Bible Contraditions

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Aug 25, 2009
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#21
they were instructed to go to war, so they say, by god, therefore, he commanded them to kill. and the ppl they were instructed to kill were not just other "soldiers" but women and children, who were not fighting them. Numbers 3131:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
kill all but the young innocent virgins, and "take' them for yourselves? shame on you for calling that self defense.
and the golden cheribum were on top of the ark of the covenant, the single most worshiped object in the whole bible. it was kept in a temple of the most high, attended to only by priests, for crying out loud. it was absolutely worshiped.
and shame on you pitiful sir for dismissing the fact that slavery is condoned in the bible.
Leviticus 25:44-46 (King James Version)


44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

and as for Malachi, you consider gods thoughts as differing and separate from his heart or mind? that in itself is yet another contradiction.
and much shame on you for comparing the writings of some poet to the supposed "infallible" word of god. nobody is trying to claim Shakespeare writings as divine the way they do the scriptures. But the real question is: What does the Bible itself say about its own "infallibility"? Actually, it says nothing. The Bible in its current compilation didn't even exist until several centuries after the last book was written. Why are religious zealots so quick to claim divine authorship of a book that doesn't even claim it for itself (with the exception of specific portions of law and prophecy such as "Thus sayeth the Lord...," but not to the modern Bible as a whole)? The Bible was a collection of separate writings (laws, plays, poems, songs, histories and letters) by individual religious commentators who never imagined their writings would ever be considered divine. They are just like modern writers, making commentary and analysis, who just happened to have their works assembled and voted on by later believers who then canonized their words. They refer to the sanctity of sacred scripture (the body already canonized before their time -- such as the Law of Moses and the writings of the Old Testament prophets) never imagining that someday THEIR writings, letters, or whatever will be added to the canon. Paul the Apostle, who clearly believed that the established scripture of his day was inspired (see 2Tim 3:16), also clearly acknowledged that some of his own writings were NOT, as when he wrote in 1 Cor 7:12 "But to the rest speak I, NOT THE LORD..." (emphasis added); and 2 Cor 11:17 "That which I speak, I speak [it] NOT AFTER THE LORD..."
and i will not end by throwing some out of context scripture at you as you have done in response to me. i will say that your the pitiful one, who cant even show how these are not contradictions, but try to rationalize and justify horrible things condoned in the bible. shame on you for that, and i strongly advise u to get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness for confessing to be a christian when you are in fact nothing like christ.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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#22
ryan1976 your the only response ive seen that makes even a little bit of sense. but your main arguement is that something was lost in translation and i still say that if something is allowed to be lost in translation, then how can it be considered, the infallible, incorruptable, perfect word of god?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#23
Asmodeus I wouldn't call these things you posted contradictions, but misunderstandings of the original contexts of the different verses: [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[SIZE=-1]". . . God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
(James:1:13)
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (Genesis 22:1)
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

Context is tempting with evil in James 1:3. Tempt with Abraham in Gen 22:1, means test.
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[SIZE=-1]". . . for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever."
(Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. Thus saith the Lord."
(Jeremiah 17:4) [/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

Consider context again, who is it spoken to, and what time period?



[SIZE=-1]
"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
(John 5:31, J.C. speaking)
"I am one that bear witness of myself . . ."
(John 8:18, J.C. speaking)
[/SIZE]

You failed to note that in John 8:18, he gives the other witnesses:

"my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

John 5:31-32 and the complete verse of 8:18 do not disagree.


[SIZE=-1]
[SIZE=-1]
"I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
(Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time."
(John 1:18)
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]John 1:18 refers to God in heaven. Gen 32:30 is referring to the angel. Moses and Elijah if i remember, were allowed to see God's back, but not his face.


