Are you saved before or after you are baptized?
- Thread starter Tara
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
Before (see everyone saved before Jesus was born AND during his life without being baptized)
And for the people that say that baptism wasnt a requirement until jesus died, then that would mean that after Jesus died , king Davids salvation was revoked and also was every persons salvation whom Jesus had told "go home, you are saved" . Jesus would not tell someoen that they are saved if in 2 weeks, when he died their salvation would be annuled .
I dont think i need to copy and paste verses indicating that King David and other peeple are saved, or that Jesus told several peopel that they were saved less than a year before he died
And for the people that say that baptism wasnt a requirement until jesus died, then that would mean that after Jesus died , king Davids salvation was revoked and also was every persons salvation whom Jesus had told "go home, you are saved" . Jesus would not tell someoen that they are saved if in 2 weeks, when he died their salvation would be annuled .
I dont think i need to copy and paste verses indicating that King David and other peeple are saved, or that Jesus told several peopel that they were saved less than a year before he died
B
You are saved before you are baptized with water.
1 Corinthians 1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Notice below how the Gentile believers while hearing the Gospel, said nothing yet, but believed in Whom they were hearing about, received the Holy Spirit, the seal of adoption of being His children.. before they were baptized with water... so they were saved before water baptism below.
Acts 10:
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
1 Corinthians 1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Notice below how the Gentile believers while hearing the Gospel, said nothing yet, but believed in Whom they were hearing about, received the Holy Spirit, the seal of adoption of being His children.. before they were baptized with water... so they were saved before water baptism below.
Acts 10:
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Ro 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified BY FAITH without the deeds of the law.
water baptism is just a work that we do to show the world or who ever is watching , that we have called uopn the name of the Lord and we are obeying our Lord By being baptise. and actually Jesus changed the water Baptism to the Spirit baptism, as he signified when He changed The water to wine (Blood) at the wedding party , His first miracle recorded in the Scriptures.Lu 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE:
water baptism is just a work that we do to show the world or who ever is watching , that we have called uopn the name of the Lord and we are obeying our Lord By being baptise. and actually Jesus changed the water Baptism to the Spirit baptism, as he signified when He changed The water to wine (Blood) at the wedding party , His first miracle recorded in the Scriptures.Lu 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE:
Salvation/rebirth/regeneration could occur before, or after, or even during baptism. It shouldn't be after, but it may (and in such a case they probably need to have a new "believer's baptism", but anyway you get my point).
Note: it's not heretical for someone to say that they were saved when they were baptized, if that's when they really repented or "called on the name of the Lord". In fact in the book of Acts it seems typical that people "called on the name of the Lord" or "repented" through/at their baptism (or so effectively close to their baptism that it was all seen together as one thing):
Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 22:16 "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'"
'Course it's not the actual water that saved them, but their calling on the Lord (i.e., repenting), as Paul did in his baptism above, and as Peter says here:
1 Peter 3:20-21: "... in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also —- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. ..."
So it's the "pledge of a good conscience toward God" (or equivalently, repentance, calling on the name of the Lord, etc.) that saved them, but it seems that this "calling on the name of the Lord" was typically done through/at their baptism.
I was born again and set free from some particular bondage of sin months before I was baptized. My life was totally changed, before I even knew/learned that I should be baptized. It happened in my living room; I cried out to God about some particular sin, and after that, I noticed that the particular sin had miraculously stopped! (So, I know I was "born again" at that point.) Then, later, after getting involved with a Christian group, they encouraged me to be baptized, and I was.
But in the book of Acts, it seems that baptism was always immediate (immeidate upon accepting/believing the gospel).
I did student ministry for several years in Thailand and was blessed to see a number of Thai and Chinese and Korean students come to faith in Jesus. The Asian churches around us would do a "sinner's prayer" and then do a baptism months (or even one year) later (if a bunch of requirements were met). But as for me, I kept it simple, trying to follow what I see in Acts. After making sure they understood and believed the gospel, I took them to the university swimming pool (usually with some witnesses), and baptized them in the name of Jesus, while making sure they repented or "called on the name of the Lord" right then and there at their baptism. Perhaps some were actually regenerated before reaching the pool
, perhaps some were regenerated in the pool and perhaps a few weren't regenerated at all (or may be regenerated later). There was at least one who totally fell away from the faith after his baptism and denied the faith both verbally and with his life -- so in his case the answer is either after or never.
