Baptism of fire

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Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,740
1,842
113
#1
I have heard numerous people over the years say they have received the "baptism of fire." The Bible describes what the baptism of fire is and it is not the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit baptism is the one we want. The baptism of fire is a reference to hellfire and we do not want that.

Verses often cited for what the baptism of fire is reveal a context that describes useless dead trees and chaff thrown into an unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for 'wheat' which is just figurative language used to describe those who are saved. Jesus will gather His wheat into His barn.

Those who receive the baptism of fire is not what people sometimes think it is; again, it is a reference to hellfire.

(Underlines added by me)
Matthew 3:10-12 (KJV)
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
2,821
838
113
#2
I have heard numerous people over the years say they have received the "baptism of fire." The Bible describes what the baptism of fire is and it is not the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit baptism is the one we want. The baptism of fire is a reference to hellfire and we do not want that.

Verses often cited for what the baptism of fire is reveal a context that describes useless dead trees and chaff thrown into an unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for 'wheat' which is just figurative language used to describe those who are saved. Jesus will gather His wheat into His barn.

Those who receive the baptism of fire is not what people sometimes think it is; again, it is a reference to hellfire.

(Underlines added by me)
Matthew 3:10-12 (KJV)
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
baptism of fire is not the same as being cast into the fire brother

consider that John didn’t baptize with the spirit but with water for remission and he’s saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that reference actually is brother is a reference to the refiners fire of the gospel

John the Baptist and Jesus in a prophecy

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

to hear the gospel and believe becomes a refiners fire and fullers soap it works to purify the heart and mind in Christ which purifies the actions . The fire in that reference is the truth of the word of God through Christ

When a believer faces the gospel that Jesus preached and taught it becomes a fire that destroys the strongholds in our hearts that lead us to sin . His word is able to burn up the problem that leads us to obey sin

this is where his fire works in us

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we need this in our heart of faith to correct that issue

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to believe Jesus word becomes a fire that refines our heart and mind in Christ
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
5,904
1,838
113
#3
baptism of fire is not the same as being cast into the fire brother

consider that John didn’t baptize with the spirit but with water for remission and he’s saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that reference actually is brother is a reference to the refiners fire of the gospel

John the Baptist and Jesus in a prophecy

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

to hear the gospel and believe becomes a refiners fire and fullers soap it works to purify the heart and mind in Christ which purifies the actions . The fire in that reference is the truth of the word of God through Christ

When a believer faces the gospel that Jesus preached and taught it becomes a fire that destroys the strongholds in our hearts that lead us to sin . His word is able to burn up the problem that leads us to obey sin

this is where his fire works in us

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we need this in our heart of faith to correct that issue

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to believe Jesus word becomes a fire that refines our heart and mind in Christ
Here are some other verses that refer to fire in scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

2 Thes. 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

Exodus 24: 17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,740
1,842
113
#4
baptism of fire is not the same as being cast into the fire brother

consider that John didn’t baptize with the spirit but with water for remission and he’s saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that reference actually is brother is a reference to the refiners fire of the gospel

John the Baptist and Jesus in a prophecy

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

to hear the gospel and believe becomes a refiners fire and fullers soap it works to purify the heart and mind in Christ which purifies the actions . The fire in that reference is the truth of the word of God through Christ

When a believer faces the gospel that Jesus preached and taught it becomes a fire that destroys the strongholds in our hearts that lead us to sin . His word is able to burn up the problem that leads us to obey sin

this is where his fire works in us

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we need this in our heart of faith to correct that issue

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to believe Jesus word becomes a fire that refines our heart and mind in Christ
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a supernatural immersion into the spiritual body of Christ. It is distinctly separate from water baptism and fire baptism.

There are other verses on this, but I provided a concise list for your convenience:
Galatians 3:27
Romans 6:1-4

Jesus reiterates this same point in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares:

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Again, the same exact language is being used here to describe two distinct things. Chaff will receive a baptism fire. Wheat are those who will go into Jesus' barn and be saved. Those who are saved have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
2,821
838
113
#5
Here are some other verses that refer to fire in scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

2 Thes. 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

Exodus 24: 17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
“Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭23:29‬ ‭

“Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭5:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Some would be destroyed by the gospels fire because they refuse to repent , That’s in fact a warning in Hebrews when we continue in willful sin , having believed we are throwing ourselves into an all consuming fire that the op has confused with the baptism of fire the word is the fire either way it can cleanse and purify believers and it will condemn the others both will experience fire either now in this life or then later



“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Despising The laws punishment was harsh on the flesh it was death , but to despise the gospel leaves ones eternal soul in punishment because we’re talking about the blood of bulls and goats and Moses word v the word and blood of Gods beloved son

because what’s been done is so much better to reject it is so much worse

baptism of fire comes through believing the word of the gospel that is able to burn up the things in our heart that lead us to sin it’s based upon believing the word