[/SIZE]
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#24
they were instructed to go to war, so they say, by god, therefore, he commanded them to kill. and the ppl they were instructed to kill were not just other "soldiers" but women and children, who were not fighting them. Numbers 3131:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
kill all but the young innocent virgins, and "take' them for yourselves? shame on you for calling that self defense.
and the golden cheribum were on top of the ark of the covenant, the single most worshiped object in the whole bible. it was kept in a temple of the most high, attended to only by priests, for crying out loud. it was absolutely worshiped.
and shame on you pitiful sir for dismissing the fact that slavery is condoned in the bible.
Leviticus 25:44-46 (King James Version)


44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

and as for Malachi, you consider gods thoughts as differing and separate from his heart or mind? that in itself is yet another contradiction.
and much shame on you for comparing the writings of some poet to the supposed "infallible" word of god. nobody is trying to claim Shakespeare writings as divine the way they do the scriptures. But the real question is: What does the Bible itself say about its own "infallibility"? Actually, it says nothing. The Bible in its current compilation didn't even exist until several centuries after the last book was written. Why are religious zealots so quick to claim divine authorship of a book that doesn't even claim it for itself (with the exception of specific portions of law and prophecy such as "Thus sayeth the Lord...," but not to the modern Bible as a whole)? The Bible was a collection of separate writings (laws, plays, poems, songs, histories and letters) by individual religious commentators who never imagined their writings would ever be considered divine. They are just like modern writers, making commentary and analysis, who just happened to have their works assembled and voted on by later believers who then canonized their words. They refer to the sanctity of sacred scripture (the body already canonized before their time -- such as the Law of Moses and the writings of the Old Testament prophets) never imagining that someday THEIR writings, letters, or whatever will be added to the canon. Paul the Apostle, who clearly believed that the established scripture of his day was inspired (see 2Tim 3:16), also clearly acknowledged that some of his own writings were NOT, as when he wrote in 1 Cor 7:12 "But to the rest speak I, NOT THE LORD..." (emphasis added); and 2 Cor 11:17 "That which I speak, I speak [it] NOT AFTER THE LORD..."
and i will not end by throwing some out of context scripture at you as you have done in response to me. i will say that your the pitiful one, who cant even show how these are not contradictions, but try to rationalize and justify horrible things condoned in the bible. shame on you for that, and i strongly advise u to get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness for confessing to be a christian when you are in fact nothing like christ.
I told you no matter what I said would not satisfy you. please atleast out of the respect that you claim to have for God use whole verses, i know that asking you to use the contents of the verse would be asking way too much from you.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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#25
i guess i assumed that since u criticized the scriptures i posted and assumed that i had not read the whole bible, that surely you have and were already familiar with the context. you call yourself a pastor after all. i guess having to get out your perfect and inerrant word to look up those scriptures is way too much to ask of you. you have my pity "pastor"
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#26
ryan1976 your the only response ive seen that makes even a little bit of sense. but your main arguement is that something was lost in translation and i still say that if something is allowed to be lost in translation, then how can it be considered, the infallible, incorruptable, perfect word of god?

I do hope you remain respectful of the various beliefs of the people "of faith" on this site because there's a good chance we might actually have a decent conversation..

I wasn't raised Christian and shuddered at the thought of even calling myself one once I started to read the bible. I could relate to the phrase: dear Lord, save me from your followers.

However, having said that. You have presented a TON of questions, same ones I dealt and continue to deal with. The key to reading and understanding what happened in the Old Testament times is that when we read and try to "understand" those times we do so Christologically.

It's weird that Moses kills a man and then runs away into the desert only for God to give him the commandments, "thou shalt not kill".

I can't imagine what Moses was thinking as he heard these commandments, if anything.

The other shocker is that right after the commandments, God's gonna smote the people he just brought out of Egypt b/c they fashioned a golden calf and Aaron of all people is the one that appears to come up with the idea (he sorta passes the buck). Moses appeals to God asking Him not to do such a thing and God agrees.

When I first read that, I was like, whoa....

Then Moses descends from the mountain to see what God already knew (and caused Him to get so angry) and then Moses separates the Levites and kills a bunch of people. Oh, and breaks, literally breaks, the commandments (and has to trek back up the mountain to get them again).

Obviously there's much much more to the story. It's not a simple morality tale. It's layers upon layers.

Then you get to the New Testament and go through the very very strange story of this man that provokes the questions, "who is this that can cast out demons, that even the waters obey, that the demons obey and shudder, that can forgive sins" etc...

And at the end of those stories Jesus explains that he is the one that the Old Testament prophets wrote about and that all those stories, and even the actual living out of those stories, were all designed (not negating man's free-will) to point toward Christ himself!

