BRIDE OF CHRIST, REFERS TO BOTH O.T. SAINTS AND N.T. SAINTS

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#1
BRIDE OF CHRIST, REFERS TO BOTH O.T. SAINTS AND N.T. SAINTS

There has been an ongoing debate between Messianic Believers and Church-age Believers, on whether the Bride of Christ is ISRAEL or the CHURCH. What, for the most part, has never been considered by either side of this debate, is both sides are only half right. When we examine what the Scriptures actually say, we will find that both O.T. Saints (genuine believers) and N.T. Saints (genuine believers) are both referred to as the Bride, and both are referred to by GOD as MY SHEEP. So why did I NOT say CHURCH, instead of using the expression N.T. Saints? UNKNOWN to all but a handful of Christians, is the fact that the word CHURCH is NOT in the Greek New Testament. The Greek N.T. actually calls the combined total of our congregations, the "ASSEMBLY". Jesus did not say "I will build My Church", He actually said, "I will build My ASSEMBLY". (I will show you that after this paragraph.) Why is using the WORD ASSEMBLY instead of Church important. Because that is the EXACT SAME THING the LORD called the Congregation of true believers in the Old Testament.

Greek NASB Number: 1577

Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]ekklêsia

Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a
(religious) congregation:--
[/FONT]
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.


OH MY, the definition of the original Greek Word was ASSEMBLY or CONGREGATION, NOT CHURCH. That error in translation goes back to English Translations older than the original KJV. Even the 1611 KJV Translation Team, admitted they were only trying to improve earlier English Translations in their Preface. As the English Language evolved, English speaking Christians gave a new name to their Assembly, and that was where Church replaced the word Assembly. They did not realize that in doing so, they were changing the definition of the original word ASSEMBLY, (which referred to both OT genuine Believers and NT genuine Believers), to mean ONLY Church-age Believers. THAT IS A MAJOR ERROR IN THE INTENT OF THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE TRANSTLATIONS.

So let's look at what the Scriptures actually say:

John 10:11-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and doesn’t own the sheep, leaves them
and runs away when he sees a wolf coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] ⌊This happens⌋ because he is a hired man and doesn’t care about the sheep.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] “I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
"


Most theologians agree that the Birthday of the Church is the Day of Pentecost. Some will say the Birthay of the Church is when the Sacrifice for our sins was complete, ("It is finished"), or at or after his Resurrection, when HE sat Down at the Right Hand of the Father. No matter which you believe, this fold , in the verse above CANNOT REFER TO THE CHURCH. He is talking to the LAST of the O.T. Saints, and the, other sheep , refers to N.T. Saints. I recently, stumbled across absolute proof of this interpretation, while searching for something else:

Jeremiah 23:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of My pasture!" declares the LORD.


Ezekiel 34:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] "As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.


It burdens my heart that there are many MANY Messianic Jews and Born Again Christians who do not realize we are SHEEP OF THE SAME PASTURE. It is HIGH TIME, we realize that and TRULY become the ONE FLOCK HE DESIRES US TO BE.

Here are most of the other verses that convinced me that the Bride of Christ is the sum total of all true believers from Adam through the Last Martyred Saint of the Great Tribulation:





What about the Old Testament Saints?

I believe the Bride is the sum total of all true believers of all time.


We NT saints are those who believe Jesus is the Messiah and received HIM as Lord.


The OT saints are those who believed Messiah would come and received HIM, EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW NOT WHAT HIS NAME WOULD BE.


See it, it is the same faith, the Faith of Abraham.

Jeremiah 2:2 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]"Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: "'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown.

Isaiah 62:5 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


REMBER ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD, AND GOD KNOWS ALL, AND GOD IS PURE TRUTH.

Now, when we go to the New Testament, we read this:



Ephesians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body.

NOW IS THAT TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH LITERALLY? NO, and neither was this:

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.


