Born blind. Sin before born?

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Mar 12, 2019
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#1
John 9:2: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

The person was born blind.
How a person can sin before he was born (according to the disciples)?
Why did the disciples ask ".. who did sin, this man, ..?" for being born blind.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,266
5,680
113
#2
Hello and welcome to CC! :)

Jesus addressed their question without justifying it. There is nothing in the passage to suggest that a person can actually sin before they are born. The disciples may have been referring to some cultural beliefs of the day, but that doesn't mean those beliefs are rooted in reality.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,292
1,668
113
#3
John 9:2: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

The person was born blind.
How a person can sin before he was born (according to the disciples)?
Why did the disciples ask ".. who did sin, this man, ..?" for being born blind.
Yea sometimes the disciples asked some really silly questions.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,372
15,186
113
#4
John 9:2: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

The person was born blind.
How a person can sin before he was born (according to the disciples)?
Why did the disciples ask ".. who did sin, this man, ..?" for being born blind.
No one sins before birth......the bible does say that the wicked go astray from the womb......Jesus fully explains this....he was born this way so the power of God in Christ could be made manifest and known........
 
Mar 29, 2019
75
52
18
#5
The disciples didn't really ask silly questions, we just don't understand where they are coming from because we are not brought up Jewish. I suppose this instance would go all the way back to Deuteronomy 28 where, as part of the covenant (with Israel, not gentiles) God promised that if they followed him they would be blessed with easy lives (good crops and livestock, peace with enemies, healthy family, etc.) but if they fell away, the opposite. You pretty much need to read the whole chapter, but vv 1-14 outlines the blessings, vv 15-26 outlines the curses.

I don't have the references but I also think there are verses which talk about curses to certain sinners that fall to them and/or following generations. (Solomon comes to mind, he was not a good king, but 'for the sake of his father, David' his kingdom was taken away only after Solomon died).

So I think there question is reasonable. And as Jesus replies, this one was not due to anyone's sin but for the glorification of God.


Deu 28:1 And it will be, if you shall listen carefully to the voice of Jehovah your God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you today, Jehovah your God will set you on high above all nations of the earth.
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you, if you will listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.
Deu 28:3 You shall be blessed in the city, and be blessed in the field.
Deu 28:4 The fruit of your body shall be blessed, and the fruit of your ground, and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep.
Deu 28:5 Your basket and your store shall be blessed.
Deu 28:6 You shall be blessed when you come in, and blessed when you go out.
..and so on.

Deu 28:15 And it shall be, if you will not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, to observe and to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, all these curses shall come on you and overtake you.
Deu 28:16 You shall be cursed in the city, and cursed in the field.
Deu 28:17 Your basket and your store shall be cursed.
Deu 28:18 The fruit of your body shall be cursed, and the fruit of your land, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep.
Deu 28:19 You shall be cursed when you come in, and cursed when you go out.
..and so on - it gets pretty rough.

including..
Deu 28:28 Jehovah shall strike you with madness and blindness, and astonishment of heart.
Deu 28:59 then Jehovah will make your plagues remarkable, and the plagues of your seed great and persistent plagues; with evil and long-lasting sicknesses.
Deu 28:61 Also, every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this Law, Jehovah will bring them on you until you are destroyed.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,251
421
83
#6
The disciples didn't really ask silly questions, we just don't understand where they are coming from because we are not brought up Jewish. I suppose this instance would go all the way back to Deuteronomy 28 where, as part of the covenant (with Israel, not gentiles) God promised that if they followed him they would be blessed with easy lives (good crops and livestock, peace with enemies, healthy family, etc.) but if they fell away, the opposite. You pretty much need to read the whole chapter, but vv 1-14 outlines the blessings, vv 15-26 outlines the curses.

I don't have the references but I also think there are verses which talk about curses to certain sinners that fall to them and/or following generations. (Solomon comes to mind, he was not a good king, but 'for the sake of his father, David' his kingdom was taken away only after Solomon died).

So I think there question is reasonable. And as Jesus replies, this one was not due to anyone's sin but for the glorification of God.


