Asking the Father for his Spirit.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
940
194
43
67
Australia
#61
but there remain Christians who can speak in tongues today. I don't believe what you are saying is quite accurate.
Are there? Where? I've never heard them. All I've heard is babble. Tongues are actual languages and they must be languages that can be understood by at least one of the hearers if there is no interpreter. They are not just sounds.

Tongues are a sign gift. Their purpose is to point to something. Paul quoted Isaiah to show what their purpose was, ie. to witness to a people who would not listen, hence they are for unbelievers.

We must be guided by what scripture says, not by what we see happening or think we see happening.
 

jacko

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2024
1,019
556
113
#62
Are there? Where? I've never heard them. All I've heard is babble. Tongues are actual languages and they must be languages that can be understood by at least one of the hearers if there is no interpreter. They are not just sounds.

Tongues are a sign gift. Their purpose is to point to something. Paul quoted Isaiah to show what their purpose was, ie. to witness to a people who would not listen, hence they are for unbelievers.

We must be guided by what scripture says, not by what we see happening or think we see happening.

Maybe it’s not for you to hear? But for their own spiritual communications with God through the spirit; private prayer.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
940
194
43
67
Australia
#63
Maybe it’s not for you to hear? But for their own spiritual communications with God through the spirit; private prayer.
That is the very thing Paul told us it is not for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

1Cor.14:20&21
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

Paul clearly sates the purpose of tongues in this passage. It is not a private prayer language.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#64
Except these disciples were not believing in Jesus Christ because they had not heard the Gospel (Acts 19). As for the Acts 8 crowd, at least one was not believing and whose heart was not right with God. Is this why the Lord held out on His promise and waited on the arrival of Peter and John, two disciples who knew the lord better as they were quite often privy to things the other disciples were not?

Prior to Pentecost, believers did not automatically receive the Holy Spirit which is why Jesus said one could ask. The reason for this is because Jesus had not been glorified.

John 7:38&39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Jesus promised to send the Spirit upon His departure and the Lord always keeps His promise. If one has not heard or believed the Gospel then one does not receive the Spirit.

There was an expectation of receiving the Spirit on believing the Gospel as Paul points out in Acts 19.

Acts 19:2
he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

... and Peter in Acts 2

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The question remains, if one does not receive the Spirit when they believe, are they truly believing the Gospel or do they even know what the Gospel is?

As far as signs and wonders accompanying the baptism of the Spirit, we must remember when God does a new thing, signs and wonders are prolific. The Exodus or Christ's ministry for example and now He is establishing the Church so, it is not surprising to see bold and amazing things happen. This is not to say these things cannot happen nowadays but the one thing common to all believers is a changed life. This is the greatest sign of God's work in pouring out the Spirit.
The point is Paul's question, in and of itself, refutes the idea that everyone receives the Holy Ghost automatically upon belief in the gospel message.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#65
Speaking in tongues was given to reveal to unbelieving Jews they had rejected their Messiah. It is no longer necessary today as Israel was judged for their rejection (the fall of Jerusalem) and now wait for the end times when the Lord will restore them.

1Cor.14:20-22
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Paul makes it clear the purpose of tongues was for unbelievers. It is a sign gift which, means it is pointing to something as that is what signs do.
Believers understand they will speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost comes to dwell inside. Whereas in the case of unbelievers, tongues has the ability to draw them to the truth.

How do you suppose Philip and the Samaritans knew they had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:12-17)

Also, The individuals in Acts 19 did not automatically receive the Holy Ghost upon hearing the gospel. The 12 received the Holy Ghost, as revealed through speaking in tongues, after Paul laid hand upon them.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#66
...

We must be guided by what scripture says, not by what we see happening or think we see happening.
Maybe it’s not for you to hear? But for their own spiritual communications with God through the spirit; private prayer.
Be guided by scripture. Rightly dividing the word reveals:
1. Upon being indwelt by the Holy Spirit individuals speak in tongues as initially revealed in Acts 2:4, 33. And further confirmed in scripture. (10:43-48, 19:1-7)

2. The Spiritual gift of tongues is but one that can flow from those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This gift is for edification of the church body. The message given by God is spoken in an unknown tongue. The message is then spoken in the known language by a person via the gift of interpretation. Both speaking in tongues and the interpretation are miraculous manifestations of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)

3. Those indwelt by the Spirit pray in unknown tongues. Paul referenced this in 1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-15, and said do not stop people from speaking in tongues. (verse 39)


I did not understand there was a distinction until God used me to speak a message in tongues in a church setting. The two experiences definitely differ. I know this to be true because I speak in tongues in prayer on a regular basis, whereas the tongues experience in church happened only one time years ago.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#67
That is the very thing Paul told us it is not for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

1Cor.14:20&21
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

Paul clearly sates the purpose of tongues in this passage. It is not a private prayer language.
The scripture you reference does not negate the other things Paul reveals in the same chapter. One of which is the manifestation of speaking in unknown tongues in prayer.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:14
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Cor. 14:15
 

jacko

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2024
1,019
556
113
#68
That is the very thing Paul told us it is not for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

1Cor.14:20&21
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

Paul clearly sates the purpose of tongues in this passage. It is not a private prayer language.