However, as I stated earlier, the word CHURCH is NOT in the original language Greek Manuscripts:



Ephesians 5:23 (YLT)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] because the husband is head of the wife, as also the Christ is head of the assembly, and he is saviour of the body,

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;



WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT? The ASSEMBLY is what GOD called the gathered group of Old Testament Believers.



Leviticus 16:33 (ASV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] and he shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary; and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar; and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.



Like I pointed out, someone in the very early English Translations, (which is NOT the KJV as the Original Preface of the 1611 KJV, openly admits it is a paraphrase of earlier English translations); maybe even hated the Jews and wanted to disassociate NT Believers from OT Believers, so they substituted the word CHURCH for the literal translation THE ASSEMBLY. The first member of the ASSEMBLY was ADAM, and the last member of the ASSEMBLY that our LORD is building will be the last martyred Saint of the Great Tribulation Period. THE BRIDE OF CHRIST IS THE ASSEMBLY made up of OT Saints and NT Saints.

I repeat:

John 10:16 (YLT)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] and othersheep{NT BELIEVERS} I have that are not of this fold {OT BELIEVERS}, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock {THE ASSEMBLY}--one shepherd {THE BRIDGROOM, JESUS CHRIST}.



 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,471
2,019
113
#2
Hello VCO,

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock [I will build] my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Personally, whether you use the word "Assembly" or "Church" is not the issue. What is the issue is the word "oikodomeó" translated "I will build" which is in the future tense, meaning that from the time Jesus said it, the church/assembly was something yet to be built. I'm not quite sure if I would include the OT saints as belonging to the same entity as the Ekklesia.

But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd. "


In the scripture above, those "not of this fold" would be referring to Gentile believers. Those who are "of this fold" would be that generation of Jewish believers and not in reference to OT saints. Those who are "not of this fold" would be Gentile believers, referring to believers throughout the entire church period. In other words, "I have other sheep who are not of Israel, but are Gentile believers whom I must also bring."

The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord"

In conclusion, I am not sure whether or not I would include the OT saints as belonging to the Ekklesia, and that because "I will build" is in the future tense, referring to something that had not yet existed from the time the Lord proclaimed it. If the OT saints were included as being apart of the Ekklesia, would Jesus not have used a different word inferring to add on to what was already existing? In other words, would he have not said something like, "I will continue to build" or "I will add to" the Ekklesia?


Just my two cents worth
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,010
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#3
I have the understanding the the nation of Israel is God the Father's bride, and the church, the body of Christ, is the bride of Jesus Christ. Here's God the Father speaking concerning Israel His bride:

Jeremiah 31:32, "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:"

Here's the Lord Jesus speaking concerning His bride:
2 Corinthians 11:2, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

I'm not saying I'm right, just my two cents.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
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#4
I have the understanding the the nation of Israel is God the Father's bride, and the church, the body of Christ, is the bride of Jesus Christ. Here's God the Father speaking concerning Israel His bride:

Jeremiah 31:32, "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:"

Here's the Lord Jesus speaking concerning His bride:
2 Corinthians 11:2, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

I'm not saying I'm right, just my two cents.
Hi John 14:6,

Thanks but I don't know God the Father a bride to the nation of Israel but rather a husband unto them. All i thought is that a husband is no longer a bride. A church on the other hand is still a bride and not yet a husband until she wed Christ.

God bless you:)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
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#5
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Seems to me that the "general assembly" refers to all those OT saints excluded in the church of the firstborn as a chaste virgin. The great weeding will take place in the future being Christ as the bridegroom and the church as the bride and the OT saints including angels or host belong to the witnessess of the weeding called the general assembly.

God bless
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,964
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#6
Hello VCO,



Personally, whether you use the word "Assembly" or "Church" is not the issue. What is the issue is the word "oikodomeó" translated "I will build" which is in the future tense, meaning that from the time Jesus said it, the church/assembly was something yet to be built. I'm not quite sure if I would include the OT saints as belonging to the same entity as the Ekklesia.