Note: it's not heretical for someone to say that they were saved when they were baptized, if that's when they really repented or "called on the name of the Lord". In fact in the book of Acts it seems typical that people "called on the name of the Lord" or "repented" through/at their baptism (or so effectively close to their baptism that it was all seen together as one thing):
Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 22:16 "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'"
'Course it's not the actual water that saved them, but their calling on the Lord (i.e., repenting), as Paul did in his baptism above, and as Peter says here:
1 Peter 3:20-21: "... in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also —- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. ..."
So it's the "pledge of a good conscience toward God" (or equivalently, repentance, calling on the name of the Lord, etc.) that saved them, but it seems that this "calling on the name of the Lord" was typically done through/at their baptism.
I was born again and set free from some particular bondage of sin months before I was baptized. My life was totally changed, before I even knew/learned that I should be baptized. It happened in my living room; I cried out to God about some particular sin, and after that, I noticed that the particular sin had miraculously stopped! (So, I know I was "born again" at that point.) Then, later, after getting involved with a Christian group, they encouraged me to be baptized, and I was.
But in the book of Acts, it seems that baptism was always immediate (immeidate upon accepting/believing the gospel).
I did student ministry for several years in Thailand and was blessed to see a number of Thai and Chinese and Korean students come to faith in Jesus. The Asian churches around us would do a "sinner's prayer" and then do a baptism months (or even one year) later (if a bunch of requirements were met). But as for me, I kept it simple, trying to follow what I see in Acts. After making sure they understood and believed the gospel, I took them to the university swimming pool (usually with some witnesses), and baptized them in the name of Jesus, while making sure they repented or "called on the name of the Lord" right then and there at their baptism. Perhaps some were actually regenerated before reaching the pool
, perhaps some were regenerated in the pool and perhaps a few weren't regenerated at all (or may be regenerated later). There was at least one who totally fell away from the faith after his baptism and denied the faith both verbally and with his life -- so in his case the answer is either after or never.
B
I believe the pivotal point of salvation is belief in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.Needing a new believer's baptism can be misunderstood as the necessity for water baptism.
John 20:31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:31These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
True. It is simply making sure there is no misunderstanding of placing the emphasis on water baptism. It is unfortunate that there are some that do and such, warrants clarity.
The King James Bible has it as an "answer of a good conscience", which to me is belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The "pledge" makes the christian life a religious one, and unavoidably so.
One can never know what causes someone to fall away. Betrayal.. a lie from the world.. a lie from within the church.. something could trigger these falling away as I have seen many, but when Jesus have bought someone, they are His. 2 Timothy 2nd chapter speaks of Him even abiding in those that believe not anymore for whatever the reason, and all because He can lose nothing that has been given to Him. John 6:38-40
Examples.. evolution theory caused a catholic to disbelieve and had gone into hinduism. The commitment to follow Christ has caused many to fail beneathe it and see others as hypocrits, and some come to the wrong conclusion that "christianity" doesn't work like AA, NA, or other self-help groups that look to commitments as the means to achieve their goals. One became an agnostic because of it. Another felt rejected by God because they sought and sought, but no tongues as a lie fed to him that if he doesn't speak in tongues, he doesn't have the Holy Spirit, and thus he is not saved. Hank Hanegraaff reported some had gone into the occult because of no confirmation spiritually that they were His, and so believing they were of the devil... have gone astray from the faith.
I pray that someday, that person may find his way back to the truth that will expose whatever offense that turned him away.
Thank you for sharing your testimony. The third stanza of Amazing Grace kind of shows how we all are under in this walk through this valley of death.
"Through many dangers, toils, and snares, I have already come, Tis grace has brought me safe thus far, And grace will lead me home."
John 20:31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:31These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
True. It is simply making sure there is no misunderstanding of placing the emphasis on water baptism. It is unfortunate that there are some that do and such, warrants clarity.
The King James Bible has it as an "answer of a good conscience", which to me is belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The "pledge" makes the christian life a religious one, and unavoidably so.
I was born again and set free from some particular bondage of sin months before I was baptized. My life was totally changed, before I even knew/learned that I should be baptized. It happened in my living room; I cried out to God about some particular sin, and after that, I noticed that the particular sin had miraculously stopped! (So, I know I was "born again" at that point.) Then, later, after getting involved with a Christian group, they encouraged me to be baptized, and I was.