This is fire for an adulterer and fornicator who believe the word he spoke understanding who he is

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is meant to create a removal
Of the list because one believes it turns our attention to the root cause of sin

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭

the roots of sin are in our heart like Jesus taught. The listful thoughts , the grudges and hate we harbor and cultivate , the greed and pride we walk in all things like that is the one and only reason we commit any sin at all it’s what is in our heart of faith coming out

the gospel is able to burn up the sinful roots and replace them with the right understanding from God all based upon what Jesus Christ taught about God

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And
we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to know the true God is eternal life and the only place to know God is to know Christ in the gospel and believe his word does the rest we have to believe it to know him
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#6
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I agree that the context of fire before and after verse 11 is about judgment. And yet the question remains, "what is the Greek structure of the sentence in verse 11? Is it the same as the English. In the English it appears to be saying that the same person who will be baptized in the Holy Spirit will be baptized in fire.

Now we know that our ministry works and teachings will be tried by the fire at the Bema seat of Christ to show whether it is wood, hay stubble or precious stones, if it is wood, hay, stubble it burns up but we are still saved so that is not the fire that burns up the bad branches or chaff.

If the same person baptized in the Holy Spirit is also baptized in fire and it is not the fire of the Bema Seat, and not the fire of the chaff and bad branches, then what fire is it? Is it Zeal for the Lord? Is it Sanctification of holiness? Is it Gifts of the Spirit? Are the cloven tongues life as of fire that sat over the heads of each of the 120 on the day of Pentecost a sign that they were being baptized in the Holy Spirit and with fire?

Even though it seems obvious to you that the context is talking about a fire of Judgment and exegesis on verse 11 must be done to determine if the Greek clearly means that the same person baptized in the Holy Spirit is also baptized in fire. If that is the case then it is not true that it CLEARLY says that the one baptized in fire is the chaff or the bad branch. The question is what does verse 11 CLEARLY state in the Greek.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
423
131
43
#7
If the same person baptized in the Holy Spirit is also baptized in fire and it is not the fire of the Bema Seat, and not the fire of the chaff and bad branches, then what fire is it?
"For our God is a consuming fire" - Heb 12:29
 
Mar 14, 2011
75,590
17,283
113
#8
I have heard numerous people over the years say they have received the "baptism of fire." The Bible describes what the baptism of fire is and it is not the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit baptism is the one we want. The baptism of fire is a reference to hellfire and we do not want that.

Verses often cited for what the baptism of fire is reveal a context that describes useless dead trees and chaff thrown into an unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for 'wheat' which is just figurative language used to describe those who are saved. Jesus will gather His wheat into His barn.

Those who receive the baptism of fire is not what people sometimes think it is; again, it is a reference to hellfire.

(Underlines added by me)
Matthew 3:10-12 (KJV)
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Sadly there will be some who refuse to see this biblical truth
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,372
7,550
113
#9
Those who receive the baptism of fire is not what people sometimes think it is; again, it is a reference to hellfire.
That is correct, and the context supports this interpretation. John the Baptist was presenting two baptisms and two outcome -- one for salvation and one for damnation.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#10
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a supernatural immersion into the spiritual body of Christ. It is distinctly separate from water baptism and fire baptism.

There are other verses on this, but I provided a concise list for your convenience:
Galatians 3:27
Romans 6:1-4

Jesus reiterates this same point in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares:

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Again, the same exact language is being used here to describe two distinct things. Chaff will receive a baptism fire. Wheat are those who will go into Jesus' barn and be saved. Those who are saved have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The Greek words in verse 11 are referring to the same person being baptized in both the Holy Spirit and fire which is why those with expert knowledge in Koine Greek are so persuaded that he was talking about a spiritual fire that comes with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This interpretation has lasted all these centuries not because people were complete idiots and did not notice the fire in the context about the branches or the chaff. It was the way that the Greek specifically says that Jesus will baptize YOU with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Then we have that exact prophecy fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit and some sort of spiritual fire was manifested upon each of them. This is why people believe this, not because they are bufoons and can't read and not because they don't agree with considering context but because of the Greek structure of verse 11 and the fulfilment included tongues of flame like as of fire on the day of Pentecost when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It should not come as a shock to you that people think that this is a more accurate interpretation.

It is not one of those obvious mistakes of interpretation that we have two views. An obvious mistake of interpretation would be like when people say that "as a man thinketh in his heart so is he" or when they shorten it to "as a man thinketh...so is he" and teach that the Bible says that if you think you are successful you will become successful when we look at the context of that verse it is talking about someone thinking ill of you in their heart but pretending to be nice, and means "who they really are is what they are thinking in their heart" and has nothting to do with the way it is used in popular preaching.

