Baptism and holy spirit

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Well...no man who has experienced the deep communion of praying in spirit walks away not knowing that he has had a deep touch from, and communion with, God. It is not an everyday occurrence for me personally but is more like...the king extending his scepter and allowing me to commune that deeply. Because I had already learned to eat with manners at His table, I was very aware that to try to force this deep communion again because of the great joy I had felt, would be unmannerly. But believe me, I wanted to try to force it again, I just knew not to and knew that it would be wrong to focus avidly on the feeling of pleasure it gave me. I know I am a woman of great appetite (because of my distress the first few times He withheld Himself from my senses), so I held a knife to my throat at the Kings table. I refused the cry of my senses and...put them under, because it is not the purest communion to be giddy in your senses and to crave sensually. The deepest and purest communion is of the spirit and notof the cravings of the senses.

I read where an old saint said that God does not lead some to this understanding on earth and I do not think I agree with it or with the way he puts it. He says something like...God does not call all to as much love while on earth. I rather think that the things He first freely gives us (like tongues for you or that feeling of a sense of His Presence for me) are polluted somewhat by our sensuality and craving and that he takes us through dry times(fasts in spirit) to purify us from the sensual and lead us into more purely spiritual communion. So I think the old saint was seeing some still quite sensual and surmising that God was not going to purify them more.
The question is STILL: what is the Bible talking about when it uses the term "praying in the spirit"?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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wrong read 1cor 12, 13, and 14 . in Chapter 14:13 says " Therefore the person who speaks in another language should pray that he can interpret".

NO you assume it would open to all kinds of fraud , because you do not take the full chapters in context . Did you not read in chapter 14:27-29

" 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.


IN the gift of Tongues and interpretation & prophecy all done must be judge

How? By the word of God . The tongues & prophecy is nothing new but a confrimation of what is already known. If it is not or does not line up with the word of God , they are to BE silent as verse 28 says :
1 Cor 12:10 ...to another the gift of various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Aparently the gift of interpretation is more fruitful than the speaking.

Emphasizes the importance of understanding and knowledge. This as opposed to just speaking for the sake of speaking like was seen in Corinth at this time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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:)
Yep, but what does it MEAN?
It means...a deeper prayer, a deeper communion. It is not praying with complete understanding and is very difficult to describe. Have you read my posts where I try to describe it??? It is a bit uneffable. One cannot exactly draw an outline to describe what it is like. They can mostly only say: I know not what but just know that the King took me into His chambers. YOU try to describe it in minute detail. I dare you! It is difficult and you're left saying: OH!! I know not what! :)
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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Are you referring to Christians speaking in tongues at will?

In 1 Cor 14, Paul gives specific instructions on how the manifestations are to be used in the church. He says that if a person speaks in tongues out loud, he must interpret. If he does not plan to interpret, he should remain silent, and pray to himself and to God. He tells people to do all things decently and in order. He gives a scenario of everyone speaking in tongues at once. I'm sure you can determine the scripture references from 1 Cor 14.

If the operation of speaking in tongues was not under the control of the individual Christians, giving instruction on how to do it properly would be an exercise in futility.

Also, there's this:

1 Cor 14:
32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Ok. That explanation makes sense. Thanks.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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The question is STILL: what is the Bible talking about when it uses the term "praying in the spirit"?
Ephesians 6:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—


Romans 8:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession [a]for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


Jude 1:20
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Did not 1cor 12, 13 and 14 tell us those who speak in touges edify themselves ? here is another verse to confrim that point in Jude 1:20 & Romans 8:26

the answer to your question is in 1cor 14


starting at verse 14

it reads :

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding


the context to praying in the spirit is = tongues I pray in a tongue , my spirit prays= praying in the Spirit
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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It's a shaky thing to be having great communion with God, while He has put someone else on a spiritual fast from His presence, and to think the reason is because you are seeking hard and they aren't. (And you sure won't be helping them in their dryness and seeming darkness but will be actually causing them more distress in it.) Because He is all about working arrogance out of us and replacing it with dependence and humility. So if this is the thoughts of your heart, that you are being blessed because of yourself, sure enough, He will eventually withhold communion for some period of time to cause you to see that you are not the reason of His blessings. There is the verse that says He rewards those who diligently seek Him. But there is also the verse that says, don't ask who will go up to heaven and bring God down to us. They balance each other out in order to bring low what needs to be brought down and to lift what is low that He wishes to bring up. One verse is for lifting the discouraged. The other verse is for lowering the arrogant. Right in the middle in a temperance that walks with understanding of both verses is the safest place to walk. :)
I see it much the same way. If the Spirit intends for me to speak in tongues, I will do so. What I will NOT do is start babbling something, and then come to the conclusion that I was speaking in some unknown tongue.

I never want to limit what the Spirit can/will do in my life. I did go through a period of time where I was convinced I should speak in tongues. I had several others that encouraged me to do so, and they prayed (as did I) and laid hands on me. Nothing. Had I been taught, as some here teach, that if I don't speak in tongues, I don't have the Spirit living in me, it could have been devastating to my walk... fortunately, I had been taught more correctly, that the Spirit will do what the Spirit wills.... it's not up to me...
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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I am saying it's always being offered and it's available to all because all need to worship God in spirit. The bible states that "if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth". Is there any other action we do that is directly stated as being prayer in the spirit?
We are told to "pray without ceasing".... I do that often... but I'm not praying out loud.. it's a silent, inward prayer, as the thoughts/requests come to my mind. To me, that is praying in the Spirit...
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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It means...a deeper prayer, a deeper communion. It is not praying with complete understanding and is very difficult to describe. Have you read my posts where I try to describe it??? It is a bit uneffable. One cannot exactly draw an outline to describe what it is like. They can mostly only say: I know not what but just know that the King took me into His chambers. YOU try to describe it in minute detail. I dare you! It is difficult and you're left saying: OH!! I know not what! :)
I am convinced that according to the Bible, praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.