My point is ithat there are many who are stilll blessed with tongues.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,783
624
113
#69
Luke 18:19

King James Version

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

God is good, if you ask him for his Spirit he will give it to you.

(this is from BibleGateway, I think)
Luke 11:13. You know its one of those things if your in a few or allot of Christian forums that oddly like faith never get talked about much if ever. Oh we will touch John 3:16-17 Rom 10:9-10 endlessly but say Luke 11:13. Its just odd to me how Jesus said John 3:16-17 and Luke 11:13. Well really it was GOD that said it. So I believe confess with my mouth John 3:16-17 and Luke 11:13 and YES He said you shall receive power after? The 12/120 men and women there .. already saved yet how odd were told to wait for the promise. Hmm what was it Christ asked the Father do to? Father according to your word Luke 11:13 I ask for the holy Spirit.. PRAISE YOU FATHER.. I thank you for giving me the sweet sweet holy Spirit.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
940
194
43
67
Australia
#70
The point is Paul's question, in and of itself, refutes the idea that everyone receives the Holy Ghost automatically upon belief in the gospel message.
Quite the opposite, Paul's question anticipates one to have the Spirit if one believes otherwise why ask? If you know they won't have the Spirit, there is no need to ask the question.

Believers understand they will speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost comes to dwell inside. Whereas in the case of unbelievers, tongues has the ability to draw them to the truth.

How do you suppose Philip and the Samaritans knew they had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:12-17)

Also, The individuals in Acts 19 did not automatically receive the Holy Ghost upon hearing the gospel. The 12 received the Holy Ghost, as revealed through speaking in tongues, after Paul laid hand upon them.
Only believers who do not understand the purpose of tongues will be deceived into thinking they have to speak in tongues in order to know they have the Spirit. Tongues is a sign to unbelievers which they refuse to hear, so no, it does not lead them to the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord.

And it is taken from here:

Is.28:11&12
For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.


Who said the Acts 8 crowd didn't know? Simon thought the laying on of hands was the way to get the Spirit and great power too. It's what happens when you don't know the promises of God and trust Him to deliver on His word.


You keep taking two instances when the laying on of hands was involved yet ignore the countless believers who received the Spirit without any sign or function of another except the preaching of the Gospel. Why is that?

Be guided by scripture. Rightly dividing the word reveals:
1. Upon being indwelt by the Holy Spirit individuals speak in tongues as initially revealed in Acts 2:4, 33. And further confirmed in scripture. (10:43-48, 19:1-7)

2. The Spiritual gift of tongues is but one that can flow from those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This gift is for edification of the church body. The message given by God is spoken in an unknown tongue. The message is then spoken in the known language by a person via the gift of interpretation. Both speaking in tongues and the interpretation are miraculous manifestations of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)

3. Those indwelt by the Spirit pray in unknown tongues. Paul referenced this in 1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-15, and said do not stop people from speaking in tongues. (verse 39)


I did not understand there was a distinction until God used me to speak a message in tongues in a church setting. The two experiences definitely differ. I know this to be true because I speak in tongues in prayer on a regular basis, whereas the tongues experience in church happened only one time years ago.
1. To what purpose did they speak in tongues? You keep ignoring the purpose.
2. Again you ignore the purpose. It was a sign to unbelieving Jews they were rejecting their Messiah and would be severely disciplined just as they were in Isaiah's day by the Assyrians. This time it would be by Rome in 70AD.
3. Again, it's purpose is not prayer. The reality is, when a believer spoke in tongues it was an unknown language to them and if there were no hearers in the vicinity who spoke that language or if there was no interpreter, Paul basically told them to shut up. There are not two different types of tongue gifts. That is the folly of not dividing the word within context. The gifts were not given for self edification and our experience is not what we measure scripture by.

The gift ceased being given in 70AD for Israel the nation had their last call and it was no longer necessary to give them a sign.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
940
194
43
67
Australia
#71
My point is ithat there are many who are stilll blessed with tongues.
And my point is they're being deceived. I can teach anyone to speak in the tongues (so called) of today. It is merely emotion put into sound bytes.

