Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,802
2,179
113
Not sure?

Let's see what Jesus said.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes they have eternal life.

In John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Are you sure now?
please. don't even. please don't make me quantify that either.
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,802
2,179
113
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
well I don't mean to sink your boat (well actually I do but it's sinking anyway)

1. salvation is NOT election. Whosoever does not mean God picks like you are going to play on team salvation against the fire fodder team

2. salvation is God's grace given through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. most people try to avoid the refining fire and go to service with all the dross bubbling up on top. God refines us for service and anoints a person for service. most of us are not called in the sense so many believe as service. be a Christian where you are.

I agree with those who state the op is not defining Calvinism very well. I have actually studied it and the op misses the explanation
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,382
17,666
113
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.

Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
wrong, its about all
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,874
1,168
113
EPH 2:8,9 clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone. v.9 is clear enough.


Of course there is Scripture.

In John 5:24, Jesus taught that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes.
In John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life, and shall never perish.

One either believes what Jesus taught or they do not believe what He taught.
Ephesians 2:8,9 do not say salvation is by faith alone: they say that by grace are you saved through faith, not of works.

John 5:24 says the one who is believing is having eternal life. It does not say the "moment one believes." Of course you are allowed to interpret it that way if you want, but the text does not say that.

John 10:27,28 - say that "my (Jesus') sheep are hearing my voice and I am knowing them, and they are following me. And to these sheep he is giving eternal life, and they will never perish" Exactly! Praise the Lord! A beautiful promise to all those who are sheep! Nothing is said at all about those who are not believing, and I see nothing mentioned at all about the "nanosecond one believes"

Those are valuable beautiful verses ! They give deep lasting assurance to all who have their faith and hope in Jesus Christ! PTL!

(But I do think you need to realize your doctrine is not stated in these verses. But if you want to believe your doctrine and then find it in Scripture, that is your prerogative!)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,874
1,168
113
Part II: God’s OPERATION On ALL of HIS Chosen!

The Wonderful Eternal Merits Of The Saviour's Precious BLOOD, continued:

(12) Purchased:
God Purchased HIS Church With HIS OWN BLOOD!
(Acts 20 : 28 KJB!)​
...Redemption Of The Purchased Possession, Unto
The Praise Of HIS Glory!” (Ephesians 1 : 14 KJB!)​

(13) Raised:
Buried With HIM In Baptism, Wherein Also ye Are RISEN With HIM
Through The Faith Of The OPERATION Of God, Who Hath RAISED
HIM From the dead.” (Colossians 2 : 12 KJB!)​
Up Together With CHRIST! (Ephesians 2 : 6 KJB!)​

(14) Redeemed:
...The Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST; Who Gave
HIMSELF For us, That HE might Redeem us From ALL iniquity…”
(Titus 2 : 14 KJB!)
From the curse of the law! (Galatians 3 : 13 KJB!)​
Redemption IN CHRIST JESUS! (Romans 3 : 24 KJB!)​
Redemption Through HIS BLOOD!
God Made CHRIST Redemption Unto us who are IN HIM!
...Redemption Of The Purchased Possession, Unto
The Praise Of HIS Glory!” (Ephesians 1 : 14 KJB!)​
Sealed By The Holy Spirit Unto The Day Of Redemption!
The {Day Of} Redemption of our body! (Romans 8 : 23 KJB!)​

(15) Saved:
“For The GRACE Of God That Bringeth Salvation
Hath Appeared To all men” (Titus 2 : 11 KJB!)​
But, FOR Only those, who are humble:
The Gospel Of CHRIST Is The Power Of God Unto Salvation
to Every one that believeth! (Romans 1 : 16 KJB!)​
“For The preaching Of The CROSS is to them that perish foolishness;​
but unto us which Are SAVED It Is The Power Of God!”​
By GRACE are ye Saved Through faith”​
(Ephesians 2 : 5, 8-9 KJB!)​
...According To HIS Own Purpose And GRACE, Which
Was Given us In CHRIST JESUS Before the world began...”​
(2 Timothy 1 : 9 KJB!)​
...According To HIS MERCY HE SAVED us...” (Titus 3 : 5 KJB!)​

(16) Sealed:
By The Holy Spirit Unto The Day Of Redemption!
God’s Sure Foundation Has This SEAL:
The LORD Knoweth them That Are HIS!”

(17) Translated:
[SPIRITUALLY Transferred] Into The Kingdom Of HIS Dear SON!”

(18) Washed:
“And such [UNrighteous v. 9] were some of you: but ye are​
WASHED, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified In The
Name Of The LORD JESUS, And By The Spirit Of our God.”
...CHRIST also Loved the church, and Gave HIMSELF For it;
That HE might sanctify and Cleanse it with The WASHING Of
Water By The WORD…” (Ephesians 5 : 25-26 KJB!)​

Precious friend(s), In Conclusion:

“For we preach not ourselves, but CHRIST JESUS The LORD; and ourselves
your servants for JESUS’ Sake. For God, Who Commanded the light to shine
out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of
The Glory Of God In The Face Of JESUS CHRIST. But we have This Treasure in
earthen vessels, that The Excellency Of The Power may be Of God, and not of us.”
(2 Corinthians 4 : 5-7 KJB!)