Deu 28:1 And it will be, if you shall listen carefully to the voice of Jehovah your God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you today, Jehovah your God will set you on high above all nations of the earth.
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you, if you will listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.
Deu 28:3 You shall be blessed in the city, and be blessed in the field.
Deu 28:4 The fruit of your body shall be blessed, and the fruit of your ground, and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep.
Deu 28:5 Your basket and your store shall be blessed.
Deu 28:6 You shall be blessed when you come in, and blessed when you go out.
..and so on.

Deu 28:15 And it shall be, if you will not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, to observe and to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, all these curses shall come on you and overtake you.
Deu 28:16 You shall be cursed in the city, and cursed in the field.
Deu 28:17 Your basket and your store shall be cursed.
Deu 28:18 The fruit of your body shall be cursed, and the fruit of your land, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep.
Deu 28:19 You shall be cursed when you come in, and cursed when you go out.
..and so on - it gets pretty rough.

including..
Deu 28:28 Jehovah shall strike you with madness and blindness, and astonishment of heart.
Deu 28:59 then Jehovah will make your plagues remarkable, and the plagues of your seed great and persistent plagues; with evil and long-lasting sicknesses.
Deu 28:61 Also, every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this Law, Jehovah will bring them on you until you are destroyed.
Your correct, the disciples did not ask silly questions. Jesus was followed by large crowds everywhere He went, possibly thousands of people, of those thousands He hand picked 12 to be within His inner circle. I dont believe Jesus, Son of the Most High, the Christ would pick imbeciles.

The scripture in question, IMO has to do with pre existence. The idea that our soul existed before birth. An idea that all Jewish sects (exception of Sadducees) believed in. and all Christians continued to believe this until around 500 when the new “imperial” church decided to get rid of the teaching. Jesus taught that corrupt church leaders hid information so its not surprising to see the same thing going on years later.

On a side note the sadducee didnt believe in angels, heaven or pretty much anything spiritual which is weird being as they were a religious sect. IMO they dont really count as a religious sect so one could just as easily say all Jewish sects at the time of Jesus believed in pre existance. The Essenes, sect of John the baptist, wrote quite a bit on it.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,336
2,090
113
#8
John 9:2: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

The person was born blind.
How a person can sin before he was born (according to the disciples)?
Why did the disciples ask ".. who did sin, this man, ..?" for being born blind.
The disciples where not all knowing infallable people.. They where limted human beings like all others on the earth and had some weird idea's.. If you have some false ideas you end up asking silly questions and thats what the disciples did in this instance..

A person cannot sin before they have the knowledge of Good and Evil.. A person cannot sin before they are born..

Jesus in this case instructed them in the truth..

John 9: KJV
2 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? {3} Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,292
1,668
113
#9
The disciples where not all knowing infallable people.. They where limted human beings like all others on the earth and had some weird idea's.. If you have some false ideas you end up asking silly questions and thats what the disciples did in this instance..

A person cannot sin before they have the knowledge of Good and Evil.. A person cannot sin before they are born..

Jesus in this case instructed them in the truth..

John 9: KJV
2 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? {3} Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
Yea I would rather go with that then the explanation oh they were just being Jewish.

Lol. Nicodemus also asked something silly. How can a man be born again? JEsus had to explain.
Thomas also asked for Jesus to show him his hands and feet otherwise he wouldnt believe, even though Jesus was standing there alive right in front of him.
Mary asked Jesus where he had hid his body...and also mistook him for the gardener.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,336
2,090
113
#10
Yea I would rather go with that then the explanation oh they were just being Jewish.

Lol. Nicodemus also asked something silly. How can a man be born again? JEsus had to explain.
Thomas also asked for Jesus to show him his hands and feet otherwise he wouldnt believe, even though Jesus was standing there alive right in front of him.
Mary asked Jesus where he had hid his body...and also mistook him for the gardener.
Well in the case of Thomas he was away when Jesus first appeared to the others and he did not believe them and he said that he would not believe until He saw the wounds of Jesus, He said this to the other apostles when he had jet to see Jesus..

John 20: KJV
24"¶ But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. {25} The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
 
Mar 12, 2019
34
3
8
#11
Your correct, the disciples did not ask silly questions. Jesus was followed by large crowds everywhere He went, possibly thousands of people, of those thousands He hand picked 12 to be within His inner circle. I dont believe Jesus, Son of the Most High, the Christ would pick imbeciles.