[/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]In the scripture above, those "not of this fold" would be referring to Gentile believers. Those who are "of this fold" would be that generation of Jewish believers and not in reference to OT saints. Those who are "not of this fold" would be Gentile believers, referring to believers throughout the entire church period. In other words, "I have other sheep who are not of Israel, but are Gentile believers whom I must also bring."

The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord"

In conclusion, I am not sure whether or not I would include the OT saints as belonging to the Ekklesia, and that because "I will build" is in the future tense, referring to something that had not yet existed from the time the Lord proclaimed it. If the OT saints were included as being apart of the Ekklesia, would Jesus not have used a different word inferring to add on to what was already existing? In other words, would he have not said something like, "I will continue to build" or "I will add to" the Ekklesia?


Just my two cents worth
John 10:16 (YLT)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]and other sheep{NT BELIEVERS} I have that are not of this fold {OT BELIEVERS}, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock {THE ASSEMBLY}--one shepherd {THE BRIDEGROOM, JESUS CHRIST}.



Okay, so now there is going to be 6 cents on the table, because I am going to throw another two cents in the pot.

In my first post, I showed you two verses of the Old Testament, where the LORD GOD called Israel "Sheep of my Pasture"; and we also know HE inspired this to be written:

Ezekiel 34:29-31 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] "I will establish for them a renowned planting place, and they will not again be victims of famine in the land, and they will not endure the insults of the nations anymore.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] "Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are My people," declares the Lord GOD.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] "As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.

Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

I do not see your point, HE is sincerely calling ISRAEL My Sheep, of My Pasture, and HE DOES NOT CHANGE; THEREFORE all true believers of the Old Testament are STILL His Sheep of His Pasture.

Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was counted unto him as righteousness; therefore HE and everyone else in O.T. times that had the SAME FAITH as Abraham, are also SAVED.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Now correct me if I am wrong, THAT IS THE SAVING FAITH THAT ABRAHAM HAD, and it is the SAME FAITH that we have.
How on earth then can you not understand that Those Jews who Believed YAHWEH is the MESSIAH are of the SAME FOLD as those Jews who did recognize that Jesus is the MESSIAH? ? ?

You yourself said the Church was FUTURE, so Jesus could not have been talking to part of the Church. The concept that the two folds are Jewish Believers and Gentile believers make up the two folds that are the ONE CHURCH; has some MAJOR HOLES IN THAT THEORY. I believe it is clear that the TWO FOLDS are O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints.

You wanted to reject that idea, because "I will build" implies future tense, therefore it is not O.T. Believers, however, that sinks the boat too; because ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. The ASSEMBLY clearly included ABRAHAM.

Romans 4:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all


Need more proof, that O.T. Believers are ONE of the Two FOLDS? Who appeared with JESUS on the Mount of Transfiguration? Hmmmmmm! More holes in the Bottom of the Boat.

Now I will admit that I am not a Greek Scholar, in fact, I have probably learned more Greek from you, than just about anybody. However, isn't it possible that the future tense is there because the completion of the ASSEMBLY is NOT UNTIL THE LAST MARTYRED TRIBULATION SAINT IS IN HEAVEN?

I must have missed something, because I fail to see what the English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord", has to do with correctly translating ekklēsia. It still is erroneous to translate it CHURCH; it should have been ASSEMBLY.

However in all fairness, your opinion that the two folds are Jewish Believers and Gentile Believers has some biblical merit, because of the following verse, but you have to start counting the Jewish Believers from ADAM on. But what do you do with Gentile converts of the O.T., and doesn't that mean a Jewish Believer is not part of the Church? More wholes in the boat.

Jeremiah 23:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] “I will gather the remnant of My flock from all the lands where I have banished them, and I will return them to their grazing land. They will become fruitful and numerous.