In regards to how we can still consider the bible Holy and infallible has to do with a lot of things. Is a translation Holy? Why don't we have the original "gospels"? How is it that there are so many interpretations? How did early Christians get along without the New Testament for so long? What is it or who is it that actually preserves the meaning behind all these books? We know that there have been changes made to some of the books, possible additions to certain passages etc. Why were they inserted? Where did they come from? For what reason? Are they trust-worthy? etc.

There are actual answers to all these questions but like I said, I am not sure this thread could hold all the answers to this question. If you are really really sincere and would like to look into these things, it will take you years to find suitable answers. Others will remain mysteries and you'll have to just keep working on it.

However. At the end of the day, it all boils down to faith. Not ignorant faith but a knowledge of the heart. Do we question our Mother's love for us when we are babes? No. Do we say, prove to me that you love me? No. However, we accept it. It's not until we're older that we go through all the various phases of trying to deal with "love".

At the end of the day, and you should try to come to grips with this question first, you have to answer it or everything is meaningless, "Does God love me? Does God love all humans? Is there such thing as love, truth, beauty, justice?" Deep down, if you're honest, you can't help but submit a 'yes'. The rest is just going to be history.

We live in galaxy among galaxies on a little ball of dirt that rotates really fast and is suspended in space and revolves around a giant ball of fire. There's great beauty and great suffering. Despite the happy meal that comes with the neato toy, we all know deep down that being alive, existing, being --- is special -- despite the ugly stuff, despite the mundane - love is written all over the place. You can even close your eyes and you know it's there.

Read the bible that way and it will make a lot more sense. God is love. God loves humanity. There is peace, beauty, justice, Truth. Now if I know those things ARE True, then what do I make of this story about Moses? If X, Y, Z is true... what does that say about A, B, C....

Praying doesn't hurt either, if you've journeyed that close to God yet. If not, just keep seeking. He won't disappoint.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#27
ryan1976 your the only response ive seen that makes even a little bit of sense. but your main arguement is that something was lost in translation and i still say that if something is allowed to be lost in translation, then how can it be considered, the infallible, incorruptable, perfect word of god?
Oh, and it wasn't lost in translation but only lost in translation in regards to the King James Version. There are other translations that haven't given this impression. Plus, one that already is aware that God can't or won't "tempt" a man knows that, despite reading the King James Version, they have to reach a deeper understanding of what the verse is actually saying. If they are stuck on that version they can go to nearly any other version in other languages (especially Greek) and they won't even find the word "tempt" but "prove" etc.

Here's a thought too..

Ask yourself why God intervened in the making of the Tower of Babel by confusing our ability to understand/communicate easily with one another. And then juxtapose that with what happened at Pentecost.

Pentecost reverses the Tower of Babel like Christ's crucifixion reversed the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

If we don't have the ability to understand certain words or words have certain limitations then, like with Pentecost, we do have the Holy Spirit to lead His people into all understanding. However, what I just said is a very much abused phrase. You ask some guy why he thinks such and such a verse means what it means and his last or first line of defense is, "the Holy Spirit lead me to believe it".

That is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that there HAS and IS care by the Holy Spirit (God) to preserve what is lacking. But that's a whole other ball of wax....
 
S

suaso

Guest
#28
Ah, I remember the first time I had the Pentecost/Babel deal explained in class by the Abbot...I was like "Whoooooaaa."

Ain't theology fun?
 
Aug 30, 2009
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#29
I see one huge contradiction in the Bible but this will take some explanation.

ONE NUMBER ONE GOD IS INFINITELY OLD YES HE IS.

The universe was at one point in time a giant nearly Infinite Void with one tiny triangle in it counting every number in existence it took forever but you have to look at it as smaller smaller never smallest till it realized it had tallied everynumber and basically gained an intelligence. This small triangle represents the first trinetron (three electrons connected at magnetic poles) and was developing on a smaller smaller never smallest basis. Therefore the universe is infinitely old. Now when this near Infinite Vacuum and it's huge vacuum pressure superhypernovad... then the Words this original Trinity spoke became Commandments to the entire Universe. This Omnipotent (THOUGH HE DID GIVE UP HIS RIGHT TO TOTAL DOMINANCE OF THE UNIVERSE) Being commanded the Universe. However a problem is with a SuperHyperNova of this size. there is a chance ten broken pieces of light would split into ten pieces of what is called antimatter by splitting the magnetic poles of ten protons. In essence this area of the universe Rebelled and disobeyed the Light that was the Creator at the time.

