Believers vs Disciples

[aprodigal1]

I realize all disciples are rightfully considered believers. But I'm having a hard time grouping all believers as disciples.

Being that we are ALL called to be disciples, I hesitate to use this term when speaking of some that I know because it is hard to see fruit of repentance or the trait of a disciplined learner of the Way, that would actually define what a true disciple is.

James said that even the demons beleive, but that obviouse would not make them disciples.

 

[Slepsog4]

Ideally the terms should be used interchangeably. I would suggest that a persons status as a believer can be verified by His discipleship.

 

[MaggieMye]

Not all believers are disciples. Disciples are those THAT FOLLOW; those that OBEY. Satan believes yet does neither of those. My husband 'believes' that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior, but he does not follow or obey or read the Word. He does not DO the Word of God.
Clear?
Maggie

 

[wattie]

Yeah, once someone is saved.. the don't automatically become a disciple I would have thought. Actually following Jesus is not a HAVE to.. . but something you choose to do out of love what He has done for at salvation, and what He is doing in you now.

Salvation isn't turning your whole life around on teh spot and promising God that you will serve Him the rest of your life.. it is accepting that you are a sinner and asking for forgiveness of sin from Jesus.. and asking for eternal life. 100 percent Jesus.. zero percent us- all we do is ask Him for salvation.. ask Him in.

So to be a disciple - takes discipline and perseverance.. but it isn't a requirement of salvation. Commands of Jesus Christ don't carry condemnation with them for saved people.. only discipline, rebuke and correction if not obeyed.

 

[aprodigal1]

I think that is what is wrong with some of the ways we present the gospel. Instead of presenting the gospel the way Jesus did like to the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-23, we present the gospel to folks like Jesus is some sort of Santa Clause or Genie in the bottle.

I remember street witnessing with a group, and the conversation always went something like this:

Me: Do you know where going to spend eternity if you die today?

Stranger: No, and I don't have time for this right now!

Me: Well, If you die today don't you want to make sure you will spend eternity in heaven?

Stranger: I guess, who wants to go to hell?

Me: Great, all you have to do is pray this simple prayer plus mean it and your in!

Stranger: That's it?

Me: That's it!

Me/Stranger: Praying the sinners prayer

Me: Okay that's it congratulations, oh by the way here's a flier from our church, hope to see you there!!

 

[aprodigal1]

Today I see it soo much different.

#1: Explaining the weight of sin and how I'm DEAD in it.

#2 Explaining how God requires a payment for ALL past, present and future sins

#3: Explaining how Jesus was the only perfect sacrifice and payment that God would except on behalf of ALL sinners, not only for all of man kind, but all my personal sins as well.

#4: Denying oneself and the need to pick up your cross daily and following the Lord.

#5: Explaining that sanctification is a life long process we go through and we achieve this by help from the Holy Spirit, reading God's Word and keeping ourselves accountable (or discipleship).

I find that when I try to present all these items in the gospel message compared to the way I used to, I don't have that great of a response.

But if one responds to these truths and desire to abandon there lives for Christ's I would have to say these folks are more then just believers, they are disciples.

So I believe a lot the weight of who is a disciple vs who is just a believer falls on me and the way I present the gospel.

Does that make any sense?

 

[MaggieMye]

Actually, following Jesus IS a 'have to'. IF there is no desire to follow Him, then there is no transformation which come from truly being born of God. WHEN WE COMMIT to Him, He begins to fill us with a hunger and thirst for Him. If that is not there, that desire for more of Him, then there's been NO RENEWAL and the person simply recited words quoted by another person.
Maggie

 

[aprodigal1]

Salvation isn't turning your whole life around on the spot and promising God that you will serve Him the rest of your life.. it is accepting that you are a sinner and asking for forgiveness of sin from Jesus.. and asking for eternal life.

Repentance IS turning your life around on the spot and agreeing with God by confessing that you have offended Him by your sin.

Next, striving for holiness and righteousness is the goal aside from heaven. I know I will never achieve this on my own or even while I'm still here on this earth, but I need to make every attempt to with the help of the Holy Spirit to put away sin and put on righteousness because that is what God requires of me.

Finally, I am motivated to do all this by knowing that by the grace of God He sees me as perfect the same way He see's Christ. Also, by understanding what I have been saved from, and how gracious God was to choose me for salvation, I have no other choice but to serve Him faithfully and abandon my life for His glory.

I pray this would be the understanding of every disciple as well as every believer, "I think?"

