Bible Question Someone asked me

[CIRBaptist]

Hey i'm Andrew


I did a study tonight on Philippians about a certain bible verse someone sent me.

We have been corresponding about Catholic Church, I had at first sent this person over 30 verses from Psalms that stated Salvation is "from the Heavens'" and from God.

Anyways,the verse this person used was from the letter to Philippians talking about "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

It's even listed in the Catholic Cathesism as proof of salvation by works (ugh).

I talked to my dad... he had his theories but they weren't intellectually convincing enough for me.

Holding to the King James Bible, I believe it was translated properly) (* did a bible search keyword: salvation and found nearly every one involved God or belonged to God, salavation always belonged to God ..something to be given to men.

Why DOES this verse say that?

So, I sat down and read the book. (Rather lay on my bed but you get the idea)

So as I was lying there i started with the first verse to see who Philippians Paul could be talking to, were these newborn Christians need to work their salvation, what type of salvation???????

Salvation can mean deliverance as well.


The first verse of the Letter reads:

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Okay written to Saints....saint meaning sanctioned" or washed in the Son's blood. This was a holy group of people.

5For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

They are in the Gospel, that is the death burial and resurrection of Christ

Here is the PROBLEM:
For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

So they aren't seeking the will of God that was my problem.

Paul's soulful solution:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



So they have God .....
he is working in them


and Jesus promised I will never leave you nor forsake you...

He wants God to will and do his good pleasure. Is he talking salvation from Hell...nope.


He is talking about salvation from the willful heart, the mighty flesh.



How do you do the will and good pleasurel of God? I found it recently just like they did I approached God with fear and trembling...praying and finding an answer in Scriptures.



I am SOOO happy I found the answer to this salvation question.


This is the clear understanding of what God was saying through his Apostle.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Php 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and TREMBLING.

I think this can also imply that as Jesus said unto His Mother Mary, when they had to go back and get Him after traveling a days journey without Him,

Lu 2:49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
He was the Son Of God (my Father), He didn't have to work in order to obtain that position, but rather labored about the Father's Business, because He was a Child of God, so as with Him when we take on the Name of God, if my people who are called by my name, then we need to work out the time God has given us, as children of God, not to make us children of God but that we are children of God we must be busy about his Business. the harvest is ready but the Labors are few.

 

[MaggieMye]

Salvation is an ongoing process. "Being saved" is a phrase used at least 5 different times in the NT. "Working out with fear and treambling" is to say that the process of salvation is not a 'work', but that it has to be 'worked at'...it is a series of choices throughout life to remain righteous and pure. The work 'fear' can be replaced with 'reverence'. The trembling is the 'trials' of life that Could lead us away, but challenge us to stay under His wing.

Does that help?
Maggie

 

[loveschild]

When we said yes that we belive in Jesus and truley take him in we are saved by his grace, his free gift to us right? But everyday we go on with our lives we sin and we repent so Gods blood is still aways saving us, washing us clean again. Hid blood he gave for us is still alive, still cleansing us over and over. As we go on learning more and more about God we learn this thing we are doing isn't right by Gods sight and we change and don't keep doing what we now know is wrong( working). Fear is the respecting what does God think. Trembling you could say, I don't want to be displeasing to God so much so that I care very much am I right with God.

 

[Buddee]

Work out...


Live out...


Live out each day as though you have been granted God's most precious gift of salvation...your "works" can't obtain it, your "works" cannot maintain it, for it is received through His immeasureable Grace.

Do it out of reverence for a mighty God.

 

[MahogonySnail]

"Working out with fear and treambling" is to say that the process of salvation is not a 'work', but that it has to be 'worked at'...

It says work out, not work at.

The MKJV says:
c"ultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling"

Paul is basically saying "guys, now that I've told you all this stuff, you have to go and apply it to your own lives and obey God's will for you personally, just go and do it".

The next verse gives a clue about what he is meaning:

Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

It's not about working at your salvation, you're already saved by Christ's merits alone.

it is a series of choices throughout life to remain righteous and pure

Christ is our only righteousness and by which we are purified.

 

[Maddog]

Well I'm off the hook answering this one because I believe works are important in salvation. Note: faith and works salvation does not deny that it's all by God's grace.