Now the colossul combination of forces created an Infinite Creation Wave held up only by a power of c for each piece of antimatter in existence. Therefore this universe once we have rid it of five of these pieces of antimatter (The Devil, Famine, War, Death, Pestilence) is enough to contain the massive Creation Wave created by God the Father. Jesus remembers being a part of the Father that was a part of that original trine I mentioned. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE A TRINITY THAT IS WHY THE ONE ARE THREE YET THEY ARE ONE. Is it clearer now.

But the Devil developed in the antimatter part of the universe and WAS NEVER A FALLEN ANGEL.

Contradiction 1: The Devil is not from Heaven and was never an angel.

Contradition 2: Why do people's interpretation of the Garden of Eden put two hungry teens eating from an apple tree in sin that caused the human races problems. It was Saint Adam and Saint Eve and the Ten Commandments say HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER SO YOUR DAYS MAY BE LONG UPON THE EARTH. ALSO JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED. Maybe people in sin wanted to judge Adam and Eve in sin and then claim ADAM AND EVE DID IT. This is lunacy. Please show respect to the father and mother. Without them you would not be. This is why I also disagree with the story of Cain and Abel. Cain and Abel were best friends. Stop slandering your antecedant family because Cain's descendants the Canaanites are the Native American Indians. HAVEN'T THEY SUFFERED ENOUGH??

Contradiction 3: John in Revelations is the Three Fold Prophets. Secondly Revelations didn't just have bowls, trumpets and Tribulations.
IT CAME WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES IN HEAVEN AS WELL AS THE SHOFAR TRUMPETS.

So we have AntiKristoffer (against the Disciples of Christ) Antichristos (which in Greek literally means against crucification) , and Amore Christ (Lovers of Jesus and the Passion).

Then we have the Lying Statues, False Oracles, and the Living Statue. These obviously refer to robots. And I will tell you GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You spend your time and program a robot it will respond well. You make a machine to take the time to be a broken record and mislead people it will break down. Obviously there are good and evil robots. But to a primitive man in Jesus day looking to change the Word of God so he could blaspheme for whatever evil cult (MASONS KKK REPUBLICANS ALL THE SAME BLASPHEMOUS THING OF TRYING TO IDOLATER MOPNEY AND MONEY IS POWER AND OTHER WASTE) is trying to make all this look evil. Nuff said.

Then we have Mark of the Beast (Mark of the Blasphemous might have been more appropriate JOHN), Mark of the Martyrn (those killed by the AntiKristoffer not the Antichristos who represent pacificists that are against torture violence etc...), and Mark of the Lamb. Which represents the 144,000 and others in the MANY RAPTURES. I'm a PolyRapturists. There are raptures into heaven, out of the grave, and out of HELL ITSELF.

I could go on about three fold prophecy all day. Why not open up Revelations and notice for such a longseeing prophet John sure wasn't being threefold for one who studied under Jesus. This is why we know the Word needs to be gleaned from the FIELDS.

WE NEED TO BE LIKE NEW WINESKINS BECAUSE THERE ARE THREE TRIBULATIONS.

1: Wyrmwood
2: The unsealing of the Four Horsemen
3: Judgement Day

Now there are probably some minor details in the Bible. I think Solomon had three wives and seven concubines because in his father's day a lot of men died leaving children for David and Solomon to raise. Therefore they were the Fathers to these children of men fallen in war. His harem was rare and just to spread some of not as numerous Judah's seed. The Temple did verify with the (I forget the name the dice they use that are sacred) that God wanted this. OK more contradictions NO MAN COULD POSSIBLY ENTERTAIN 1,000 WOMEN Solomon the Wise would have just said. "Are you kidding you trying to kill me with sex." LOL

Now come on people let's get realistic. You know if you weren't such Catholic Dark Ages CHUMPS and believe people do not have the audactity to send themselves to hell by lying to an illiterate public in the past FOR THE MONEY.