 

[aprodigal1]

Actually, following Jesus IS a 'have to'. IF there is no desire to follow Him, then there is no transformation which come from truly being born of God. WHEN WE COMMIT to Him, He begins to fill us with a hunger and thirst for Him. If that is not there, that desire for more of Him, then there's been NO RENEWAL and the person simply recited words quoted by another person.
Maggie

That is so true. You never see Jesus commanding one to say a prayer for salvation. He simply offers sinners the opprotunity to "Follow Him".

 

[wattie]

Hang on. When I am talking about asking Jesus for salvation.. I do mean that it comes from the heart! Just saying a bunch of words - like repeating back what someone else says.. ain't it. But consider these verses:

Rom 10:8-13 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

notice- salvation through confessing that Jesus is Lord from the heart.. calling out to Jesus for salvation. And that from doing this a person is saved.. and shall (will) not be ashamed.

(Joh 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:



(Joh 3:16-18) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.. the word believe when you look at the Greek on which it is based.. means to commit or entrust..

So.. entrusting your salvation with Jesus .. He then will not condemn you.

This isn't a Santa Claus fluffy Jesus.. this is a Jesus who pays for your sins past present and future by His sacrifice on the Cross..

if you think that there are requirements after salvation to keep it: what about this?

(Col 2:13-15) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

There are no HAVE tos with Christianity.. that is what makes it different from religion.. no rituals requirement.. no special tasks.. it is a personal relationship with Jesus..

I know what you will say.. that I think you can go and do whatever you want.. well

the truth is that those who believe that they are truly free also understand how much grace has been given to make them free.. and so want to serve God out of the love He has for them. If you know you are completely secure in Him.. would you not love that and love Him?

Repentance.. is a change of mind.. this happens initially at salvation.. acknowledging you are a sinner and need saving.. Jesus then seals you with the Holy Spirit. This is saving faith.. Romans chapter 10, Acts chapter 2.. many many verses in John.. verses in Colossians etc..

Then there is daily faith.. which is not dependent on salvation.. sanctification .. following Jesus.. this is where 'faith without works is dead' comes in.. where if you don use your faith to help others it is dormant and unused.. not lost.. not that you never had it. Remember that for the verse 'faith without works is dead' the context is about acts of service.. not receiving eternal life from Jesus.

Abraham was justified by works in that God accepted His act as a righteous act pleasing God.
Abraham was not justified by works in that he was eternally saved by this act.

Rahab was justified by works in that when she hid those men.... God was pleased with her righteous act toward Him.
Rahab was not justified by works in that she was eternally saved by this act.

This is the key distinction.. saving faith and daily faith.. they are not dependent on each-other.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not (will not) perish, but have eternal life. Remember that shall in the bible carries with it a much more certain meaning of WILL than todays English- check out the Greek behind the word 'shall'

If Jesus says that if someone believes in Him.. entrusts their salvation with Him.. Has eternal life.. then they do!

 

[aprodigal1]

wattie, I agree with what you are saying,

notice- salvation through confessing that Jesus is Lord from the heart.. calling out to Jesus for salvation. And that from doing this a person is saved.. and shall (will) not be ashamed.

But I also believe Paul is speaking of the deep, personal, abiding conviction that, without any reservation or qualification, will confess … Jesus as Lord, that is, will confess that Jesus is the believer’s own sovereign, ruling Lord, in whom alone he trusts for salvation and to whom he submits.

 

[aprodigal1]

if you think that there are requirements after salvation to keep it

I don't believe any such thing, In fact I really don't believe a true disciple has anything to do with the salvation process, period:

Ephesians 2:1-10​

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



Paul insists, because of the wonderful gift of salvation that a disciple has no other choice but to perform and walk in the GOOD WORKS he was initially created for.

​

 

[aprodigal1]

those who believe that they are truly free also understand how much grace has been given to make them free.. and so want to serve God out of the love He has for them. If you know you are completely secure in Him.. would you not love that and love Him?

I agree with you here as well and I think your point is supported by the following verse:

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.​

Disciples are to make a continuing, sustained effort to work out to ultimate completion their salvation, which has been graciously granted to them by God through their faith in Jesus Christ. This is achieved by the personal conduct of a disciple and the perseverance of the disciple. Fear and Trembling are very strong words meaning we should never take our salvation lightly understanding the price that was paid to achieve it.

 

[wattie]

I think we are in agreement.. I just don like to get into testing whether someone is saved or not by examining their works. The fruit from being saved can sometimes be very hard to detect.. and is also an internal thing of the heart.. not necessarily manifested by outward acts of service.

I like to think a saved person MAY do good works.. not WILL do good works.

But ya.. we are pretty much the same page