The biblical tongues were actual known languages, although not known to the speaker. Christians sin but we wouldn't argue it is valid just because it happens. Therefore why consider the gift valid because some babble away and call it tongues?

Scripture is the foundation for our doctrine, not people's experience.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
940
194
43
67
Australia
#72
The scripture you reference does not negate the other things Paul reveals in the same chapter. One of which is the manifestation of speaking in unknown tongues in prayer.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:14
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Cor. 14:15
It doesn't negate, it puts it into context. Paul's message to those who think they can use tongues willy nilly or to bless themselves is ... grow up!

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,064
188
63
#73
The Samaritan account is one that addresses the misconception that the Holy Ghost is immediately received upon being baptized in water. (Acts 19 touches on this as well)

"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women...

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:12-17
Don't mistake receiving the Spirit itself (Acts 2:38) with the physical, miraculous manifestations of the Spirit (commonly referred to as gifts) which required the laying on of the apostle's hands in order to enable their manifistasion
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,759
936
113
62
#74
Luke 11:13 Jesus is speaking

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

We are encouraged to ask in faith as Jesus said and we will receive .
I know I have, and God is no respecter of personals. I am not special or more saved. But I have received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to be a witness.

I can know when the Holy Spirit is telling me to move in His gifts, which include tongues, Healing, Prophesying, and the word of Knowledge. I ask for whatever gift is needed to get the job done.
So this is the same occasion which is meant from the OP, or do you got the Holy Spirit twice? Once when you became born again and second for empowerment?
 
Oct 15, 2024
149
47
28
#75
So this is the same occasion which is meant from the OP, or do you got the Holy Spirit twice? Once when you became born again and second for empowerment?
religion tells you the Holy Spirit will Leave you but if you are in Fathers Hands nothing can separate you from His Love, Love Him with all your Heart and Believe in you self's, don't listen when the enemy sows doubt and fear, he is just trying to break our moral, acts of war my People
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,348
113
#76
So this is the same occasion which is meant from the OP, or do you got the Holy Spirit twice? Once when you became born again and second for empowerment?
You already know the answer to this question as you you have been told it more than once.

The work of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament differed somewhat from His work in the New Testament.

The Holy Spirit today plays a major role in the application of salvation to the individual. It is the Spirit who brings conviction to the unbeliever and causes him to see the truth of the gospel in a clear light. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer permanently. While the child of God may sin and grieve the Spirit, the Spirit will never leave the true believer. The absence of the Holy Spirit is the mark of the unsaved. John 14:26, Romans 8:14 & 8:26.

That is one working the other in the Empowerment of the Holy Spirit, who comes upon one to do an act, work, or be used in the Gifts.

as Jesus said You shall receive power After the Holy Ghost has come upon you" Acts 1:8

Those in the upper room were already saved and Had the Holy Spirit in them. What happened on the day of Pentacost was not for the 120 to be saved but to be empowered. This is clearly seen in The Gospel of John chapter 20: 22.


One Holy Spirit, One Salvation, One Baptism, all works of the Spirit of GOD

FYI, The Holy Spirit does far more for the believer than be inside them. That is what the word of God teaches, as Jesus said in the Gospel of John, chapter 14 through 16
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,759
936
113
62
#77
You already know the answer to this question as you you have been told it more than once.

The work of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament differed somewhat from His work in the New Testament.

The Holy Spirit today plays a major role in the application of salvation to the individual. It is the Spirit who brings conviction to the unbeliever and causes him to see the truth of the gospel in a clear light. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer permanently. While the child of God may sin and grieve the Spirit, the Spirit will never leave the true believer. The absence of the Holy Spirit is the mark of the unsaved. John 14:26, Romans 8:14 & 8:26.

That is one working the other in the Empowerment of the Holy Spirit, who comes upon one to do an act, work, or be used in the Gifts.

as Jesus said You shall receive power After the Holy Ghost has come upon you" Acts 1:8

Those in the upper room were already saved and Had the Holy Spirit in them. What happened on the day of Pentacost was not for the 120 to be saved but to be empowered. This is clearly seen in The Gospel of John chapter 20: 22.


One Holy Spirit, One Salvation, One Baptism, all works of the Spirit of GOD

FYI, The Holy Spirit does far more for the believer than be inside them. That is what the word of God teaches, as Jesus said in the Gospel of John, chapter 14 through 16
Mostly I agree, with your statement, in concern of your point with John 20,22.
It is questionable that all 120 which were in the upperoom was present to receive the Holy Spirit as John 20,22 is reportet.
And John 20,24 says clear that Thomas was not among them. So he missed this expierience.
If you compare then with Acts 10 in Cornelius house, then you found also that they did not had the Holy Spirit (were saved) before the event when they received the Holy Spirit.
✝ Acts 10:44

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

So I cant agree with your point about this.