But in the book of Acts, it seems that baptism was always immediate (immeidate upon accepting/believing the gospel).
I did student ministry for several years in Thailand and was blessed to see a number of Thai and Chinese and Korean students come to faith in Jesus. The Asian churches around us would do a "sinner's prayer" and then do a baptism months (or even one year) later (if a bunch of requirements were met). But as for me, I kept it simple, trying to follow what I see in Acts. After making sure they understood and believed the gospel, I took them to the university swimming pool (usually with some witnesses), and baptized them in the name of Jesus, while making sure they repented or "called on the name of the Lord" right then and there at their baptism. Perhaps some were actually regenerated before reaching the pool , perhaps some were regenerated in the pool and perhaps a few weren't regenerated at all (or may be regenerated later). There was at least one who totally fell away from the faith after his baptism and denied the faith both verbally and with his life -- so in his case the answer is either after or never.
But in the book of Acts, it seems that baptism was always immediate (immeidate upon accepting/believing the gospel).
I did student ministry for several years in Thailand and was blessed to see a number of Thai and Chinese and Korean students come to faith in Jesus. The Asian churches around us would do a "sinner's prayer" and then do a baptism months (or even one year) later (if a bunch of requirements were met). But as for me, I kept it simple, trying to follow what I see in Acts. After making sure they understood and believed the gospel, I took them to the university swimming pool (usually with some witnesses), and baptized them in the name of Jesus, while making sure they repented or "called on the name of the Lord" right then and there at their baptism. Perhaps some were actually regenerated before reaching the pool
, perhaps some were regenerated in the pool and perhaps a few weren't regenerated at all (or may be regenerated later). There was at least one who totally fell away from the faith after his baptism and denied the faith both verbally and with his life -- so in his case the answer is either after or never.
Examples.. evolution theory caused a catholic to disbelieve and had gone into hinduism. The commitment to follow Christ has caused many to fail beneathe it and see others as hypocrits, and some come to the wrong conclusion that "christianity" doesn't work like AA, NA, or other self-help groups that look to commitments as the means to achieve their goals. One became an agnostic because of it. Another felt rejected by God because they sought and sought, but no tongues as a lie fed to him that if he doesn't speak in tongues, he doesn't have the Holy Spirit, and thus he is not saved. Hank Hanegraaff reported some had gone into the occult because of no confirmation spiritually that they were His, and so believing they were of the devil... have gone astray from the faith.
I pray that someday, that person may find his way back to the truth that will expose whatever offense that turned him away.
Thank you for sharing your testimony. The third stanza of Amazing Grace kind of shows how we all are under in this walk through this valley of death.
"Through many dangers, toils, and snares, I have already come, Tis grace has brought me safe thus far, And grace will lead me home."
Baptism cleanses the entire person, internally and externally.from present existing sins. Acts 2:38. And makes him a New Creation 2 Cor 5:17. Baptism makes us adopted sons and daughters of God, adopted brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ 1 John 3:1; Rom 8:14
Bible uses "saved", Greek sozo, in past, present and future tenses. Must be careful in how one interprets it.
Professing "faith" in Jesus, that is, professing belief in Jesus, is only the first step in one's JOURNEY to Salvation.
Bible uses "saved", Greek sozo, in past, present and future tenses. Must be careful in how one interprets it.
Professing "faith" in Jesus, that is, professing belief in Jesus, is only the first step in one's JOURNEY to Salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 Says i thou shall confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved. So if you get baptized without that confession in your heart you are not saved. Yet if you confess that and are not baptized then you are saved.
Some teach that you are not trully saved until you are baptized saying that will seal your salvation. Now being baptized is important as with water. But being baptized in the Hply Spirit is the most important. Because it is the Holy spirit that will keep us (John 14:26-27).
Some teach that you are not trully saved until you are baptized saying that will seal your salvation. Now being baptized is important as with water. But being baptized in the Hply Spirit is the most important. Because it is the Holy spirit that will keep us (John 14:26-27).
Depends which baptism you are talking about. if by water, then that does nothing other than to show symbolism that one IS being cleansed all over and brought up into a a new life. baptism of the spirit that is possible through the blood of Christ is what cleanses. The water ritual itself has no pwoers,insomuch that the animals that the jews sacrificed had any power in themselves either, but through FAITH they were made holy. baptism of water is merely a symbol of ones rebirth in the spirit.
S
Piano,
Your comments about people before Jesus being saved without baptism is rather goofy. Baptism is into the death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4).