ALL Because of CHRIST's FULL Sacrifice! Amen?
-----------------------------------

In addition to These {6 Dozen +} Passages, God Also Has
More Scriptural Evidence Of HIS Glorious
Eternal Salvation:
58 Solid Biblical Facts!


Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's SimpleWill!
Ah, those are a lot of beautiful verses about the glorious gift of God's salvation! PTL!

Ah, but ah . . . I am quite familiar with those verses and I did not find a single one among them that stated that we are saved by faith alone? Which one is it? . . . Did I miss it?
 
Feb 22, 2021
518
135
43
Midwest
To put it simply: Calvin taught that ALL that come to a saving faith ARE the elect, and ALL the elect ARE those predestinated by God to come to a saving faith. Seems circular, but, in a way, all so sensible, too.
Even Simpler: Calvin was UNbiblical!:

Calvinism = God “predestinated” some to hell? UNbiblical!
What Saith The Scripture?:

2Pe_3:9 The LORD Is not slack concerning His Promise, as
some men count slackness; but Is Longsuffering to us-ward,
Not Willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of The Truth.

Rom_8:29-30
For whom He Did Foreknow, He Also Did Predestinate To Be
Conformed To The Image Of His SON
, that He might be The Firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom He Did Predestinate, them He also
called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.

God's Sound {sensible?} Doctrine!

Thus, God DID NOT “predestinate some to be saved, and others to hell!”
HE Did Foreknow "what we would choose!"

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
 
Apr 12, 2021
905
210
43
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.

Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
I don't have a boat. I am not currently in a boat. I had a car people euphemistically referred to as a boat, because it was good for only 8 mpg on a good day rolling down hill with the wind at my back. 😉

The election I'm referring to is indeed the election Calvin and others referred to, i.e., as it pertains to saints predestinated unto salvation. Jesus told His disciples, “You did not choose Me but I chose you” John 15:16.

I do agree God chooses whomever HE so desires (believers and unbelievers) according to HIS sovereign authority to accomplish whatever sovereign purpose HE has, e.g., Judas. Whomever God elects unto salvation, those elect are called to service to the glory of God to do, among other things, proclaim the gospel message to the lost.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
FreeGrace2 said:
Not sure?

Let's see what Jesus said.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes they have eternal life.

In John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Are you sure now?
please. don't even. please don't make me quantify that either.
Huh? I was trying to help you become sure.

Didn't Jesus quantify the issue?
 
Apr 12, 2021
905
210
43
Even Simpler: Calvin was UNbiblical!:

Calvinism = God “predestinated” some to hell? UNbiblical!
What Saith The Scripture?:

2Pe_3:9 The LORD Is not slack concerning His Promise, as
some men count slackness; but Is Longsuffering to us-ward,
Not Willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of The Truth.

Rom_8:29-30
For whom He Did Foreknow, He Also Did Predestinate To Be
Conformed To The Image Of His SON
, that He might be The Firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom He Did Predestinate, them He also
called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.

God's Sound {sensible?} Doctrine!

Thus, God DID NOT “predestinate some to be saved, and others to hell!”
HE Did Foreknow "what we would choose!"

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
God does want none to perish, but HE knows most choose to reject HIM and will therefore end up in hell. And God acknowledged that many are on the broad way to eternal destruction, while few are on the narrow way to eternal life. It's our faithful service as believers to share the good news with the lost in hopes they might come to repentance and saving faith.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
well I don't mean to sink your boat (well actually I do but it's sinking anyway)
That's funny! But my claim is true, which I've already shown evidence. And there's tons more.

1. salvation is NOT election. Whosoever does not mean God picks like you are going to play on team salvation against the fire fodder team
I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.

2. salvation is God's grace given through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. most people try to avoid the refining fire and go to service with all the dross bubbling up on top. God refines us for service and anoints a person for service. most of us are not called in the sense so many believe as service. be a Christian where you are.
See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.

I agree with those who state the op is not defining Calvinism very well. I have actually studied it and the op misses the explanation
It seems anyone who explains what Calvinism never satisfies the Calvinists. But what's new.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.

Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
It seems you didn't look up any of the verses I cited. Which prove what I have said.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
Ephesians 2:8,9 do not say salvation is by faith alone: they say that by grace are you saved through faith, not of works.
Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

John 5:24 says the one who is believing is having eternal life.
No, it doesn't say that. You show an adverb, but the verse has the verb "believes" and it's present tense. Just like "have" is present tense. So you have been reading it incorrected. Eternal life isn't something that keeps on giving. It's given and POSSESSED when one believes. That is what John 5:24 actually says.

It does not say the "moment one believes." Of course you are allowed to interpret it that way if you want, but the text does not say that.
That is the obvious meaning. And leave your adverbs out please. Since Jesus said those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, how could anyone claim that eternal life isn't given the MOMENT one believes, since AT the moment, the person IS a believer and therefore HAS eternal life.