It is also to mention that only the apostles got the gifts of enpowerment. From the others in the upperoom is not reportet that they got the same Gifts as the apostles got.

The witness in Acts 2,6 was mainly:
✝ Acts 2:6

"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,348
113
#78
Mostly I agree, with your statement, in concern of your point with John 20,22.
It is questionable that all 120 which were in the upperoom was present to receive the Holy Spirit as John 20,22 is reportet.
And John 20,24 says clear that Thomas was not among them. So he missed this expierience.
If you compare then with Acts 10 in Cornelius house, then you found also that they did not had the Holy Spirit (were saved) before the event when they received the Holy Spirit.
✝ Acts 10:44

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

So I cant agree with your point about this.

It is also to mention that only the apostles got the gifts of enpowerment. From the others in the upperoom is not reportet that they got the same Gifts as the apostles got.

The witness in Acts 2,6 was mainly:
✝ Acts 2:6

"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."

No, Thomas was not there at that time; however, what did Thomas say when he saw Jesus ?


26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”



Thus, there is no record of Thomas receiving what Jesus said 8 days earlier. Thomas's statement testifies that he indeed received the Holy Spirit. as 1corthians chapter 12: 3 says :

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Thomas said My Lord and MY GOD! That point of Thomas not being there is irrelevant and clearly the missing of the experience did not happen because he Testifed from His own mouth Calling Jesus God.


The Bible did not have to say Jesus breathed on HIM. It was confirmed by the word Thomas said after Jesus said :

The exact words they first saw Jesus: "Peace to you! " So the Gospel did not have to say or show Thomas experienced the Holy Spirit.
the very Revelation produced the truth of Who Jesus is, and Thomas confessed that. Unless you think Thomas made that statement of his own intellect?

Your point of the house of Cornelius is not what the text says. You are making an assumption.

Read Acts 10


24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. 28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?”

30 So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you.’ 33 So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God.” 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.



1. Peter preached the Gospel to the House of Cornelious
2. The text said they Heard the word verse 44 Past tense
3. at that moment, when they Heard the word received it they were Saved Because the Gospel had been preached by Peter, which they HEARD Past tense. The Holy Spirit then fell on them all. Confirmed by the manifestation of the Holy Spirit's gifts.

So salvation and empowerment can happen at the very same time or even at a later time, as we see the disciples from
Ephesus read Acts 19.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#79
Quite the opposite, Paul's question anticipates one to have the Spirit if one believes otherwise why ask? If you know they won't have the Spirit, there is no need to ask the question.



Only believers who do not understand the purpose of tongues will be deceived into thinking they have to speak in tongues in order to know they have the Spirit. Tongues is a sign to unbelievers which they refuse to hear, so no, it does not lead them to the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord.

And it is taken from here:

Is.28:11&12
For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.


Who said the Acts 8 crowd didn't know? Simon thought the laying on of hands was the way to get the Spirit and great power too. It's what happens when you don't know the promises of God and trust Him to deliver on His word.


You keep taking two instances when the laying on of hands was involved yet ignore the countless believers who received the Spirit without any sign or function of another except the preaching of the Gospel. Why is that?



1. To what purpose did they speak in tongues? You keep ignoring the purpose.
2. Again you ignore the purpose. It was a sign to unbelieving Jews they were rejecting their Messiah and would be severely disciplined just as they were in Isaiah's day by the Assyrians. This time it would be by Rome in 70AD.
3. Again, it's purpose is not prayer. The reality is, when a believer spoke in tongues it was an unknown language to them and if there were no hearers in the vicinity who spoke that language or if there was no interpreter, Paul basically told them to shut up. There are not two different types of tongue gifts. That is the folly of not dividing the word within context. The gifts were not given for self edification and our experience is not what we measure scripture by.

The gift ceased being given in 70AD for Israel the nation had their last call and it was no longer necessary to give them a sign.
Your post clearly contains much personal opinion. And I have to say, I always find it amusing when those who have not had the experience try to educate those who have.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#80
And my point is they're being deceived. I can teach anyone to speak in the tongues (so called) of today. It is merely emotion put into sound bytes.

The biblical tongues were actual known languages, although not known to the speaker. Christians sin but we wouldn't argue it is valid just because it happens. Therefore why consider the gift valid because some babble away and call it tongues?

Scripture is the foundation for our doctrine, not people's experience.
Food for thought...

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost," Jude 17-20

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mark 3:28-29