 

[suaso]

Do Catholics think they can buy their way into Heaven?

I received an email from a well meaning Evangelical who asked:

"Can a person get into heaven by giving to charities?"

He felt that Catholics believe that we can buy our way into Heaven.

A couple of years ago the Pope and Lutheran World Federation cosigned a document entitled "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" (JDDJ) agreeing on the role of faith in salvation. St. Cyprian said "No one is safe by his own strength, but he is safe by the Grace and mercy of God."

I could never in my lifetime, do enough good works to get into heaven on my own strength. There are not enough little old ladies in the world that I could help walk across the street, to pay the price that Jesus paid for my salvation. We Catholics don't think we can work our way into heaven, honest! On the other hand we don't think we can sit on our butts and expect Jesus to be pleased.

Section 1996 of the Catechism says:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. (Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.)

Sections 161-162 the Catechism says:

(161) "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation ...therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification...(162) Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man...

The Catechism also talks about our response to faith, (sections 161-162 and 1997-2000) which is to go out into the world and do as Jesus would have us do. Which is what we call Charity.

A couple of years ago almost every teenage Evangelical was wearing a bracelet that said WWJD, which was an acronym for "What Would Jesus Do?" This is basically what Catholics call Charity. When Catholics say the we must practice Charity, we are not saying you must give money to some benevolent organization (although that is a charitable action). We are basically saying "Ok, now that you have given your life to Jesus, do what Jesus would have you do and do this for the rest of your life, one day at a time." (Mk 13:13, Jam 1:2, Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13). Catholics believe we must "endure until the end" with our faith. (Heb 11:6)

- Taken from this website.

 

[Jordan9]

Hi Andrew!

Well I'm off the hook answering this one because I believe works are important in salvation. Note: faith and works salvation does not deny that it's all by God's grace.

Indeed, I agree.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21

Just as an example.

 

[CIRBaptist]

My friends I have to disagree with you all.

You should of read the answer I had, it was in the next verse, to be saved from the snares of the flesh and to do the Will of God!


"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21

I agree with this ....
How do you know if someoene's saved? Answer; if they do the will of God!


"Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"


Secondly: It is even greatest sadness I openeded this thread I dont' know if the lack of spiritual discernment in your posts, and I am grieved at the false Gospel of that Roman Catholic Church

I thought this web board was for Evangelical Christians.

 

[CIRBaptist]

I did report Suaso because Catholic doctrine was not allowed to be promoted according to RoboOp.
"Fight the Good fight, finish the faith"

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Maddog]

I did report Suaso because Catholic doctrine was not allowed to be promoted according to RoboOp.

What the...? Where does it say that? It was nowhere in the terms and conditions when I signed up.

Poor Suaso.

 

[CIRBaptist]

Salvation is an ongoing process. "Being saved" is a phrase used at least 5 different times in the NT. "Working out with fear and treambling" is to say that the process of salvation is not a 'work', but that it has to be 'worked at'...it is a series of choices throughout life to remain righteous and pure. The work 'fear' can be replaced with 'reverence'. The trembling is the 'trials' of life that Could lead us away, but challenge us to stay under His wing.

Does that help?
Maggie

Hey Maggie!

Thank you for responding to my thread.....

This is the Reformed doctirne of Perseverance of the Saints. I have thought about this before but I still have to reject that based on Christ's finished work on the Cross. No human merit is involved.

 

[CIRBaptist]

What the...? Where does it say that? It was nowhere in the terms and conditions when I signed up.

Poor Suaso.

RoboOp has stated that Catholic doctrine was not allowed to be taught. He also said he closed or kicked one person for starting a thread promoting Catholicism. This is an Evangelical Christian forum, I believe he said, I don't' have the exact quote though. From his talks (Bible Study room, a few months ag) he spends time witnessing to Teens about the Catholic Church as a missionary in Philippines...


Check out Number 3 in the essentials in this FORUM

Suaso will be okay

 

[Maddog]

RoboOp has stated that Catholic doctrine was not allowed to be taught. He also said he closed or kicked one person for starting a thread promoting Catholicism. This is an Evangelical Christian forum, I believe he said, I don't' have the exact quote though. From his talks (Bible Study room, a few months ag) he spends time witnessing to Teens about the Catholic Church as a missionary in Philippines...