The scripture in question, IMO has to do with pre existence. The idea that our soul existed before birth. An idea that all Jewish sects (exception of Sadducees) believed in. and all Christians continued to believe this until around 500 when the new “imperial” church decided to get rid of the teaching. Jesus taught that corrupt church leaders hid information so its not surprising to see the same thing going on years later.

On a side note the sadducee didnt believe in angels, heaven or pretty much anything spiritual which is weird being as they were a religious sect. IMO they dont really count as a religious sect so one could just as easily say all Jewish sects at the time of Jesus believed in pre existance. The Essenes, sect of John the baptist, wrote quite a bit on it.
Did disciples believe that we are living our second life on this earth?
Did they believe that there was a life (for our soul) before our birth?
 
Mar 12, 2019
34
3
8
#12
No one sins before birth......the bible does say that the wicked go astray from the womb......Jesus fully explains this....he was born this way so the power of God in Christ could be made manifest and known........
What about the people who born blind and died blind without receiving the power of God?
What is the reason those people born blind? Sin of who?
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,101
336
83
#13
John 9:2: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

The person was born blind.
How a person can sin before he was born (according to the disciples)?
Why did the disciples ask ".. who did sin, this man, ..?" for being born blind.
Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

You did not give the rest of the story for Jesus said nobody sinned that was the cause of the man being born blind.

And we know we are not in the garden of Eden, and neither does the world get it like that, and we are in the flesh, so some people will be born with defects, and deformities as part of our physical aspect, but these people born with defects can cause the glory of God to be shown when they are healed.

God said all sin is unrighteousness, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all, so if a person has a defect as a result of their parents sinning then we would all have a defect at birth.

And we are born innocent, and that is why the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones, but we are born not knowing God, so we will sin before we come to God in the truth, and repent, so all have sinned, done the act, not born with it, and come short of the glory of God.
 
Mar 12, 2019
34
3
8
#14
The disciples didn't really ask silly questions, we just don't understand where they are coming from because we are not brought up Jewish. I suppose this instance would go all the way back to Deuteronomy 28 where, as part of the covenant (with Israel, not gentiles) God promised that if they followed him they would be blessed with easy lives (good crops and livestock, peace with enemies, healthy family, etc.) but if they fell away, the opposite. You pretty much need to read the whole chapter, but vv 1-14 outlines the blessings, vv 15-26 outlines the curses.

I don't have the references but I also think there are verses which talk about curses to certain sinners that fall to them and/or following generations. (Solomon comes to mind, he was not a good king, but 'for the sake of his father, David' his kingdom was taken away only after Solomon died).

So I think there question is reasonable. And as Jesus replies, this one was not due to anyone's sin but for the glorification of God.


Deu 28:1 And it will be, if you shall listen carefully to the voice of Jehovah your God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you today, Jehovah your God will set you on high above all nations of the earth.
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you, if you will listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.
Deu 28:3 You shall be blessed in the city, and be blessed in the field.
Deu 28:4 The fruit of your body shall be blessed, and the fruit of your ground, and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep.
Deu 28:5 Your basket and your store shall be blessed.
Deu 28:6 You shall be blessed when you come in, and blessed when you go out.
..and so on.

Deu 28:15 And it shall be, if you will not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, to observe and to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, all these curses shall come on you and overtake you.
Deu 28:16 You shall be cursed in the city, and cursed in the field.
Deu 28:17 Your basket and your store shall be cursed.
Deu 28:18 The fruit of your body shall be cursed, and the fruit of your land, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep.
Deu 28:19 You shall be cursed when you come in, and cursed when you go out.
..and so on - it gets pretty rough.

including..
Deu 28:28 Jehovah shall strike you with madness and blindness, and astonishment of heart.
Deu 28:59 then Jehovah will make your plagues remarkable, and the plagues of your seed great and persistent plagues; with evil and long-lasting sicknesses.
Deu 28:61 Also, every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this Law, Jehovah will bring them on you until you are destroyed.
If curse of the parents comes to the generation, why should that person be born for a wicked parent and inherit all curses from parents?
There must be a reason, a person born to a wicked parent.
 

Miri

The Thingy Member
Jul 22, 2012
9,253
2,252
113
UK age 51
#15
If curse of the parents comes to the generation, why should that person be born for a wicked parent and inherit all curses from parents?
There must be a reason, a person born to a wicked parent.
It’s an interesting question. I suspect it’s generational due to upbringing.
So if ungodly unrepentant parents have children, they will teach their children
their own morals and standards. In that sense the children will inherit the ungodly
immoral ways of the parents etc.

