Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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This is the passage used by Calvinists to support their theory of election for damnation (some call it double predestination, but it matters not):

ROMANS 9: GOD ALREADY KNOWS WHO WILL REPENT AND WHO WILL NOT
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [Note: Romans 11: 32 says that God will have mercy on all, which means that none are excluded from His grace]
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [Note: This means that salvation is not by human effort, but purely by the grace and mercy of God]
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [Note: the divine judgment of Pharaoh and the Egyptians became known throughout the ancient world]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [Note: God hardens hearts only after sinners repeatedly harden their hearts]
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[Note: God's foreknowledge
sees in advance those who will repent (honour) and those who will not (dishonour)]

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Paul uses this evil Pharaoh who opposed God and Moses as an example of a sinner who hardened his heart over and over again until God hardened his heart and he could not repent.

The narrative shows us that this evil man could have chosen to repent at any time while those plagues came upon Egypt (or even before), since God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek 18:23; 33:11). But every time Pharaoh had the opportunity, he refused to repent, and hardened his heart even more. God endured his lack of repentance with longsuffering (v 22) but eventually he became a "vessel unto dishonour" and "a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction" (eternal Hell).

But Calvinists turn this on its head and claim that just as God had already predestined Pharaoh for Hell, He predestines some sinners for Hell. Indeed the Westminster Confession of Faith says that God does this by an eternal decree, which means that there is no hope for some people,
Good commentary but I would like to add what the scripture saith "...because they sought it not by faith..." as an answer to v.18, the heart is hardened because someone is not seeking it by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Why would the faith of God that comes from knowing Christ cause a separation ?

The one mind of Christ is dual mindedness.? Perhaps you should listen to Christ and not Calvin .How did Calvin get in between he is dead .

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


The bible warns us of those who say we need a man to teach us. (1 John3:27-28) They are called antichrists.
A lot of my drawing to Christ happened apart from the Bible and everyone I knew who routinely read the Bible was a Calvinist. Because of this, I came to believe that the Calvinist viewpoint must be the one that had the strongest Biblical support.

At a young age I actually became afraid to read the Bible because I didn't like the God that Calvinists present because I saw Him as capricious and vile. I couldn't imagine how someone could worship a being that created living, breathing, thinking, feeling people for the pure purpose of eternal torment and get pleasure out of it.

I loved a lot of what I heard about Jesus from people who didn't seem to read the Bible as much, but because I was convinced of Calvin's read on the Bible I refused to read it. I was afraid I'd find something about Jesus I didn't like and have to give Him up, too.

Fast forward a few years and I became convicted I had to bend my will to God's as I was creating a god in my own image instead of worshiping the Creator. This led me to reluctantly accept Calvinistic beliefs and try to make them not seem horrible. The one I could not wrap my head around was that God hates unrepentant sinners.

He kept drawing me to love people who were absolutely no where near repentance. They were deep in sin and had no qualms about it. Yet my Calvinist friends in discussions kept coming back to how God hates the reprobates. This struggle made me very double minded. On the one hand I knew I couldn't hate anyone and remain in communion with God, yet I was routinely reminded that God hates people. I couldn't figure out how to separate the theology from personal behavior and eventually decided the Bible had to have been nothing more than men's speculations and the whole thing was a lie.

Looking at it that way I was able to read the Bible freely and I devoured it. I read books I wouldn't dare before like Leviticus and Romans(Romans was particularly frightening because of the weight it's given among Calvinists) and I came to discover what I had believed all along wasn't so. The Bible's God was the God I had known that loved people whether they rejected Him or not, who desired that all men be saved but allowed them to make decisions for themselves.

The more I read the Bible, the smaller Calvin got. The less authoritative his reads became and the more I desired to read about the God that I was discovering in its pages.
 

Just_Jo

Well-known member
May 29, 2020
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A lot of my drawing to Christ happened apart from the Bible and everyone I knew who routinely read the Bible was a Calvinist. Because of this, I came to believe that the Calvinist viewpoint must be the one that had the strongest Biblical support.

At a young age I actually became afraid to read the Bible because I didn't like the God that Calvinists present because I saw Him as capricious and vile. I couldn't imagine how someone could worship a being that created living, breathing, thinking, feeling people for the pure purpose of eternal torment and get pleasure out of it.

I loved a lot of what I heard about Jesus from people who didn't seem to read the Bible as much, but because I was convinced of Calvin's read on the Bible I refused to read it. I was afraid I'd find something about Jesus I didn't like and have to give Him up, too.

Fast forward a few years and I became convicted I had to bend my will to God's as I was creating a god in my own image instead of worshiping the Creator. This led me to reluctantly accept Calvinistic beliefs and try to make them not seem horrible. The one I could not wrap my head around was that God hates unrepentant sinners.

He kept drawing me to love people who were absolutely no where near repentance. They were deep in sin and had no qualms about it. Yet my Calvinist friends in discussions kept coming back to how God hates the reprobates. This struggle made me very double minded. On the one hand I knew I couldn't hate anyone and remain in communion with God, yet I was routinely reminded that God hates people. I couldn't figure out how to separate the theology from personal behavior and eventually decided the Bible had to have been nothing more than men's speculations and the whole thing was a lie.