Baptism is a part of the New Covenant. Those before Christ were under the Old Covenant.
The term saved could refer to one's physical life or a healing. It does not always refer to ultimate salvation or eternal life.
Your comments about people before Jesus being saved without baptism is rather goofy. Baptism is into the death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4).
Baptism is a part of the New Covenant. Those before Christ were under the Old Covenant.
The term saved could refer to one's physical life or a healing. It does not always refer to ultimate salvation or eternal life.
Baptism is a sacrament of the NT instituted by Christ. Through baptism all sin , original and actual, is washed away. Grace enters the soul, and a person is born again of water and the Holy Spirit. Jesus made baptism a condition of entering heaven Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16. In Acts 2:38, Peter says thru baptism our sins are forgiven and we receive the Holy Spirit. Paul says thru baptism we are regenerated Rom 6:4. Titus 3:5 tells us we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the HS. 1 Peter 3:20 says baptism saves you now.
It is not symbol.
God Be With You Always
It is not symbol.
God Be With You Always
John 3:5 can be interpreted to mean born of water( physically by your mother) and by spirit ( Holy Spirit) remember the context. Jesus and Nicodemus were discussing birth and rebirth. Read John 3:6 there's a contrast ,Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. Jesus isn' t saying water baptism is a condition here. He's refering to physical birth "flesh gives birth to flesh"
Mark 16:16 is not an implied water baptism, but a spiritual baptism. Water baptism does abolutly nothing to you other than as a symbol of what the spirit is doing to you, cleansing you.
If we were to say that water baptism was mandatory for getting into heaven, then Jesus would be a hypocrite because he said to the man on a cross next to him "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." and that man was not baptised. Is this not true?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi!. It is far less important how one can try to interpret something than it is knowing how it has historically been interpreted for 2 millennia by the Church. John 3 refers to water baptism. Other interpretations are a product of modern times. Knowing the full treatment by the NT of baptism settles the question. John 3 has nothing to do with physical birth.
Water Baptism and the Holy Spirit are ONE PROCESS. HS descends during water baptism. Again, opening oneself up to the entire bible, OT and NT illustrates this treatment.
For God, NOTHING is mandatory. God is not bound by His own sacraments. However, your example of Didemus [may have misspelled his name] does not hold. Didemus did a good deed: he defended Jesus from the other criminals. Moreover, Jesus said "paradise", SHEOL, which is NOT heaven. Sheol is a place for the righteous dead.
Hi!. It is far less important how one can try to interpret something than it is knowing how it has historically been interpreted for 2 millennia by the Church. John 3 refers to water baptism. Other interpretations are a product of modern times. Knowing the full treatment by the NT of baptism settles the question. John 3 has nothing to do with physical birth.
Water Baptism and the Holy Spirit are ONE PROCESS. HS descends during water baptism. Again, opening oneself up to the entire bible, OT and NT illustrates this treatment.
For God, NOTHING is mandatory. God is not bound by His own sacraments. However, your example of Didemus [may have misspelled his name] does not hold. Didemus did a good deed: he defended Jesus from the other criminals. Moreover, Jesus said "paradise", SHEOL, which is NOT heaven. Sheol is a place for the righteous dead.
R
Baptism is a sacrament of the NT instituted by Christ. Through baptism all sin , original and actual, is washed away. Grace enters the soul, and a person is born again of water and the Holy Spirit. Jesus made baptism a condition of entering heaven Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16. In Acts 2:38, Peter says thru baptism our sins are forgiven and we receive the Holy Spirit. Paul says thru baptism we are regenerated Rom 6:4. Titus 3:5 tells us we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the HS. 1 Peter 3:20 says baptism saves you now.
It is not symbol.
No where in the Word are there any sacraments. That statement above looks like the way catholicism teaches it. Many here have done a good job defending heresy such as this, so I wont go on and on again about it. Just because it says "baptism" does not necessarily mean it is talking about water! water baptism has no saving power at all! You are saved the moment you believed and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption(Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) If you are trusting in water baptism to save you, then sadly you have believed in vain another gospel(Galatians 1:6-9). Catholcism attacks Christianity. Ive read the catechism, and it mostly goes against the Word of God and teaches a false salvation. I really wish Christians would ask God for the courage to expose this false doctrine and the false doctrines of catholicism. I often times feel like the lonely man on the hill warning people....This has ETERNAL consequences. We desperately need Christians today who are unafraid to lose their reputation to defend the faith!