I know the majority of Jewish people in O.T. time thought KEEPING THE LAW SAVED THEM. NO, obeying the Law did not save them, it came through their Faith that GOD would provide a Messiah. Trying to keep the Law, only made the aware that the truly needed a MESSIAH. It was Believing and looking for a Messiah that is the Faith of Abraham.
 
May 31, 2016
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#7
Jesus told the Jews He had sheep not of this pen- which are the Gentiles. The Gentiles were grafted into the vine. Some Jews that didn't accept Jesus were taken out of the vine, but can be grafted back in the same way the Gentiles were grafted in. Yes- there are not two different vines- there is one vine, and in that one vine there is neither Jew nor gentile, slave nor free, male nor female- we are all one in Christ. Christ's blood was shed one time for all- both Jew and Greek.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,964
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#8
Hebrews 12:23 Tothe general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and tothe spirits of just men made perfect,

Seems to me that the "general assembly" refers to all those OT saints excluded in the church of the firstborn as a chaste virgin. The great weeding will take place in the future being Christ as the bridegroom and the church as the bride and the OT saints including angels or host belong to the witnessess of the weeding called the general assembly.

God bless
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THAT VERSE, it brought another point to my mind that I had never thought of before.

Hebrews 12:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] to the general assembly and church (assembly) of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Again inserting church there, instead of ASSEMBLY, only confuses which group is which. The Assembly of the firstborn is Israel, God said so:

Exodus 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Therefore general assembly is us OTHER BELIEVERS. But what is even MORE INTERESTING is that verse, Heb. 12:23 says BOTH OF THOSE TWO GROUPS are those who are enrolled in heaven, but where in HEAVEN?

Revelation 20:14-15 (RSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13:7-8 (RSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Both Groups are co-equally SAVED, and co-equally the Bride that the BRIDEGROOM shed HIS BLOOD for, to purchase HIS BRIDE.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NRSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

Thank you again, :)
 
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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
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#9
John 10:16 (YLT)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]and other sheep{NT BELIEVERS} I have that are not of this fold{OT BELIEVERS}, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock {THE ASSEMBLY}--one shepherd {THE BRIDEGROOM, JESUS CHRIST}.
John 10:16 (KJV) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Above verse could also be likely interpreted on this way

Jesus audience of the time are those his disciples(members of NT Church) and the Pharissees (Jewish leaders) when told about his sheep and the other sheep.

The "sheep of this fold" therefore are the Jewish believers. to whom He came unto his own (John 1:11), and to whom the gospel must be first preached (1 Peter 4:17)

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The other sheep therefore are the Gentile believers. It is always believed that the Jesus Gospel or the gospel of grace or the gospel of God must be preached to the Jews then the Gentiles.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Saved, baptized Jew or Gentile believers were then added to the church.

God bless
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,964
4,073
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#10
I have the understanding the the nation of Israel is God the Father's bride, and the church, the body of Christ, is the bride of Jesus Christ. Here's God the Father speaking concerning Israel His bride:

Jeremiah 31:32, "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:"

Here's the Lord Jesus speaking concerning His bride:
2 Corinthians 11:2, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

I'm not saying I'm right, just my two cents.
Oh you should have been with me in Church today. The Sermon was explaining the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. The THREE truly are ONE GOD, you seem to be not grasping that part of the Doctrine.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Luke 2:11 (NIV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

John 10:38 (NKJV)
[SUP]38[/SUP] but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
 
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Apr 8, 2016
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#11
Great sermon, and so important, especially when making a distinction between the True and Living God of the bible, and all the hundreds of false gods out there that ppl by the millions are bowing down to.

John15:26
Luke3:22
KJV
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
113
#12
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THAT VERSE, it brought another point to my mind that I had never thought of before.

Hebrews 12:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] to the general assembly and church (assembly) of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Again inserting church there, instead of ASSEMBLY, only confuses which group is which. The Assembly of the firstborn is Israel, God said so:

Exodus 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Therefore general assembly is us OTHER BELIEVERS. But what is even MORE INTERESTING is that verse, Heb. 12:23 says BOTH OF THOSE TWO GROUPS are those who are enrolled in heaven, but where in HEAVEN?