Well I sussed that a place such as this would be full of Evangs, but nowhere in the conditions for membership was it stated that it was specifically an Evangelical forum.

Check out Number 3 in the essentials in this FORUM

You mean this?

'3. Faith in the crucixition, death and resurrection of Jesus is the only way to reconcile you to relationship with God.'

Catholic doctrine does not contradict this or any other of the 'essentials'. There is no reason why Catholic doctrine should not be expressed here.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I don't think it was being taught she was just trying to explain how the Catholics view that verse, which I think is fair considering you claim you have been discussing about Catholics and may yourself have interpreted it and their views incorrectly.

Perhaps you could explain how incorrect this statement by the Catholic is:

"I could never in my lifetime, do enough good works to get into heaven on my own strength."

Ok maybe I will. Well it appears correct and almost protestant on its own, but in the catholic understanding I believe it means "I can't get into heaven by my own good works but I can get into heaven by good works that Jesus does through me". It is still a works-based doctrine that they believe and teach.

Although the Catholic claims not to be able to buy themself into heaven, they most certainly believe they can buy themself out of hell, or rather, avoid long times in purgatorial suffering. Of course it was this idea of indulgences and paying popes or priests for certain favors to escape supposed purgatorial punishment that led to the reformation. That works are necessary for salvation is a common traditional protestant belief, in the sense that works must show the faith or demonstrate that you actually have faith (protestant doctrine cannot disagree with the book of James re: faith and works). This is more or less the belief of the Church of England and similar protestant churches. The difference is, that the Catholic places importance on works which are not that important, man-made traditions and man-made ideas of how to please God, such as going to Catholic run events and things like this. The protestant however, understands that their whole salvation depends upon their faith, even their works, depends upon their faith, and like Abraham who was declared righteous by God simply by believing God's promise, are saved by faith not "faith and works if you make it through purgatory".

As the articles of religion (Anglican) explain:

X. Of Free-Will.
The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith; and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.
XI. Of the Justification of Man.
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

XII. Of Good Works.
Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.

XIII. Of Works before Justification.
Works done before the grace of Christ, and the Inspiration of his Spirit, are not pleasant to God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ; neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School-authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea rather, for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they have the nature of sin.

 

[Maddog]

There are of course very serious differences between Protestants and Catholics (but then there are between some Protestants and other Protestants). However, this is ChristianChat, not EvangChat, and nowhere in the sign-up terms did it say that we had to tow the Evang line.

 

[MahogonySnail]

That works are necessary for salvation is a common traditional protestant belief, in the sense that works must show the faith or demonstrate that you actually have faith (protestant doctrine cannot disagree with the book of James re: faith and works).

This is I believe, the proper sense of what Paul meant by "working out" (not working at) your salvation.

 

[suaso]

Well, I really want to extend my appreciation to CIRBaptist for reporting me. Thank you for the ecumenism.

Scenario

Jiff Jack: You know, there is only one correct way to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and we believe this is with jelly and peanut butter...you certainly cannot make it with jelly and just peanuts. The Planters think you can use just peanuts, which clearly goes against what we Jiffs believe.

Planter Paul Actually, we Planters agree that you have to use peanut butter and jelly, and that peanuts alone are no substitution for peanut butter, but for us, peanut butter can be crunchy style, which does include some pieces of peanuts, but they are in the peanut butter. We also believe in using peanut butter, we just think it has to have some peanut pieces in it.

Ok, enough with my bad analogy. Paul is trying to help Jack understand what the Planters believe, and is not explicitly tying to spread Planter concepts, just educate. See, because Jack is wrong in saying that the Planters use only peanuts instead of peanut butter, but actually, Planters do use peanut butter, albeit crunchy style. Jack doesn't have to agree to liking crunchy peanut butter, and can still say that crunchy peanut butter is wrong if he wants, but it is unfair to accuse the Planters of something they don't do (using only whole peanuts). Paul just wants the Jiffs to have a truer, more accurate of what the Planters actually do.

Too bad that no one in the world of PB&J has defined precisely what a true PB&J sandwich is, though...

 

[imoss]

and suddenly I need a snack :0). I prefer smooth peanut butter but do partake in that lone peanut they stick on top although I dont make it a part of my sandwich. I wonder if this is ok.