Baptism and holy spirit

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Prayer is a need.
Agreed. And a command.

But if God's will is always done, why bother?

Do you think God only works for people with the ability to speak? Do the deaf and numb have a chance with God?
I have no idea why you would ask that question.
 

yellowcanary

Junior Member
May 22, 2018
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I have a thought . Why not just pray to speak in a language that everybody understands (like our own and/or the hearer's native tongue) ? Wouldn't that be more fruitful to all concerned ? Surely this would be pleasing to God, no ?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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I have a thought . Why not just pray to speak in a language that everybody understands (like our own and/or the hearer's native tongue) ? Wouldn't that be more fruitful to all concerned ? Surely this would be pleasing to God, no ?
Have you ever read 1 Corinthians?

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
7,473
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Better results?!!
Truly truly i tell you, there's no such thing as better results, everything that happened was as per the will of God and what do you mean Peter was not limited in flesh?
His according to the will of the Father 3,000 souls in the twinkling of the eye is greater than or better than most likely 500 in three years of the Son of man ministry .

What better gift or greater gift than a newly resurrected soul and new spirit that will never die?
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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Luke 11:13 is not asking for the Holy Spirit. It is asking the Father for salvation and the Holy Spirit is given to those who are saved. Every believer receives the Holy Spirit when they are converted. It is the Holy Spirit that seals them unto the day of redemption.

Corinthians says that the Holy Spirit gives the gifts as He willeth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
opening verse of chapter 12 1cor

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. "

as you read on it says this in verse 31

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "

The NLT reads :

"31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts. "

Chapter 14 says

1cor 14:1

Kjv " Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1cor 14:39 "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. "
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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A gift is only a gift because you have not asked for, once you ask for, it ceases to be a gift. If you ask and is given, then the other person complies to some instruction which came in the form of asking- it is compliance, not a gift.
This is just English (and i'm not even an English speaker)- there's no English dictionary that was based on what you and your parents did. All those things that your parent bought for you voluntarily without you asking were gifts but the others were compliance to your instructions.

Biblically- God is God, He doesn't comply to instructions. He has given us free will so that we can actually ask in prayer and it would appear that He complies but it is not so- He already knows what we need before even ask and the answer was ready before we were even born. Again, it is the will of God that happens every time.

About 1 Cor 12/13/14

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.....

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

So your desire for greater gifts can not change the will of God, it is still the will of God that is done.

Luke 11:13 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Holy spirit is a promise to believers and a promise is never asked but is fulfilled. The context of the word ask here is not in the sense as to request just like the gifts are never requested but given. The context of the word ask here is with regards to 'need'. In another passage, we see Jesus say that the Father already knows what you need before you ask- so He gives the holy spirit because the believers need the HS.
If you think the word ask applies only to physical request, then what about the numb & deaf- don't they have place in the kingdom of God. But if it is a need (in the mind), then the promise will just come in automatically as long as they believe.

Do you understand this verse:

John 16: 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

In that day, they will no longer ask because anything they ask the Father will give them.
It is clear here that the ask is a need, they won't need anything in that day because their needs will be met before they raise a question. And this is how gifts are issued.
a gift remains a gift so that you remeber who it was that gave it to you . God honors HIS word It was God who said I have placed my word above my Name . Ps 138:2
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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Of course NO, big NO.
so if a person prayed for a man or women who had died and they came back you would concider that raising the dead ? Please answer?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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I'm speaking of the manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit called speaking in tongues.

Tongues are incomprehensible to the person speaking (1 Cor 14:2). And since people who meet together generally all speak the same language, they will be incomprehensible to others, as well. That's why Paul instructs that when spoken out loud in the church, tongues must always be interpreted.
1 Cor 12:
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

When you are talking about gifts, don't limit yourself to speaking in tongues only, there should be as many healers/prophets/miracle workers/ interpreters as there are speakers in tongues- this is what we call a body. This body with different parts is what we don't see in churches today.
Speaking in tongues is not something that can be proven or disprove easily, so surely, this 'spirit' that has skewed distribution of gifts is to be doubted, for it has the body shapeless by over expressing one part (speaking in tongues) yet other parts are not there.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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so if a person prayed for a man or women who had died and they came back you would concider that raising the dead ? Please answer?
so if a person prayed for a man or women who had died and they came back you would concider that raising the dead ? Please answer?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Agreed. And a command.

But if God's will is always done, why bother?


I have no idea why you would ask that question.
A need is a need, you can't call it a bother. No one bothers to need. You can't say why bother to be hungry.