John 10:27,28 - say that "my (Jesus') sheep are hearing my voice and I am knowing them, and they are following me. And to these sheep he is giving eternal life, and they will never perish" Exactly! Praise the Lord! A beautiful promise to all those who are sheep! Nothing is said at all about those who are not believing, and I see nothing mentioned at all about the "nanosecond one believes"
I never said anything about nanoseconds in John 10:28. The point of the verse is that ALL recipients of eternal life, which from 5:24 includes everyone who has believed, shall never perish.

Those are valuable beautiful verses ! They give deep lasting assurance to all who have their faith and hope in Jesus Christ! PTL!

(But I do think you need to realize your doctrine is not stated in these verses.
Well, I am just amazed at your naivety. Of course they do.

Those who believe have eternal life. John 5:24

Those who have eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

If you don't see eternal life clearly in these 2 verses, I don't think there's any help for you.

But if you want to believe your doctrine and then find it in Scripture, that is your prerogative!)
So you believe eternal security but don't see it in those 2 verses.

So where in the Bible do you find the teaching of eternal security?
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
Ah, those are a lot of beautiful verses about the glorious gift of God's salvation! PTL!

Ah, but ah . . . I am quite familiar with those verses and I did not find a single one among them that stated that we are saved by faith alone? Which one is it? . . . Did I miss it?
Are you trying to show that there is more to salvation than faith? Or what is your point here?
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.

Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
I don't have a boat. I am not currently in a boat. I had a car people euphemistically referred to as a boat, because it was good for only 8 mpg on a good day rolling down hill with the wind at my back. 😉
I know those "boats" well.

The election I'm referring to is indeed the election Calvin and others referred to, i.e., as it pertains to saints predestinated unto salvation.
The problem is that the "election" that Calvin refers to isn't found in the Bible. So I ask if you could quote any verses that clearly indicate that God elects people to savlation.

Jesus told His disciples, “You did not choose Me but I chose you” John 15:16.
This was said after Judas, who was elected back in John 6;70,71. And what did Jesus choose the 11 for? Bearing fruit. Not salvation.

In fact, in v.3 Jesus makes clear all 11 are already saved ("clean").

I do agree God chooses whomever HE so desires (believers and unbelievers) according to HIS sovereign authority to accomplish whatever sovereign purpose HE has, e.g., Judas. Whomever God elects unto salvation, those elect are called to service to the glory of God to do, among other things, proclaim the gospel message to the lost.
I am eagerly waiting for any verse that shows clearly that God chooses unconditionally to salvation. (Which is Calvin's definition).
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,802
2,179
113
That's funny! But my claim is true, which I've already shown evidence. And there's tons more.
that's heavy man. real heavy. said in my best hippie voice even though I was never one. a little too young

I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.
anyone ever tell you that you are more than a little confusing? He saves those who believe...leaves me like...:cautious:

See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.
no. not at all what I am saying. :cautious: and nuh uh on all those verse that do not exist

It seems anyone who explains what Calvinism never satisfies the Calvinists. But what's new.
well actually the Calvinists do a pretty good job. but I am not a Calvinist :giggle:
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,802
2,179
113
FreeGrace2 said:
Not sure?

Let's see what Jesus said.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes they have eternal life.

In John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Are you sure now?

Huh? I was trying to help you become sure.

Didn't Jesus quantify the issue?
what have I done to deserve not one but two responses?

I'm complicated. (shrugs)
 
Apr 12, 2021
905
210
43
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.

Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71

I know those "boats" well.


The problem is that the "election" that Calvin refers to isn't found in the Bible. So I ask if you could quote any verses that clearly indicate that God elects people to savlation.


This was said after Judas, who was elected back in John 6;70,71. And what did Jesus choose the 11 for? Bearing fruit. Not salvation.

In fact, in v.3 Jesus makes clear all 11 are already saved ("clean").


I am eagerly waiting for any verse that shows clearly that God chooses unconditionally to salvation. (Which is Calvin's definition).
When you don't believe God is able to choose whom HE wills, you have put God in a poorly constructed box.

Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

1 Thessalonians 1:4: "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you"

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth"

Romans 8:28: "And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are the called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect?"

Ephesians 1:1-11: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ. In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything"
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
FreeGrace2 said:
I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.
anyone ever tell you that you are more than a little confusing?
Said the one who brings "team" to the discussion. :)

He saves those who believe...leaves me like...:cautious:
This is confusing?? 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

See? The Bible says what I believe and I quote the Bible. God DOES save those who believe.

FreeGrace2 said:
See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.
no. not at all what I am saying.
You used the word "annointed". Paul was chosen per Acts 9:15 and annointed per 1 Tim 2:7.

And, my bad. You wrote "annointed" and I read "appointed". Oops.

:cautious: and nuh uh on all those verse that do not exist
Oh, don't do that. I love a challenge, and I actually have verses that say what I believe and post.

well actually the Calvinists do a pretty good job. but I am not a Calvinist :giggle:
What do they do a good job of? I don't believe their theology.

So, you admire those with whom you do not associate with?