Birth of the New Testament Church

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Nov 27, 2018
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#1
Let me first say that I am sincere in saying that it is a mystery to me why so many think they do not have to be obedient to the words spoken by Apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost in the Book of Acts. Jesus, Himself, said "...I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven:" (Matthew 16:19) Jesus said Peter was given the keys not a single key.

We know that Peter believed Jesus was the messiah from reading Matthew 16:16: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Therefore many would say he was saved at that time. However, some time after making this statement Jesus told Peter to strengthen others when thou art converted. Luke 22:31-32

Peter told the gathered crowd what they must do after he and the disciples, along with others who were present in the upper room, received the Holy Ghost:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off (in the future), even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Acts 2:38-42

This set of instructions did not stop there:

We see the same message was relayed to the Samaritans in Acts Chapter 8 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:12, 14-17

Again, the message did not stop here either. We see the Gentiles receiving the same instructions:

Cornelius a Gentile received a message from an angel of God telling him to send for the Apostle Peter:
"...now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do." Acts 10:5-6

The following is what happened when Peter arrived:
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:43-48

When the Jewish counsel found out that Peter had gone to a Gentile they demanded an account of why he went to Cornelius:
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words
, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Acts 11:13-14

The message continued with Paul expanding the knowledge of disciples in Ephesus who only knew of John the Baptist's form of water baptism:
"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:1-6

Lastly, Jesus said that all will be judged by His Word:
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48

So I for one want to make every effort to pursue, and share in love, what is recorded there.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
485
133
43
#2
Actually the apostles received the Holy Spirit prior to the upper room meeting ( JOHN 20: 22) The upper room was where the Holy Spirit gave them courage to preach the gospel and the ability to "speak" in the languages of those people gathered from other places at Pentecost for the feast. We see in Acts 2: 5-11

There is some doubt they SPOKE the languages or the hearers HEARD in their language though the apostles spokie in their own language....I'd like to know what others think about that specifically.
 
Nov 27, 2018
99
26
18
#3
Actually the apostles received the Holy Spirit prior to the upper room meeting ( JOHN 20: 22) The upper room was where the Holy Spirit gave them courage to preach the gospel and the ability to "speak" in the languages of those people gathered from other places at Pentecost for the feast. We see in Acts 2: 5-11

There is some doubt they SPOKE the languages or the hearers HEARD in their language though the apostles spokie in their own language....I'd like to know what others think about that specifically.
Yes, Jesus did breathe the Holy Spirit on disciples prior to the Day of Pentecost. He also told them to remain in Jerusalem until they were endued with power from on high. (Luke 24:49) Peter mentions that others received the Holy Ghost in the same way as the disciples did during Pentecost. (Acts 10:44-47)
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
485
133
43
#4
Yes, Jesus did breathe the Holy Spirit on disciples prior to the Day of Pentecost. He also told them to remain in Jerusalem until they were endued with power from on high. (Luke 24:49) Peter mentions that others received the Holy Ghost in the same way as the disciples did during Pentecost. (Acts 10:44-47)
Power to preach .....what a gift ....in the days when a person could be crucified or sent to Nero's lions
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,190
329
83
#5
Let me first say that I am sincere in saying that it is a mystery to me why so many think they do not have to be obedient to the words spoken by Apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost in the Book of Acts. Jesus, Himself, said "...I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven:" (Matthew 16:19) Jesus said Peter was given the keys not a single key.

We know that Peter believed Jesus was the messiah from reading Matthew 16:16: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Therefore many would say he was saved at that time. However, some time after making this statement Jesus told Peter to strengthen others when thou art converted. Luke 22:31-32

Peter told the gathered crowd what they must do after he and the disciples, along with others who were present in the upper room, received the Holy Ghost:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off (in the future), even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Acts 2:38-42

This set of instructions did not stop there:

We see the same message was relayed to the Samaritans in Acts Chapter 8 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:12, 14-17

Again, the message did not stop here either. We see the Gentiles receiving the same instructions:

Cornelius a Gentile received a message from an angel of God telling him to send for the Apostle Peter:
"...now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do." Acts 10:5-6

The following is what happened when Peter arrived:
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:43-48

When the Jewish counsel found out that Peter had gone to a Gentile they demanded an account of why he went to Cornelius:
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words
, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Acts 11:13-14

The message continued with Paul expanding the knowledge of disciples in Ephesus who only knew of John the Baptist's form of water baptism:
"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:1-6

Lastly, Jesus said that all will be judged by His Word:
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48