If you thought a prayer is when someone opens their mouth and making known their request by speaking, then the numb & deaf have no chance in God's kingdom, for they don't have the ability to speak or ask or 'pray' so to speak.
But if you say they can petition God in their mind/heart without pronouncing a word, then that is a need- exactly what i'm talking about.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,075
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His according to the will of the Father 3,000 souls in the twinkling of the eye is greater than or better than most likely 500 in three years of the Son of man ministry .

What better gift or greater gift than a newly resurrected soul and new spirit that will never die?
The the appointment of Peter is a greater work for without the appointment then the 3000 wouldn't have realized.

Works means works and not gospel and you can not pit Peter vs Jesus who is God.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,075
270
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opening verse of chapter 12 1cor

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. "

as you read on it says this in verse 31

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "

The NLT reads :

"31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts. "

Chapter 14 says

1cor 14:1

Kjv " Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1cor 14:39 "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. "

1 Cor 12:11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines....
...18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

It doesn't really matter what you desire- you are urged to desire but if your desire is not as per the will of God, it won't happen.

Isa 40:13Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or who has given Him counsel?14Whom did He consult to enlighten Him, and who taught Him the paths of justice? Who imparted knowledge to Him and showed Him the way of understanding?…
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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a gift remains a gift so that you remeber who it was that gave it to you . God honors HIS word It was God who said I have placed my word above my Name . Ps 138:2
Still a gift is not asked/requested for, once it is requested it is no longer a gift.:p
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
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1 Cor 12:
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
Great scripture.

When you are talking about gifts, don't limit yourself to speaking in tongues only
We are discussing the manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

there should be as many healers/prophets/miracle workers/ interpreters as there are speakers in tongues
According to who/what? Where is that in the Bible?

This is in the Bible:
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

God would like all Christians to speak in tongues, and prophesy. We are told to covet to prophesy. These are manifestations that any Christian can choose to do. We are told to always be praying in the spirit (Eph 6:18), and we know from 1 Cor 14:14-15 that praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.

While every Christian has the ability to operate all of the manifestations, the manifestations of gifts of healings and miracles require revelation from God, they are not something we can do on a whim. Also, we cannot just demand God to give us a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom, but we can ask.

this is what we call a body. This body with different parts is what we don't see in churches today.
Of course we do.

Speaking in tongues is not something that can be proven or disprove easily, so surely, this 'spirit' that has skewed distribution of gifts is to be doubted, for it has the body shapeless by over expressing one part (speaking in tongues) yet other parts are not there.
Your conclusion is based on a false premise.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
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A need is a need, you can't call it a bother. No one bothers to need. You can't say why bother to be hungry.
I do not know what your point is.

If you thought a prayer is when someone opens their mouth and making known their request by speaking, then the numb & deaf have no chance in God's kingdom, for they don't have the ability to speak or ask or 'pray' so to speak.
But if you say they can petition God in their mind/heart without pronouncing a word, then that is a need- exactly what i'm talking about.
I do not think all prayers must be vocal.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
457
83
1 Cor 12:11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines....
...18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

It doesn't really matter what you desire- you are urged to desire but if your desire is not as per the will of God, it won't happen.

Here is the will of God.


1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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Still a gift is not asked/requested for, once it is requested it is no longer a gift.:p
wrong , you can ask for a gift, and it can be given and it will still be a gift because you did not earn it. the gift of salvation is no longer a gift once you have it? wrong.

and you did not answer my question

"so if a person prayed for a man or women who had died and they came back you would concider that raising the dead ? Please answer? "
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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so if a person prayed for a man or women who had died and they came back you would concider that raising the dead ? Please answer?
First of all, when is a person considered dead?
a) Is it when life leaves the body
b) When death comes to the body
c) Both a & b

NB. The scriptures considers death and life as persons (life-God/Death-satan)
Now that life and death are not things that we can isolate and empirically prove their leaving or coming- it would be very difficult say that one has died within a short period of time.

secondly, if a person is prayed to and comes back to life, is it that:
a) life comes back to them
b) Death goes
c) both

Thirdly, scriptural, we are in harvest time, so technically there's no coming back from the harvest Rev 14:14-20

And my short answer to the question is- i will not believe it.
Tell me a story.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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First of all, when is a person considered dead?
a) Is it when life leaves the body
b) When death comes to the body
c) Both a & b

NB. The scriptures considers death and life as persons (life-God/Death-satan)
Now that life and death are not things that we can isolate and empirically prove their leaving or coming- it would be very difficult say that one has died within a short period of time.

secondly, if a person is prayed to and comes back to life, is it that:
a) life comes back to them
b) Death goes
c) both

Thirdly, scriptural, we are in harvest time, so technically there's no coming back from the harvest Rev 14:14-20

And my short answer to the question is- i will not believe it.
Tell me a story.
how do you know or come to the understanding of what is considered dead? and when does life leave the body and who determines this today ? who is it that determs both A & b?