It is not symbol.
No where in the Word are there any sacraments. That statement above looks like the way catholicism teaches it. Many here have done a good job defending heresy such as this, so I wont go on and on again about it. Just because it says "baptism" does not necessarily mean it is talking about water! water baptism has no saving power at all! You are saved the moment you believed and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption(Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) If you are trusting in water baptism to save you, then sadly you have believed in vain another gospel(Galatians 1:6-9). Catholcism attacks Christianity. Ive read the catechism, and it mostly goes against the Word of God and teaches a false salvation. I really wish Christians would ask God for the courage to expose this false doctrine and the false doctrines of catholicism. I often times feel like the lonely man on the hill warning people....This has ETERNAL consequences. We desperately need Christians today who are unafraid to lose their reputation to defend the faith!
So, you're basically saying that since something has been interpreted one way for so long, it's impossible to interpret it another way? Water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are not one process. Our faith in Jesus as an atonement for our sins is what brings about salvation, not a water baptism. By your logic a prisoner who says they, by faith, believe in Jesus as their savior and asks for salvation, but is shanked the next day before he gets to be baptized in water won't make it to heaven.
Lord forbid we think that water has a saving power. Roaringkitten is right, the belief is close to Catholicism and it is dangerous because it makes it seem like works are a part of what save us, rather than being an outcome of salvation.
Lord forbid we think that water has a saving power. Roaringkitten is right, the belief is close to Catholicism and it is dangerous because it makes it seem like works are a part of what save us, rather than being an outcome of salvation.
______________________________________________
What I am saying is that God's truth is not like a philosophy discussion where innovation, creativity and sophism are considered attributes. What Chrisitians long before you have understood I would think would hold some weight with you, unless you see Chrisitanity as an opportunity to assert your "intellectual freedom". If that is the case, then, no need for a discussion.
Baptism, like all Christian sacraments, is normative, not absolute. God is not bound by His sacraments. However, if one chooses not to partake of a sacrament, then he/she may have some answering to do before God.
What I am saying is that God's truth is not like a philosophy discussion where innovation, creativity and sophism are considered attributes. What Chrisitians long before you have understood I would think would hold some weight with you, unless you see Chrisitanity as an opportunity to assert your "intellectual freedom". If that is the case, then, no need for a discussion.
Baptism, like all Christian sacraments, is normative, not absolute. God is not bound by His sacraments. However, if one chooses not to partake of a sacrament, then he/she may have some answering to do before God.
I believe the bible has the last word on anything, not who said what when. I see Christianity as an opportunity to serve my savior by being like Him in every way because of my love and appreciation for him.
Still, i question baptism of water is the same as baptism of spirit at the same time. A close close friend is a loving guy, I love him to death. He shows so many of the fruits of the spirit, but he did not get baptized until late last year or so (man it was freezing). He went to church, taught, loved people, loved me like Christ loved everyone, and has spoken in tongues. He is like a brother to me and we teach each other so many things about the bible. However, are you saying that all of this was fake or that the spirit was not in him until he got plunged into the water? Salvation comes by faith, roaring kitten gave verses about that. I'm not asserting my "intellectual freedom" i am asserting what the bible says. Jesus' blood saved my friend and sent him the spirit way before the water baptism. He did it as a symbol to show that he is a changed person.
Salvation comes from cooperating with God's grace. You do that by doing the best you can, and when you stumble, repenting, and trying to do the best you can again. You live this way for a lifetime. When you die, God will judge that life. That you have tried to be obedient, is what we hope He will find pleasing, and thus judge you "saved". That is why Christ came in the form of a man and was willling to be crucified. His crucifixion was an expiation to the Father, a perfect sacrifice. Because the Father is perfect, the Father could not bring people who were imperfect to salvation. The LAW demanded perfect obedience. Christ's expiation allowed the Father to substitute Grace for Law when judging us. Grace makes allowances for our imperfections. That is why our efforts, so imperfect, God can now find pleasing.
Another thing. The bible is not a textbook to Christianity. You learn by listening to the Church, not by studying something written 2000 years ago for many different reasons and by many different people. Study the bible, but study it with guidance.
Another thing. The bible is not a textbook to Christianity. You learn by listening to the Church, not by studying something written 2000 years ago for many different reasons and by many different people. Study the bible, but study it with guidance.
- Status