By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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I "get it" brightfame52. I do not believe in your version of who is the "Elect". You seem to believe God's Elect is mankind in general.

I believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ.
You way off as to what this thread is about !
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Im not wasting time with that question, all the explaining i have been doing, you have totally ignored.
Yet you waste your time saying you won't answer. Interesting.

I have loads of questions..

What do you mean by 'God's wrath'?

You mean the wages and consequences of sin?
Do you think the cursing of the ground and the burden of Adam are His wrath?
How about the flood, was that His wrath? If the flood is His wrath, has His wrath been shown again ever since? Sodom and Gomorrah, was that His wrath?
What are you calling wrath, that you say all believers have been spared from, even when they were not believers?
Do you even believe that any believer was at one time not a believer?
How about if you lie and your sin finds you out, is that God's wrath or is it just rhw wages of your sin? Or is the wages of sin God's wrath? Would sin not have consequences if not for God being wrathful about it? Or does sin necessarily have consequences? Do Christians have no consequences for their sin?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,259
547
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Yet you waste your time saying you won't answer. Interesting.

I have loads of questions..

What do you mean by 'God's wrath'?

You mean the wages and consequences of sin?
Do you think the cursing of the ground and the burden of Adam are His wrath?
How about the flood, was that His wrath? If the flood is His wrath, has His wrath been shown again ever since? Sodom and Gomorrah, was that His wrath?
What are you calling wrath, that you say all believers have been spared from, even when they were not believers?
Do you even believe that any believer was at one time not a believer?
How about if you lie and your sin finds you out, is that God's wrath or is it just rhw wages of your sin? Or is the wages of sin God's wrath? Would sin not have consequences if not for God being wrathful about it? Or does sin necessarily have consequences? Do Christians have no consequences for their sin?
Thats why Im not wasting time to explain your questions. I will only spend time explaining my posts !
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
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Thats why Im not wasting time to explain your questions. I will only spend time explaining my posts !
You have no problem wasting your time saying you won't say anything, so could you please point me at what post answers any of my questions? I don't have the luxury of enough time to read everything.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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we . . . were by nature the children of wrath, even as others

The origin of humanity's wrath-worthy nature is interesting.

There was a time when I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit
had something to do with it; but now I seriously doubt it because the woman
was the first to eat the fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She
remained just as shameless in the buff as before. It wasn't till Adam tasted
the fruit that the woman began to feel exposed; so I'm pretty sure that the
underlying cause is far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.

At the same time, I was sure that the wrath-worthy nature was transmitted
to children by means of their biological fathers. But whence did Eve get it?
She was constructed of material taken from Adam's body, but that was
before he tasted the fruit so he couldn't transmit the nature to her by means
of heredity.

Ruling out Adam, and ruling out the fruit; we're left with two alternatives:
either God did it to them or the Serpent did it. My money is on the Serpent,
a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Soon after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.

I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
biological fathers propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all
along.

How he has managed to deceive so many people for so long a time I don't
know, but what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits,
and chairing whole Sunday school departments, helping him do it as
unsuspecting accomplices; which goes to show that if an idea is repeated
often enough, widely enough, and loud enough by people held in high
regard; pretty soon it's accepted by the masses as fact without thought or
question.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.[/size]
( Thomas Paine )

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?


A: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & 58:3)
_
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,259
547
113
.



The origin of humanity's wrath-worthy nature is interesting.

There was a time when I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit
had something to do with it; but now I seriously doubt it because the woman
was the first to eat the fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She
remained just as shameless in the buff as before. It wasn't till Adam tasted
the fruit that the woman began to feel exposed; so I'm pretty sure that the
underlying cause is far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.

At the same time, I was sure that the wrath-worthy nature was transmitted
to children by means of their biological fathers. But whence did Eve get it?
She was constructed of material taken from Adam's body, but that was
before he tasted the fruit so he couldn't transmit the nature to her by means
of heredity.

Ruling out Adam, and ruling out the fruit; we're left with two alternatives:
either God did it to them or the Serpent did it. My money is on the Serpent,
a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Soon after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.

I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
biological fathers propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all
along.

How he has managed to deceive so many people for so long a time I don't
know, but what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits,
and chairing whole Sunday school departments, helping him do it as
unsuspecting accomplices; which goes to show that if an idea is repeated
often enough, widely enough, and loud enough by people held in high
regard; pretty soon it's accepted by the masses as fact without thought or
question.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.[/size]
( Thomas Paine )

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?