It’s why the bible says to
Proverbs 22:6 NKJV
[6] Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

If it’s possible to bring up a child in a healthy Godly environment, then the opposite
is also possible. You only have to look around at society today to see it happening. You can
see the decline in bible believing Christians.

But despite that God will still forgive both parent, child and grandparent etc if they
turn to Him and repent.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,251
421
83
#16
Did disciples believe that we are living our second life on this earth?
Did they believe that there was a life (for our soul) before our birth?
they believed souls existed before we are born into bodies in this place. how they existed, in what form is open to debate.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,292
1,668
113
#17
they believed souls existed before we are born into bodies in this place. how they existed, in what form is open to debate.
Isnt that also a hindu belief though. Bad karma and all that. Would it not be a typical jewish belief though. As far as I know Jews dont believe in that kind of reincarnation, but they do sometimes talk of 'the life to come'.
Some jewish men say Im glad I was not born a gentile or a woman. I dont know if they are more hindu in that respect regarding station of life and as caste bound as the hindus are.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,372
15,186
113
#18
What about the people who born blind and died blind without receiving the power of God?
What is the reason those people born blind? Sin of who?
The sin of no one.........Solomon said time and chance happen unto all.......and your principle could be taken down to the proverbial "tenth" degree.....

Why do innocent children die in the womb
Why do innocent children get cancer and die at age 1, 2 or even 10
Why are people born poor in South America while a Vanderbilt child is born rich and with a silver spoon in their mouth
Why does the believer that is faithful die in Syria as a child by ISIS while a wicked man like Charles Manson live to be 80 on America's dime

Them being born blind and dying blind had zero to do with sin or a punishment of sin by the father or mother....God done away with that so they could not throw it in his face.....Helen Keller was born both blind and deaf....she was successful and a believer.......it has nothing to do with sin.......TIME and CHANCE and if anything a corruption of the gene pool

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,251
421
83
#19
Isnt that also a hindu belief though. Bad karma and all that. Would it not be a typical jewish belief though. As far as I know Jews dont believe in that kind of reincarnation, but they do sometimes talk of 'the life to come'.
Some jewish men say Im glad I was not born a gentile or a woman. I dont know if they are more hindu in that respect regarding station of life and as caste bound as the hindus are.
most hindus believe your born over and over in this world. Jews and early Christians believed your soul went to other worlds.
karma and judgment are one and the same IMO.

"The body that ye lay in the grave, or that is consumed by fire, is not the body that shall be, but they who come again shall receive other bodies, and as they have sown in one life, so shall they reap in another."
Essene teaching from Qumran
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,972
6,526
113
#20
pretty sure we know this -- but the question here is where did the disciples get the idea that this man's blindness might have been because of his own sin?

there are a couple possible explanations that come to my mind:

  • they didn't know he had been born blind at the time?
  • they actually thought he might have sinned before birth, and were looking for Jesus to explain how that could be?
  • is it an hyperbolic question - did they know that wasn't possible, but were mentioning it with emphasis on the absurdity of the thought, again looking to Jesus to explain it?
if they had been going around with the idea that disabilities like this were the result of sin, then a man born blind would be a real conundrum, unless it was the sins of the parents being visited on the children. so perhaps it really was a puzzle to them, and that's why they asked about him.

Christ's answer is sublime - that the works of God should be made manifest in him. this does not necessarily ((as the case was here)) mean so that he could be healed as a testimony to Christ's power and authority, and be sent as a witness to those who questioned him. if it were so, then everyone born with disability would be eventually healed, here on earth. but to live with some crippling malady, whether physical or mental or what have you, and to still trust God, and in doing so overcome that malady, is also a testimony in itself. as Paul, with whatever it is that was his 'thorn' -- through his faith, that thorn worked good, humbling him, and served the purpose of God even tho in some way, to the human mind, we would think a person is 'better off without it' -- it may be, if God allows it, that in fact we're better off with ;)

if i lived here on earth without need, and with no kind of handicap whatsoever, maybe i would forget God, and be vain. so i praise God for my defects! He will strengthen and perfect me as He sees fit, in His time. if i lack, i lack for His sake, even as if i have, i have for Him too.