Well I'm sure you can be a chump much longer... especially when you start reading "A teenager who is disobedient to a parent should be slain"

Whatever happened to spare the rod spoil the child. What spare him the rod and spoil him with death.

Contradiction 4

Have a nice day.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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#30
um, well Nails78, i thought my views were out there. nothing like a pseudoscientific misinformed disjointed rant to reveal the crazy. did the magic time traveling elves give you this information? if your trying to be on my side, thanks but no thanks.
and Ryan1976, what i can glean from your hipster ramblings is basically that we cant have a perfect understanding of the bible without being able to read some ancient language, and one cannot approach it with skepticism but needs to already be a believer in order to let the little things slide and chalk that up to letting the holy spirit be your guide. suddenly the magic time traveling elves dont sound so far out. i have found a website that says what i want to say much better than i would be able to so it would be easier to just check it out because im tired of typing.
http://www.borndigital.com/tcont.htm
thank you to everyone who actually takes the time to follow that link.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#31
... and Ryan1976, what i can glean from your hipster ramblings is basically that we cant have a perfect understanding of the bible without being able to read some ancient language
lol - sorry, was really late at night. :p

I don't think we can have perfect understanding of the bible and learning the ancient language won't hurt only because you'll be dealing with modern words that have different meanings. However, despite the limitations of our modern languages, we can still get along well. Enough that these "contradictions" are easily refuted.

... and one cannot approach it with skepticism but needs to already be a believer in order to let the little things slide
Nopes. There's plenty of secular bible scholars. The majority of bible scholars aren't even believers. That's not necessarily a good thing but if you want to see past all the little logic puzzles that people like to juxtapose onto the bible in order to look like incoherent babbling, just roll up yer sleeves and read.

Paul also said, test everything. I mean, if you really test everything you can't just come up with something sounds like you've proven it false. You have to be honest with yourself.

and chalk that up to letting the holy spirit be your guide.
Ah, I tried not to say what you interpreted me as saying... I said that people often use that phrase to validate their private interpretations. If you skim this board you'll see that there's a whole lot of conflicting statements that tout their position as having been "spirit-led". *shrug. definitely not saying that's a good thing and obviously the Holy Spirit hasn't led the masses into division and conflicting theologies (amongst "believers").

I was just saying that the Holy Spirit is at work and if we are humble enough, we might not remain totally blind for too long. Seek and you'll find.

suddenly the magic time traveling elves dont sound so far out. i have found a website that says what i want to say much better than i would be able to so it would be easier to just check it out because im tired of typing.
There are folks that aren't even believers that could refute the majority of stuffs on that website. Of course the website might say better what you would "like" to say but, for instance, let's talk about Original Sin.

Are you aware of all the different models of Original Sin and how they effect other doctrines? Can you even explain where the doctrines come from and how they're used and for what purpose?

You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't, you're basically putting all your faith in the folks that are feeding you that stuff on that website. Who with and how you wish to practice your religion or lack of is your business. But like I said before, there are answers to the accusations. And if you're sincere....

I hope you're not trying to understand Christianity based on the actions of the believers. If so, no wonder you reject the faith. However, despite the followers, take another look. Would stink if you just wound up some guy sitting on the sidelines looking all scowly faced at the people that represent a faith you don't understand.

thank you to everyone who actually takes the time to follow that link.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'll take some of the questions you've posed into consideration as I attempt to continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

If you have any other observations or questions, feel free to share. Someone might actually offer you a new perspective on the matter.

God bless and have a good day.