Revelation 20:14-15 (RSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13:7-8 (RSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Both Groups are co-equally SAVED, and co-equally the Bride that the BRIDEGROOM shed HIS BLOOD for, to purchase HIS BRIDE.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NRSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

Thank you again, :)
Here also citation in the NT that the firstborn may also refers to Christ which is a more accurate idea in my opinion since in Hebrews 12:24, speaks of Jesus speaketh better things that of Abel (OT saint). If this firstborn refers to the OT saints who are enrolled in heaven as the NASB says therefore this contradict the teachings that OT saints who went to Paradise as the abode of the dead OT saints until Christ brought them to heaven (Luke 23:43).

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Colosians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

God bless
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,964
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#13
Jesus told the Jews He had sheep not of this pen- which are the Gentiles. The Gentiles were grafted into the vine. Some Jews that didn't accept Jesus were taken out of the vine, but can be grafted back in the same way the Gentiles were grafted in. Yes- there are not two different vines- there is one vine, and in that one vine there is neither Jew nor gentile, slave nor free, male nor female- we are all one in Christ. Christ's blood was shed one time for all- both Jew and Greek.
That last sentence is talking about our POSITION IN CHRIST IN HEAVEN.

Our Positions here one earth are a whole different ball game:

1 Timothy 6:1-2 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] All slaves who believe must give complete respect to their own masters. In this way no one will speak evil of God's name and what we teach.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Slaves whose masters also believe should respect their masters even though their masters are also believers. As a result, believers who are slaves should serve their masters even better because those who receive the benefit of their work are believers whom they love. Teach and encourage people to do these things.

Matthew 26:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me.

Genesis 13:2 (ASV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

1 Timothy 6:10 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some (as in not all) have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.

Matthew 8:5-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] When He entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible agony!”
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “I will come and heal him,” He told him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] “Lord,” the centurion replied, “I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But only say the word, and my servant will be cured.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For I too am a man under authority, having soldiers under my command. I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Hearing this, Jesus was amazed and said to those following Him, “I assure you: I have not found anyone in Israel with so great a faith!

1 Timothy 2:12 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Ephesians 6:5 (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Slaves, obey your earthly masters with proper respect. Be as sincere as you are when you obey Christ.

Ephesians 6:9 (GW)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Masters, treat your slaves with respect. Don't threaten a slave. You know that there is one master in heaven who has authority over both of you, and he doesn't play favorites.

NOW BEFORE ANYONE GETS THE WRONG IDEA, in BIBLE times a poor person could volunteer to become a Slave of a rich person, improving his quality of living to be better than he could earn as a poor man or beggar. It was a respectable position and came with a room, food, and clothing, that you could not earn on your own.

We all have different earthly roles, and the Word of God gives us specific instructions how we fulfill those roles in a way that CONFORMS to HIS WILL.

In HEAVEN, we are all considered co-equally saved believers in CHRIST, even tho our roles here on earth are DIFFERENT.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,964
4,073
113
#14
Here also citation in the NT that the firstborn may also refers to Christ which is a more accurate idea in my opinion since in Hebrews 12:24, speaks of Jesus speaketh better things that of Abel (OT saint). If this firstborn refers to the OT saints who are enrolled in heaven as the NASB says therefore this contradict the teachings that OT saints who went to Paradise as the abode of the dead OT saints until Christ brought them to heaven (Luke 23:43).

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Colosians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

God bless
Did you read what I wrote?

Who said anything about BEING IN HEAVEN PRIOR to Christ's Crucifixion?

The verses I posted said that meant the writing of our NAMES in the Lamb's Book of Life prior to the foundation of the earth.

Here it is in a modern English Translation:

Hebrews 12:23-24 (GW)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You have come to Jesus, who brings the new promise from God, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.