So I for one want to make every effort to pursue, and share in love, what is recorded there.
I've been on here for years saying the same thing. It doesnt matter how many scriptures you show them, he who haveth not ears to hear refuses the truth. But I am glad to see that you see it.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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26
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#6
I've been on here for years saying the same thing. It doesnt matter how many scriptures you show them, he who haveth not ears to hear refuses the truth. But I am glad to see that you see it.
Ditto. There is nothing better than open eyes. Thank you so much for your comment. Great to see others planting and watering! :giggle: If just one person receives the increase from God it will all be worth it. Continue to be blessed!
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
485
133
43
#7
It seems our resident "lawkeepers" continually use the old covenant of Law to win their arguments. Thinking erroneously that the ministry of Jesus was the beginning of the new covenant, they misuse His teachings to foist their poor view of grace on others.

Christians desire obedience to God, want so much to please our gracious Lord, but knowing that we cannot will always be the internal struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Paul's wretched man is my wretched man.

So, you Pharisees, who desire to control and to play holy spirit to God's people, what if we fail? Do we lose our salvation? Just what is your message?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
1,138
414
83
#8
Wansvic sir could you tell me what you are preaching.

Are you one of the guys who say that baptism has to be in the name of Jesus Christ and NOT Father Son and Holy Spirit?

I believe the first is just a short way to express the latter. Why would the apostles do differently than Jesus said in the great commission?

Also, are you a ONENESS pentecostal? Straight up asking you. Do you believe people are saved if they are baptized in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit ?
Or does it HAVE to be name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
14,048
1,465
113
#9
Paul teaches you "shall we sin more so that we may have more grace, God forbid!"

Sin is disobeying the law. If you grace only folks wish to teach it is ok to go out and live in sin, this is your eternity, mine is to obey god in all He says and this means hearing and doing what Jesus Christ teaches.

I am very sorry, you think that is being "under the law." That is a cagtch phrase for all who teach dsobedience, be it directly or obliquely.
 
Nov 27, 2018
99
26
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#10
It seems our resident "lawkeepers" continually use the old covenant of Law to win their arguments. Thinking erroneously that the ministry of Jesus was the beginning of the new covenant, they misuse His teachings to foist their poor view of grace on others.

Christians desire obedience to God, want so much to please our gracious Lord, but knowing that we cannot will always be the internal struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Paul's wretched man is my wretched man.

So, you Pharisees, who desire to control and to play holy spirit to God's people, what if we fail? Do we lose our salvation? Just what is your message?
Did you read the first post? Each scripture referenced is directly from the New Testament. Please provide scriptures that state that obedience to the Word is not necessary.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
14,048
1,465
113
#11
As long as people who say they believe do not hear and pass on the teaching of the One Who died for all sinners, they cannot be trusted.

Blessed be the Only Source of our Learning, Jesus Christ, amen
 
Nov 27, 2018
99
26
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#12
Wansvic sir could you tell me what you are preaching.

Are you one of the guys who say that baptism has to be in the name of Jesus Christ and NOT Father Son and Holy Spirit?

I believe the first is just a short way to express the latter. Why would the apostles do differently than Jesus said in the great commission?

Also, are you a ONENESS pentecostal? Straight up asking you. Do you believe people are saved if they are baptized in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit ?
Or does it HAVE to be name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation?
I shared scripture. What you or I believe is useless if it doesn't line up with the truth as outlined in God's Word. Each of the scriptures posted align with one another to form a concept. One either sees it, or they don't. One plants, one waters, but God gives the increase (understanding).
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
14,048
1,465
113
#13
What a brilliant them to argue about...….whether a person is baptized in the name of Jesus or strictly in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Pleas read Isaiah 9:6 and believe it, and you will truly understand either is teh same.
 
Nov 26, 2018
87
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#14
What a brilliant them to argue about...….whether a person is baptized in the name of Jesus or strictly in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Pleas read Isaiah 9:6 and believe it, and you will truly understand either is teh same.
Hi JaumeJ:

I am not an expert, but studying a bit there is a problem in the issue:

The field of textual criticism uses in general two methodologies to try to get to the truth of the matter.

Internal evidence and external evidence. When you use both, you gain a better idea of the most likely true content of Scripture.

The Baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 is problematic, and many experts have pointed that out.

I will give a brief summary of why is problematic so you all have reference to do your own research.