1 Cor 14:
13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

"Praying in the spirit" (1 Cor 14:13-15), "speaking by the spirit of God" (1 Cor 12:3), "bless with the spirit" (1 Cor 14:16) are all synonymous for speaking in tongues.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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1 Cor 12:10 ...to another the gift of various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Aparently the gift of interpretation is more fruitful than the speaking.

Emphasizes the importance of understanding and knowledge. This as opposed to just speaking for the sake of speaking like was seen in Corinth at this time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
the full context of the three chapters , Paul says as the Holy Spirit leads him in verse 5

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; [a] for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

he said I wish you all spoke but even more prophesied then here said the gift of prophecy is greater UNLESS there is an interpreation which will too edify the church.

Now if the issue is a lesser gift then seek to prophesies . This was not said to oppose what was spoken for the sake of speaking.
1cor 12 tell use what all the unity chapters are for which in clude 13, and 14


verse 1 :
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:

This letter did not oppose The gifts the letter was writtten to instruct on how to properly use the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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I realized a long time ago, amid some confusion, that some things I was reading by some old saints and some things I heard living people say - sounded like they were talking about different things when in actuality, they were all speaking of the same thing and just using the only words they could find to describe it.

For instance, when I say I am so thirsty and He has put me on a fast in spirit, other men will try to describe the same experience but will use different words. They might say: oh man, I really need a word. Or, it's like God won't listen to me right now. Or, has God abandoned me?? Or, it's like all of my light just suddenly disappeared.

To then see these men all get into a vicious argument saying each other is wrong when they are describing the same thing is ridiculous. I wish they could try to set their mind on understanding rather than fighting. (Not that we are viciously fighting in here, but it is being avowed that I have never prayed in the spirit and it puzzles me that they can't read what I've said and make the connection and say, that sounds suspiciously accurate for what I experience when I pray in tongues, maybe I could be wrong in assuming that the only way to pray in the spirit is with tongues. Maybe others really do experience what I have but without words...)

If we could drop our many insistences, I think we would see that God does not speak to each of His children by some formula for one and all.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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...If the Spirit intends for me to speak in tongues, I will do so.
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues....

It should be clear that God wants you to speak in tongues.

How do you think "If the Spirit intends for me to speak in tongues, I will do so"? How do you think you will do so? It will just "happen"? How? Do you believe that God will possess you?

What I will NOT do is start babbling something, and then come to the conclusion that I was speaking in some unknown tongue.
Speaking in tongues is not "babbling". It is you speaking a language you do not know. You move your mouth, utilize your vocal cords. The words come from God.

I never want to limit what the Spirit can/will do in my life. I did go through a period of time where I was convinced I should speak in tongues. I had several others that encouraged me to do so, and they prayed (as did I) and laid hands on me. Nothing. Had I been taught, as some here teach, that if I don't speak in tongues, I don't have the Spirit living in me, it could have been devastating to my walk... fortunately, I had been taught more correctly, that the Spirit will do what the Spirit wills....
It is absolutely not true that if you do not speak in tongues you do not have the Holy Spirit.

it's not up to me...
THAT you speak is indeed up to you.
WHAT you speak is up to God.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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I am convinced that according to the Bible, praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.
Yes, we know you are convinced of this brother. :LOL:
But Paul did not say: to pray in the spirit is to speak in tongues.
He said: if I pray in tongues, I am praying in spirit.
His statement does not say that it is impossible to pray in spirit any other way, for instance, silently and with no words uttered at all.

Has it occurred to you that you have taken away praying in the spirit from a person who is not capable of producing speech of any sort? What about a deaf and dumb mute?
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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Yes, we know you are convinced of this brother. :LOL:
But Paul did not say: to pray in the spirit is to speak in tongues.
He said: if I pray in tongues, I am praying in spirit.
His statement does not say that it is impossible to pray in spirit any other way, for instance, silently and with no words uttered at all.

Has it occurred to you that you have taken away praying in the spirit from a person who is not capable of producing speech of any sort? What about a deaf and dumb mute?
Or what about someone who has had throat cancer and their voice box removed? Are you really willing to say they can never pray in spirit?
 

Deade

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Dec 17, 2017
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It means...a deeper prayer, a deeper communion. It is not praying with complete understanding and is very difficult to describe. Have you read my posts where I try to describe it??? It is a bit uneffable. One cannot exactly draw an outline to describe what it is like. They can mostly only say: I know not what but just know that the King took me into His chambers. YOU try to describe it in minute detail. I dare you! It is difficult and you're left saying: OH!! I know not what! :)
Yes Stunned, sometimes you get a partial picture of what you are praying about, but it goes so fast that you are left in the dust, so to speak.
I am convinced that according to the Bible, praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.

1 Cor 14:
13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

"Praying in the spirit" (1 Cor 14:13-15), "speaking by the spirit of God" (1 Cor 12:3), "bless with the spirit" (1 Cor 14:16) are all synonymous for speaking in tongues.
From these verses, I thought they were saying I could always have understanding. That was when God informed me that it was not always in my best interest to understand everything. It could maybe be a future condition that we might worry about if we knew. We just need to trust God.