(insert hipster elevator music)*
 
Aug 25, 2009
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#32
concerning languages. my point is that it doesnt make much sense for an all knowing all seeing god with limitless power to send his word to the world in mostly dead languages and then allow it to be translated and mistranslated and altered and added to and taken away from. you may feel that the contradictions can be easily refuted but that doesnt mean they are not there, and again, if it is the perfect word of god, there shouldnt even appear to be contradictions or need refuting. im not sure where your getting your statistics but the majority of bible scholars are believers. thats why theyre bible scholars. why would i choose to study this piece of literature religiously, pardon the pun, if i dont believe it is the divinely inspired word of god. there are moral and ethical lessons that can be learned from studying it, but the same is true of all the other ancient religious writings. i believe paul was referring to testing everything, against the word of god, use the bible to prove the bible. it doesnt work that way. just because it says its true doesnt mean its true. concerning the holy spirit. obviously it has led the masses into division and conflicting theologies. it would seem that your saying that anyone who claims to have been lead by the holy spirit to a conclusion that differs from yours, has not been led by the holy spirit. concerning original sin. yes im aware of the fall of man and what paul says in Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22 and about Augustine of Hippo and concupiscence and traducianism and total depravity and blah blah blah. you seem to think that im some ignorant outsider looking in trying to see the light of your wonderful religion that i dont understand. not the case. i do not put my faith in anything on some website or in some book. nobody is feeding me anything on any website. unlike you, i do not consider consuming more propaganda as the solution to flawed dogma. yes there are answers to accusations and if you were sincere, you might consider the possibility that you have been mislead. but i would not expect you to step away from your comfort zone to do unbias research, since your not actually capable of that, and i respect that ppl like you want to be left to their precious little beliefs. have fun trembling in fear.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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#33
I see no reason to tremble in fear just because there are contradictions in the Bible. In fact, it might be a greater reason to tremble in fear if some of the deeds attributed to God in the Old Testament were actually his actions.

No, like MahagonySnail said, the contradictions in the Bible show that it was written by honest--and in some cases honestly mistaken--believers instead of cynical deceivers. Nobody truly knows the nature of God in full--the ancient Israelites, like all of humanity, must come to terms with God in their own way. And we should not allow others to make us tremble in fear because of their beliefs.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#34
concerning languages. my point is that it doesnt make much sense for an all knowing all seeing god with limitless power to send his word to the world in mostly dead languages and then allow it to be translated and mistranslated and altered and added to and taken away from.
Luke 10:21-22

and the Tower of Babel are two things to factor in --


you may feel that the contradictions can be easily refuted but that doesnt mean they are not there
You may feel that there are contradictions and any refutation of those contradictions can easily be refuted but it doesn't mean there are contradictions there. See how circular this is?

.. and again, if it is the perfect word of god, there shouldnt even appear to be contradictions or need refuting.
Perhaps you feel qualified as to how God should* work and believe that He should come down and personally shake each one of our hands and then demonstrate exactly who He is and what He's capable of, to erase all doubt, but for some reason God seems to require faith above our ability to have irrefutable evidence that satisfies our peanut noggins. He seems to be more pleased with his creatures seeking Him out and reaching higher than they believe possible.

Ask yourself why Jesus didn't just come out from the gate and say, "ok, I'm the Son of God and I'll explain everything to you so that you won't suffer any kind of confusion".

im not sure where your getting your statistics but the majority of bible scholars are believers.
I'm talking about the ones that the academic world seems to approve. The likes of Karen Armstrong etc. Sure, there are tons of "commentaries" but in regards to scholars that specialize in where such and such a verse came from - the historicity of it all - the majority of them are secular. Just check out yer local bookstore.

thats why theyre bible scholars. why would i choose to study this piece of literature religiously, pardon the pun, if i dont believe it is the divinely inspired word of god. there are moral and ethical lessons that can be learned from studying it, but the same is true of all the other ancient religious writings.
1. The bible isn't a morality tale or a book on ethics. God did not come to earth that we might simply live a "more" morally acceptable life.

2. Why a lot of people study the bible and write books about it has to do with money. Plus there aren't a few scholars that took their religion seriously until they became academics and then bought into all this "Horus" type of stuff. They wrote their books, their professor gave them gold stars and now they have two-car garages. Sadly, this is why a lot of these so-called Christians write these "novel" ideas. They realize they have to sell the book so they cater to folks looking how to manipulate God into "prospering" them etc. Insert Word of Faith folks. Catch a look at their homes. They live like Kings.

i believe paul was referring to testing everything, against the word of god, use the bible to prove the bible. it doesnt work that way. just because it says its true doesnt mean its true.
yeah, I agree. It doesn't work that way. No, Paul was saying to test everything. Like, everything. To see if it comes from God or the Adversary.

19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.