A: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & 58:3)
_
Hi Do you understand the point of the OP ?
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,757
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Oregon
cfbac.org
.
Getting back to the wrath-worthy nature spoken of in Eph 2:1-3

Gen 3:8-10 . . The man and his wife hid from Yhvh God among the trees of
the garden. Yhvh God called out to the man and said to him: He replied: I
heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked,
so I hid.

Adam wasn't totally disrobed; only partially. But even that degree of undress
lacked adequate propriety in his own personal moral perception.

Gen 3:11 . .Then He asked: Who told you that you were naked?

In other words: who said undress is indecent? Where'd you get that idea?

Well; nobody had said undress is indecent, nor even suggested that it's
indecent. The concept of a dress code was unheard of at that time. No;
Adam just "felt" indecent. In other words; all of a sudden Adam's intuition
was telling him that his appearance was unacceptable.

Gen 3:22 . . And the Lord God said: Now that Man has become as one of
us, discerning good and evil.

The problem is; this newly acquired conscience of theirs wasn't from God, it
was obtained from the Serpent. As such, humanity's sense of right and
wrong is unreliable. Due to its satanic nature rather than truly divine, the
human moral compass easily deviates from true north by means of
emotional, social, cultural, political, and ethnical influences.

NOTE: Humanity was created in the image and likeness of its creator. But
humanity's construction stopped short of "one of us". i.e. an independent,
self-sustaining existence.

The Serpent promised Eve that she could improve her status and become
a deity by eating the forbidden fruit; which was true; she became a deity
alright, but she failed to become divine.

It's readily seen to be fairly easy to make one's self a deity; it's only
necessary to resist control, i.e. rebel against constituted authority; viz: go
your own way instead of complying with the laws, rules, and dictates of a
higher power; viz: anarchy. (cf. Judg 17:6 and Isa 53:6)
_
 
Jul 11, 2020
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The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them 2 Cor 5:21, and God doesnt impute sin to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So consequently wheres there no sin imputed theres no wrath ! The wrath of God is upon imputed sin Rom 1:18


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

But this ungodliness and unrighteousness of sin isnt imputed to the Elect 2 Cor 5:19

Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But none of these things listed in Vs 5 are imputed to the elect so no wrath ! 2 Cor 5:19

Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

But none of these things in Vs 5 are imputed to the chosen, so no wrath

The reason for this blessedness is because all those sins when it comes to Gods chosen, have already came under the wrath of God as they were charged to Christ 2 Cor 5:21. And that was before the chosen ones were born !
Your interpretation is way off the scripture!!
 
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God's GOODNESS is what leads men to repentance ... preach God's GOODNESS. What all happens who reject His goodness maybe so we are told to preach the GOOD news, not the bad news.
What you seem to call bad news is equally good news of the bible, holistically. It is your understanding that makes it bad.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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I encountered an mantra to live by that might have relevance in this particular instance, "Why do you apply normal rules to abnormal relationships?"
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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@brightfame52

How can you be "saved" if you never had anything to be saved from?
While you were addressing brightframe52, You need to read my post - post #125 - to get your answer in detail. He covered this in previous posts but I covered it again from a different point of view.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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I "get it" brightfame52. I do not believe in your version of who is the "Elect". You seem to believe God's Elect is mankind in general.

I believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ.
I could not pass this by!

Where do you get these ideas from? They are certainly not Biblical. So you believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ? Let's see how well that idea holds up in Scripture:

Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So you believe this means for Jesus Christ's sake those days will be shortened?

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. So if possible, even Jesus Christ would be lead astray.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. So how does your idea work out in this verse? Let's see, "And He shall send...", so Jesus Christ shall send His angels to gather together Himself from the four winds. God Forbid.

Finally, this verse shows just how ludicrous your statement is when you said: "I believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ."

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 
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Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That word propitiation hilasmos:

a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,

removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.nal
So therefore if we believe Christs death was truly a propitiation Godward, its impossible for anyone Christ died for, namely His Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to ever be under His Wrath, for that outright contradicts Christs propitiating death for them ! Remember Gods wrath is the punishment for our sins Eph 5:6; Col 3:6 !
The point is this. Even though the propitiation for sins is for the whole world, one is only saved when he believes., meaning that he only takes the advantage of the propitiation of sins at the time he believes. So, if before he believed, he was wallowing in sins or dining with the devil, he was subject to the wrath of God like other sinners. The fact that Jesus died for the whole world does not mean that the wrath of God ceases to descend on men who hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.

The elect /chosen for me are those who choose to worship God in Spirit and in truth.