Internal evidence:

1 The baptismal formula in Mt. 28:19 has no parallel passages. None of the other Gospels repeats the formula.

2 No one in the NT was baptized as per Mt. 28:19. All were baptized as per Acts 2:38.

3 When Peter 10 days after the alleged Mt. 28:19 formula was given, rose up and gave a different one, the other disciples did not raise an objection in the way of: " yo Peter, that ain't what the Master told us to say".

4 Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a phrase in what is known as "liturgical jargon", a style of speech, not used by Jesus Christ.


External evidence:

1 The Catholic Church has records of baptism dating way back. And lo and behold, up to certain time, all persons were baptized as per Acts 2:38, none as per Mt. 28:19. Curiously enough after some time mysteriously that was changed, and no reason for it stated.

2 Eusebius was alarmed and warning that Atanasius was changing Scripture. Remember that at that time they were battling the heresy of Arrianism.

3 The only 2 mentions of the Mt. 28:19 formula are found in the Didache, and Justin Martyr. As extra canonical sources, they cannot be placed above the internal evidence given by the Bible itself.

4 The Hebrew version of the Gospel of Matthew (believed to be earlier to the Greek version), does not have the Mt. 28:19 modern formula.

So many serious researchers have come to the conclusion that the Baptismal formula found in modern versions in Mt. 28:19 is spurious.

Does it matter for all practical purposes: If we understand that God gives precise orders on what to do to enter the New Covenant, it may have.

And what is more alarming is the the Bible itself prophesies about this:

Luke 21:17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.

Different angle for further research, reflection and comment.

Kind regards.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
14,048
1,465
113
#15
If you read and believe the Word, you know that Jesus may be called the Everlasting Father, Almighty God, Prince of Peace. Wonderful, Comforter and more.

That pretty much covers that when anyone is baptized in the namme of Jesus Christ, all those others apply also.

I have a good conscience in the sight of god about this, although the only truly important lesson on salvation is believing Jesus Christ is our Salvation. Ask the thief on the crosss.
 
Nov 26, 2018
87
32
18
#16
If you read and believe the Word, you know that Jesus may be called the Everlasting Father, Almighty God, Prince of Peace. Wonderful, Comforter and more.

That pretty much covers that when anyone is baptized in the namme of Jesus Christ, all those others apply also.

I have a good conscience in the sight of god about this, although the only truly important lesson on salvation is believing Jesus Christ is our Salvation. Ask the thief on the crosss.
Yes I understand what you are trying to say. But the originator of the thread (in my understanding) was trying to highlight the fact that if Peter has the keys to the Kingdom, and if he was prompted by the Holy Spirit to give a very particular formula for complying with one of the requirements of the New Covenant, why Leadership in most traditions have not done anything about the problem with the alleged spurious formula in Mt. 28:19?

We as believers have the undelegable task to look into this deeply, because the effectiveness of our entrance to the New Covenant may depend on strict adherence to the prescribed manner.

If I am not mistaken, there is a tradition that has a very strange hypothesis about this:

Infiltrated tares have mislead believers into buying a spurious formula, in an attempt to eventually push an occult agenda that will try to lead believers into the adoration of a false trinity: the antichrist, the false prophet, and the beast.

The Bible warns that many will fall for the trap. Are we as believers looking into detail about this as expected of us, to check If things are so?

Who in your opinion is the Being described in Revelation 1:12-18? Coincidentally seems to be the same Being described in Is 9:6, and jibes neatly with Zechariah 14:9:

9 And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; on that day Yahweh will be one and his name one.

So how do we reconcile this with an antichrist, false prophet and beast being adored by persons that did not have their names written in the Book of Life?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
14,048
1,465
113
#17
This is the point of my response.…...if a person baptizes in the sight of God with a clean conscience…..there is no difference in the two manners cited….Sorry, I did not mean to corrupt the thread, I though I was helping.

God bless all ..
 
Nov 26, 2018
87
32
18
#18
This is the point of my response.…...if a person baptizes in the sight of God with a clean conscience…..there is no difference in the two manners cited….Sorry, I did not mean to corrupt the thread, I though I was helping.

God bless all ..
We are exploring issues underlying the thread topic:

Question: In Circumcision you had to cut the whole fold in OT according to the requirements... If someone in good conscience cut 99% of it, because of some alleged reason someone allowed to enter in their texts, would that make the person enter the Old Covenant with no problem?

Understand I am not attacking any position. I am just exploring something that I consider is important and valid for deep research.

We have to check to see if things are so, only by talking frankly about particular subjects may we start to know and understand other angles that may illuminate the subject.
 