So, in regards to your concerns about the corruption of the texts, it's a valid question. However, in order to "test" these concerns you have look into it. That will require you to do more than just find a collection of statements ripped out of context and put side to side in order to make it appear contradictory.

concerning the holy spirit. obviously it has led the masses into division and conflicting theologies.
Well, there's obviously division and conflicting theologies. However, there's also evil. We can't say that God has done evil, especially if we know God is good. This is why it's vital to understand that first and foremost, God is good. God is love.

it would seem that your saying that anyone who claims to have been lead by the holy spirit to a conclusion that differs from yours, has not been led by the holy spirit.
That's exactly what I'm not saying. I was trying to explain to you that the Holy Spirit leads us into all Truth. However there are quite a few people that use this fact as an excuse to believe lies. There are those that say, the Holy Spirit has led me to believe X, Y, Z. And then another fellow comes along and he says the same thing about a conflicting belief. Both can't be right. One or both are lying. Both can't be telling the truth. Despite this common abuse, the Holy Spirit surely does lead His followers into all Truth but I'm dodging this topic because it's not a can of worms that I wish to open.

concerning original sin. yes im aware of the fall of man and what paul says in Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22 and about Augustine of Hippo and concupiscence and traducianism and total depravity and blah blah blah.
And so which model is more comprehensive and reflective of the texts?

you seem to think that im some ignorant outsider looking in trying to see the light of your wonderful religion that i dont understand. not the case.
1. You don't know my religion. 2. I only found your statements interesting and felt that if you were sincerely looking at this list of "contradictions" and wondered if they truly were contradictions, that we might have a cool conversation because I like this stuff*.

unlike you, i do not consider consuming more propaganda as the solution to flawed dogma.
Even if we have different perspectives we can still keep it civil. I can't tell if you honestly believe that I'm consuming propaganda as a solution (if you could show me how you are aware of this, that would be a great benefit to me) or if perhaps I was too casual with you and so you took offense.

In regards to dogmas, again, are you aware what I consider dogma and what I do not consider dogma? I don't know. There's this lady that digs in our trash and I've always suspected that she was selling private info but if you know all this stuff about me then please show me where I'm mistaken and I'll see if I can't correct the problem. Plus, I'll confront that lady and see if I can't work something out.

yes there are answers to accusations and if you were sincere, you might consider the possibility that you have been mislead.
I do and it occurs daily. It's called doubt. Most believers, if they're honest, will admit that they suffer from doubt. Of course I wonder if I've been misled. Are you kidding???? Have you read the bible? There's a lot of far-out stuff and if I saw half of what is mentioned in the bible I'd probably fold. But God hasn't given me more than I can handle and His grace is sufficient.

but i would not expect you to step away from your comfort zone to do unbias research, since your not actually capable of that, and i respect that ppl like you want to be left to their precious little beliefs. have fun trembling in fear.
I'm aware that there are many parts of the bible that most likely weren't in the original epistles/gospels. I've looked into all the different translations and even the difference between translation methods. Dynamic equivalence and source texts etc. Learning this stuff hardly makes one comfortable. Still, because I went on that journey and found that the reasons for a lot of these *dynamic equivalences have their roots in certain traditions and teachings and that a lot of the additions were probably things that were floating around as oral traditions that wound up addressing particular heresies, I don't see them being put into the bible as a corruption. I personally believe in Holy Tradition and so my definition of authoritative has a bit more room to breathe.

Plus, if you knew me you'd see that becoming Christian was anything but comfortable. The idea of living forever sounded (and still does at times but I'm getting better) horrible. I was pro-choice. I couldn't stand the majority of Christians I had run into. The contemporary Christian music scene is ghastly. And there's so much hypocritical uninformed hate filled slogan loving pluralistic relativistic culturally ingrained narrow minded money loving backwards inside out shallow nearsighted amnesiatic Christian flavors out there, that the LAST thing I wanted to do is associate myself with them. However, I did and I got over myself. Still can't stand the music though.

You'd be surprised how much you have in common with many people that call themselves Christian....

It's ok to doubt. It's ok to not trust every little thing that gets labeled Christian. In fact, if you ever became a Christian, I'd hope you would keep that same attention to integrity b/c there are a lot of Christian circles that could use a guy like that.

Ignorance truly is a certain kind of bliss and there isn't a day that I don't miss it or suffer from it.

God bless
 
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