This baptism in fire text is not as cut and dry a mistake as you might think it is.

What do I think? I am leaning toward a spiritual fire because of the manifestation when the prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. I cannot ignore those cloven tongues "like as fire" that seem to be for the sole purpose of demonstrating this prophesy was being fulfilled. I also have witnessed first hand for 40 years (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1981) how those how have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues have become powerful soul winners and preachers and live in a power of God that we often like to call "on fire for God" as this really is a great description of their attitude and burning desire to live 24x7 doing the work of the ministry of evangelism. It is real and it is available to every believer who seeks Him as they did in the upper room.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
423
131
43
#11
That is correct, and the context supports this interpretation. John the Baptist was presenting two baptisms and two outcome -- one for salvation and one for damnation.
I do not see how this interpretation would be necessarily true. Had the phrasing been "Holy Spirit OR fire" I might agree, but this is not what was written.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,740
1,842
113
#12
The Greek words in verse 11 are referring to the same person being baptized in both the Holy Spirit and fire which is why those with expert knowledge in Koine Greek are so persuaded that he was talking about a spiritual fire that comes with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This interpretation has lasted all these centuries not because people were complete idiots and did not notice the fire in the context about the branches or the chaff. It was the way that the Greek specifically says that Jesus will baptize YOU with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Then we have that exact prophecy fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit and some sort of spiritual fire was manifested upon each of them. This is why people believe this, not because they are bufoons and can't read and not because they don't agree with considering context but because of the Greek structure of verse 11 and the fulfilment included tongues of flame like as of fire on the day of Pentecost when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It should not come as a shock to you that people think that this is a more accurate interpretation.

It is not one of those obvious mistakes of interpretation that we have two views. An obvious mistake of interpretation would be like when people say that "as a man thinketh in his heart so is he" or when they shorten it to "as a man thinketh...so is he" and teach that the Bible says that if you think you are successful you will become successful when we look at the context of that verse it is talking about someone thinking ill of you in their heart but pretending to be nice, and means "who they really are is what they are thinking in their heart" and has nothting to do with the way it is used in popular preaching.

This baptism in fire text is not as cut and dry a mistake as you might think it is.

What do I think? I am leaning toward a spiritual fire because of the manifestation when the prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. I cannot ignore those cloven tongues "like as fire" that seem to be for the sole purpose of demonstrating this prophesy was being fulfilled. I also have witnessed first hand for 40 years (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1981) how those how have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues have become powerful soul winners and preachers and live in a power of God that we often like to call "on fire for God" as this really is a great description of their attitude and burning desire to live 24x7 doing the work of the ministry of evangelism. It is real and it is available to every believer who seeks Him as they did in the upper room.
I took that into account. I understand that the way the sentence is structured that it sounds like it is speaking to an individual. In fact, John the Baptist is speaking to a group of people:

Matthew 3:7
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John is generalizing to his audience of many Pharisees and Sadducees: "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

Someone cannot simultaneous be a dead tree/weeds destined for the fire pit while also being wheat ready for the store house. There isn't a neat way to mesh this scripture with logic without making the fire baptism and Holy Spirit baptism two distinct judgements that God will deal out to individuals.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#14
I took that into account. I understand that the way the sentence is structured that it sounds like it is speaking to an individual. In fact, John the Baptist is speaking to a group of people:

Matthew 3:7
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John is generalizing to his audience of many Pharisees and Sadducees: "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

Someone cannot simultaneous be a dead tree/weeds destined for the fire pit while also being wheat ready for the store house. There isn't a neat way to mesh this scripture with logic without making the fire baptism and Holy Spirit baptism two distinct judgements that God will deal out to individuals.
There is a way to make them one, when we look at the fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 those cloven tongues of fire appear to be there for the sole purpose of making it manifest that this very prophecy was being fulfilled. It is difficult to completely discount that idea. It is not unreasonable to think that this is a direct reference to this prophesy.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
6,249
5,250
113
#15
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that reference actually is brother is a reference to the refiners fire of the gospel
I have heard of this also...

Hebrews
12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#16
There is a way to make them one, when we look at the fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 those cloven tongues of fire appear to be there for the sole purpose of making it manifest that this very prophecy was being fulfilled. It is difficult to completely discount that idea. It is not unreasonable to think that this is a direct reference to this prophesy.
Fire as a symbol is applied to a lot of different subjects in the Bible. I believe there is a scripture that says the Holy Spirit can be quenched, that God is an all-consuming fire, then there is the fire imagery of Acts 2 in the upper room on Pentecost, then there is hell fire: they are not all related even if they are used in the same sentence sometimes.