Nov 27, 2018
99
26
18
#19
Hi JaumeJ:

I am not an expert, but studying a bit there is a problem in the issue:

The field of textual criticism uses in general two methodologies to try to get to the truth of the matter.

Internal evidence and external evidence. When you use both, you gain a better idea of the most likely true content of Scripture.

The Baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 is problematic, and many experts have pointed that out.

I will give a brief summary of why is problematic so you all have reference to do your own research.

Internal evidence:

1 The baptismal formula in Mt. 28:19 has no parallel passages. None of the other Gospels repeats the formula.

2 No one in the NT was baptized as per Mt. 28:19. All were baptized as per Acts 2:38.

3 When Peter 10 days after the alleged Mt. 28:19 formula was given, rose up and gave a different one, the other disciples did not raise an objection in the way of: " yo Peter, that ain't what the Master told us to say".

4 Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a phrase in what is known as "liturgical jargon", a style of speech, not used by Jesus Christ.


External evidence:

1 The Catholic Church has records of baptism dating way back. And lo and behold, up to certain time, all persons were baptized as per Acts 2:38, none as per Mt. 28:19. Curiously enough after some time mysteriously that was changed, and no reason for it stated.

2 Eusebius was alarmed and warning that Atanasius was changing Scripture. Remember that at that time they were battling the heresy of Arrianism.

3 The only 2 mentions of the Mt. 28:19 formula are found in the Didache, and Justin Martyr. As extra canonical sources, they cannot be placed above the internal evidence given by the Bible itself.

4 The Hebrew version of the Gospel of Matthew (believed to be earlier to the Greek version), does not have the Mt. 28:19 modern formula.

So many serious researchers have come to the conclusion that the Baptismal formula found in modern versions in Mt. 28:19 is spurious.

Does it matter for all practical purposes: If we understand that God gives precise orders on what to do to enter the New Covenant, it may have.

And what is more alarming is the the Bible itself prophesies about this:

Luke 21:17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.

Different angle for further research, reflection and comment.

Kind regards.
Love your comment... "When Peter 10 days after the alleged Mt. 28:19 formula was given, rose up and gave a different one, the other disciples did not raise an objection in the way of: " yo Peter, that ain't what the Master told us to say".

Jesus said to baptize "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" What is the name?

"For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Col 2:9

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col 3:17
 
Nov 27, 2018
99
26
18
#20
Hi JaumeJ:

I am not an expert, but studying a bit there is a problem in the issue:

The field of textual criticism uses in general two methodologies to try to get to the truth of the matter.

Internal evidence and external evidence. When you use both, you gain a better idea of the most likely true content of Scripture.

The Baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 is problematic, and many experts have pointed that out.

I will give a brief summary of why is problematic so you all have reference to do your own research.

Internal evidence:

1 The baptismal formula in Mt. 28:19 has no parallel passages. None of the other Gospels repeats the formula.

2 No one in the NT was baptized as per Mt. 28:19. All were baptized as per Acts 2:38.

3 When Peter 10 days after the alleged Mt. 28:19 formula was given, rose up and gave a different one, the other disciples did not raise an objection in the way of: " yo Peter, that ain't what the Master told us to say".

4 Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a phrase in what is known as "liturgical jargon", a style of speech, not used by Jesus Christ.


External evidence:

1 The Catholic Church has records of baptism dating way back. And lo and behold, up to certain time, all persons were baptized as per Acts 2:38, none as per Mt. 28:19. Curiously enough after some time mysteriously that was changed, and no reason for it stated.

2 Eusebius was alarmed and warning that Atanasius was changing Scripture. Remember that at that time they were battling the heresy of Arrianism.

3 The only 2 mentions of the Mt. 28:19 formula are found in the Didache, and Justin Martyr. As extra canonical sources, they cannot be placed above the internal evidence given by the Bible itself.

4 The Hebrew version of the Gospel of Matthew (believed to be earlier to the Greek version), does not have the Mt. 28:19 modern formula.

So many serious researchers have come to the conclusion that the Baptismal formula found in modern versions in Mt. 28:19 is spurious.

Does it matter for all practical purposes: If we understand that God gives precise orders on what to do to enter the New Covenant, it may have.

And what is more alarming is the the Bible itself prophesies about this:

Luke 21:17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.

Different angle for further research, reflection and comment.

Kind regards.
I enjoy studying. Time to buy a new book. In what publication can this information about Eusebius be found? ? "Eusebius was alarmed and warning that Atanasius was changing Scripture. Remember that at that time they were battling the heresy of Arrianism."