And the LOCATION OF PARADISE IS IN THE BIBLE, and apparently it is not where you thought. The secret to understanding where PARADISE is, lies in understanding where the Tree of Life was moved to after ADAM and Eve SINNED.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ASV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
[SUP]4 [/SUP] how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the THIRD HEAVEN, the eternal dwelling place of GOD.
The SECOND HEAVEN is the Universe, as in the Stars of Heaven.
The FIRST HEAVEN is the Atmosphere, as in the rains fell from Heaven.

Revelation 22:1-2 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
113
#15
Did you read what I wrote?

Who said anything about BEING IN HEAVEN PRIOR to Christ's Crucifixion?

The verses I posted said that meant the writing of our NAMES in the Lamb's Book of Life prior to the foundation of the earth.

Here it is in a modern English Translation:

Hebrews 12:23-24 (GW)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You have come to Jesus, who brings the new promise from God, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.

And the LOCATION OF PARADISE IS IN THE BIBLE, and apparently it is not where you thought. The secret to understanding where PARADISE is, lies in understanding where the Tree of Life was moved to after ADAM and Eve SINNED.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ASV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
[SUP]4 [/SUP] how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the THIRD HEAVEN, the eternal dwelling place of GOD.
The SECOND HEAVEN is the Universe, as in the Stars of Heaven.
The FIRST HEAVEN is the Atmosphere, as in the rains fell from Heaven.

Revelation 22:1-2 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
Thank you, but still some major translations of the Bible like NKJV, NIV, ASV including he WEB has "church of the firstborn" which literally Christ being the firstborn is in harmony with the scriptural teaching of Colosians 1:18

Colosians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is thebeginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ is the firstborn, so that the general assembly are the OT. saints as the word "assembly" were almost used in the OT especially of Israel.

Thanks
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,010
2,283
113
#16
Oh you should have been with me in Church today. The Sermon was explaining the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. The THREE truly are ONE GOD, you seem to be not grasping that part of the Doctrine.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Luke 2:11 (NIV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

John 10:38 (NKJV)
[SUP]38[/SUP] but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Thanks, but I know very well the trinity. There is such a thing as three in one.

1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

I"m guessing this verse is not even in your Bible.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,010
2,283
113
#17
Did you read what I wrote?

Who said anything about BEING IN HEAVEN PRIOR to Christ's Crucifixion?

The verses I posted said that meant the writing of our NAMES in the Lamb's Book of Life prior to the foundation of the earth.

Here it is in a modern English Translation:

Hebrews 12:23-24 (GW)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You have come to Jesus, who brings the new promise from God, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.

And the LOCATION OF PARADISE IS IN THE BIBLE, and apparently it is not where you thought. The secret to understanding where PARADISE is, lies in understanding where the Tree of Life was moved to after ADAM and Eve SINNED.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ASV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
[SUP]4 [/SUP] how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the THIRD HEAVEN, the eternal dwelling place of GOD.
The SECOND HEAVEN is the Universe, as in the Stars of Heaven.
The FIRST HEAVEN is the Atmosphere, as in the rains fell from Heaven.

Revelation 22:1-2 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
The location of paradise was Abraham's bosom before Christ translated it to heaven. It's current position is the third heaven.
 
Dec 10, 2015
494
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#18
There is only one God. Jesus said that when you see Him you also see the Father. BUT there are 3 separate persons totally different in themselves.

Matthew 3:16-
[SUP]16 [/SUP]After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

One God three persons!
 

FreeNChrist

Senior Member
Aug 24, 2015
7,877
163
0
#19
Is not the church, the ecclesia, comprised of all of the "called out ones"? And wouldn't that include all of the "called out ones" going all the way back to Adam and Eve??
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,956
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#20
FNC,

we are not often on the 'same=page' about a lot of things, but Brother,
you are spot-on in your post...we appreciate your understanding of this subject...

LUKE 13:28.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob,
and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

1PETER 1:10-11.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace
that should come unto you:

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.