So I am of the interpretation that saying there is a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism could be easily interpreted as either being the same thing or two parts to a single process, but, The explanation of what happens to wheat and what happens to dead trees is enough to settle it for me.

I think the parable of the wheat and the tares supplements the narrative of the Holy Spirit baptism and fire baptism being two different things. What do you think after looking at Matthew 13:24-30?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#17
I have heard of this also...

Hebrews
12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
amen that’s a wonderful connection thanks for dropping a bit of wisdom God bless
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#18
Fire as a symbol is applied to a lot of different subjects in the Bible. I believe there is a scripture that says the Holy Spirit can be quenched, that God is an all-consuming fire, then there is the fire imagery of Acts 2 in the upper room on Pentecost, then there is hell fire: they are not all related even if they are used in the same sentence sometimes.

So I am of the interpretation that saying there is a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism could be easily interpreted as either being the same thing or two parts to a single process, but, The explanation of what happens to wheat and what happens to dead trees is enough to settle it for me.

I think the parable of the wheat and the tares supplements the narrative of the Holy Spirit baptism and fire baptism being two different things. What do you think after looking at Matthew 13:24-30?
There is no question that fire awaits the chaff, and the fruitless branches and the tares. And I have often thought that Matt 3:11 might be referring to this. What stops me from deciding on it, is this Baptism word.

Does he ever talk about it as a baptism of fire. If he did, it would make it conclusive wouldn't it?

Jesus talks about having a baptism to undergo. That was believed to mean his suffering. So we see him talking about something called a baptism that is believed to be a spiritual reference. This reference would more likely add weight to the idea of a spiritual baptism of fire.

I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:49-50
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
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#19
Someone cannot simultaneous be a dead tree/weeds destined for the fire pit while also being wheat ready for the store house. There isn't a neat way to mesh this scripture with logic without making the fire baptism and Holy Spirit baptism two distinct judgements that God will deal out to individuals.
The Aramaic translation for Luke 3:16 is "He will baptize you into the Spirit of the Holy One and in light."

The AMP version of Luke 3:16 goes the opposite way and interprets "HS and fire" as "HS or fire": "John answered them all by saying, “As for me, I baptize you [only] with water; but One who is mightier [more powerful, more noble] than I is coming, and I am not fit to untie the strap of His sandals [even as His slave]. He will baptize you [who truly repent] with the Holy Spirit and [you who remain unrepentant] with fire."

But AMP tempers this interpretation with a footnote: "Some scholars view “fire” as judgment; however, another view of “fire” purports that the text refers to the fiery baptism of the Holy Spirit, not judgment. The Holy Spirit promised here has been associated with Pentecost, purification, testing, and judgment. Each person who accepts Jesus is filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5-8). According to this view the fire indicates that the believer is purified as in the refining of gold. Fire burns up the impurities and the gold (the believer) survives (cf 1 Cor 3:12, 13; James 1:3)."

If we look at the KJV 1 Cor 3:12-15, it says:
"11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."


Fire doesn't necessarily mean hell and damnation.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#20
Fire as a symbol is applied to a lot of different subjects in the Bible. I believe there is a scripture that says the Holy Spirit can be quenched, that God is an all-consuming fire, then there is the fire imagery of Acts 2 in the upper room on Pentecost, then there is hell fire: they are not all related even if they are used in the same sentence sometimes.

So I am of the interpretation that saying there is a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism could be easily interpreted as either being the same thing or two parts to a single process, but, The explanation of what happens to wheat and what happens to dead trees is enough to settle it for me.

I think the parable of the wheat and the tares supplements the narrative of the Holy Spirit baptism and fire baptism being two different things. What do you think after looking at Matthew 13:24-30?

I do not see how this interpretation would be necessarily true. Had the phrasing been "Holy Spirit OR fire" I might agree, but this is not what was written.
given that it’s John the Baptist preaching about Jesus who was coming directly after him it seems it ties directly here

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver:

‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We understand this is a prophecy of johns ministry which was to prepare the people for christs ministry remitting thier sins through baptism of repentance and remission

I think Malachi there leads us into the gospel

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water:

but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I chose mark there for the Malachi reference but we see the fire reference is in Matthew which gives us a fuller view of johns ministry

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:

but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in my mind that has to tie to the prophecy of the refining fire Jesus brought just after johns ministry which is ultimately thisnisnwhatbcame rightbafter John

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


A refiners fire works to purify metal , burning up all the impurities in it it’s the only way to make an impure price of silver pure is to set it to the refiners fire and burn up the waste that doesn’t belong

the gospel is capable of doing that to a believers heart which cleans up their actions and it isn’t thier struggle and effort but their belief and acceptance in being refined by the master metal worker