“If anyone thinks...”

τις is also used in the second sentence, where some biased translator has replaced it with “man.” So, “if anyone is ignorant”

Second, there is NO himself at all! That would be autos, and it does not appear here, in the whole passage. Neither, does “him” appear anywhere in the passage. The “let him acknowledge...” should properly be, “let them..” But it is probably 3rd person singular imperative, and in English, we do not have a way of just writing, “Let acknowledge...” because in Greek the subject is contained with the verb.

As far as “brethren” which would be “brothers” in correct English, I guess people so quickly forget, that even 20 years ago, the masculine included the feminine. But, English has changed and moved on, Koine Greek has not. Masculine includes the feminine, so when Paul says “brothers” he is indeed addressing, “brothers and sisters” especially in light of the fact that in no place in this passage does the word “man, male” or even “anthropos” which generally means “humans” and Paul uses it that way, and uses “aner” when he wants it to say, “man, male, husband.” Because there is no separate word for husband in Greek, or for that matter, “woman, female, wife” is only one word.

So, here is the NET Bible’s Translation. Now, the NET NT translation was headed up by Daniel Wallace, who is completely complimentarian. But, he has the integrity to stay faithful to the Biblical languages, where gender neutral and gender non-specific words are concerned. (Although I am not quite certain about verse 38, I will look it up in the extended notes version. - both for “recognize” and for using “he” which is simply not there, but that makes it hard to translate it into English.) Neither do the words “command”or “commandment” appear in Greek! Again, the use of “he” below is an effort to stay true to the verb being 3rd person singular, and we have no gender neutral term for that. Probably going to “they” is a better alternative, but then, you are using 3rd person plural, not true to the Greek, either.

If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord’s command. 38 If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39 So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues.” 1 Cor. 14:37-39 NET

Here, the NIV does exactly what I proposed, and uses the inclusive “they” rather than resorting to referring just to the male gender.

If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” 1 Cor. 14:37-39

Please note, the fact that this passage in Greek never refers “man,” or “him,” certainly not “himself,” or “he” and that “brothers” includes the “sisters,” and this is very elementary, basic Greek. You would learn this in the first 3 weeks of taking NT Greek. So, not a stretch to say that whatever version you have posted, is showing very biased, mistranslating, because of presuppositions about men and what they (men) think of women.

In fact, it only makes sense that Paul is addressing women, too, in light of earlier chapters, where he talked about women prophesing. Paul must truly get discouraged, when he sees what a mess some men have made of translating his letters!
The portion which I highlighted in blue makes perfect sense in light of 1Corinthians 11:2, even presented as OF the KJV, "For as the woman is OF the man, even so is the man by the woman; but all things OF God."
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
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The BIBLE has already given her her command regarding the preaching unto man within a church. That command was a NO. If she thinks she hears a different whisper just maybe that is someone talking to her other than God. It certainly would appear as though it would be someone else speaking to her now wouldn't it, since God has already given her her command on that issue.
The bottom line here is this: I choose and always will choose to believe exactly that which God and the Bible has told unto me. If you choose to believe anything otherwise, then that is certainly your choice.
Given that you claim to believe exactly what the Bible says, and since you are so certain that the Bible says that "a woman may not preach unto man within a church", please post the verse that says exactly that.

I suspect you'll reach your 94th birthday before you find the verse.