Looking at it that way I was able to read the Bible freely and I devoured it. I read books I wouldn't dare before like Leviticus and Romans(Romans was particularly frightening because of the weight it's given among Calvinists) and I came to discover what I had believed all along wasn't so. The Bible's God was the God I had known that loved people whether they rejected Him or not, who desired that all men be saved but allowed them to make decisions for themselves.

The more I read the Bible, the smaller Calvin got. The less authoritative his reads became and the more I desired to read about the God that I was discovering in its pages.


Praise God!
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
And we see no one able to defend their false dogma... and we are supposed to belief their doctrine is Bibl
It sure looks like pride. It sure sounds like pride. If it looks like pride and talks like pride I guess it must be pride.

If I didn't have biblical grounds to stand on I wouldn't claim it as truth.

A strong word of caution that ground is not biblical ... so what are you really standing on?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The only thing it resonates with is The likes of Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, Ellen White, Jim Jones and a few others of like caliber and order!
Yes and the sad thing is Calvinism makes it a goal to infiltrate other churches.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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It sure looks like pride. It sure sounds like pride. If it looks like pride and talks like pride I guess it must be pride.

If I didn't have biblical grounds to stand on I wouldn't claim it as truth.
You, like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and others claim to have biblical grounds to stand on...make no mistake..You don't!

Skewed words, skewed context, denied truth, denied word definitions and the peddled error of a mid 1500's Catholic is all you have regardless of your ability to admit it......

My bible is clear...All of creation testifies, the invisible testifies, Christ paid the sin debt of the WORLD and GOD would have ALL MEN be saved and come to repentance....NOT JUST THE HYPER RELIGIOUS fraudulent Calvinists.....!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes and the sad thing is Calvinism makes it a goal to infiltrate other churches.
I know and think about that cultish behavior.......Jesus did not promote that crap.....it is one of the most hyper religious dividers this planet has ever seen....
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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It sure looks like pride. It sure sounds like pride. If it looks like pride and talks like pride I guess it must be pride.

If I didn't have biblical grounds to stand on I wouldn't claim it as truth.
Bingo! 👍
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Philosophy you say?

Calvinism creates a problem...... "no ability to believe" (respond to the Gospel message) and then creates the solution "effectual call."

Yet where did the apostles teach effectual call. NO Where.

Were they liars.... they could not be honest and preach ...."God will send His irresistible grace upon some of you and save some of you."

No you have to read that message into their words.

All of Calvinism is centered around the false philosophy of "effectual call".... all the rest of TULIP was developed to protect this false core tenet.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well this is the Lord Jesus speaking here.

So you can tell Him about His "false" philosophy.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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And we see no one able to defend their false dogma... and we are supposed to belief their doctrine is Bibl



A strong word of caution that ground is not biblical ... so what are you really standing on?
The ramblings of a mid 15th century Catholic.

Think about this truth.....How the CATHOLIC CHURCH claims to be "THE CHURCH" and promotes CHURCH SALVATION....and how CALVINISM PEDDLES the SAME drivel....WE ARE THE super duper special CHOSEN and the rest are DAMNED.....same thing the Catholic Church teaches....I.E. If you are OUTSIDE the Catholic Church.......SAME drivel....different package!
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The ramblings of a mid 15th century Catholic.

Think about this truth.....How the CATHOLIC CHURCH claims to be "THE CHURCH" and promotes CHURCH SALVATION....and hiw CALVINISM PEDDLES the SAME drivel....WE ARE THE super duper special CHOSEN and the rest are DAMNED.....same thing the Catholic Church teaches....I.E. If you are OUTSIDE the Catholic Church.......SAME drivel....different package!
Oh I know ... believe me... apple does not fall far from the tree.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well this is the Lord Jesus speaking here.

So you can tell Him about His "false" philosophy.
One line does not make a doctrine.... doctrine of predestination that is.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
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John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well this is the Lord Jesus speaking here.

So you can tell Him about His "false" philosophy.
So in order to come to God, the Father must draw the man first, correct?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

All kinds of men, right?😁
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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You, like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and others claim to have biblical grounds to stand on...make no mistake..You don't!

Skewed words, skewed context, denied truth, denied word definitions and the peddled error of a mid 1500's Catholic is all you have regardless of your ability to admit it......

My bible is clear...All of creation testifies, the invisible testifies, Christ paid the sin debt of the WORLD and GOD would have ALL MEN be saved and come to repentance....NOT JUST THE HYPER RELIGIOUS fraudulent Calvinists.....!
You keep saying that. But you don't ever prove it.

Why don't you start putting your money where your mouth is?

Show how each tenet of Calvinism is supposedly not biblical.

I'll wait.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well this is the Lord Jesus speaking here.

So you can tell Him about His "false" philosophy.
So what.....the Same God that said every man is without excuse and the same God that said he woyld have ALL MEN be saved.....and you are flat deceived if you think the word ALL only applies to those saved......
 
Dec 12, 2013
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So in order to come to God, the Father must draw the man first, correct?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hmmmmmmmm.....
Watch them twist that into ALL only meaning those that will be saved......Calvinism is worse than Mormonism.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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And we see no one able to defend their false dogma... and we are supposed to belief their doctrine is Bibl



A strong word of caution that ground is not biblical ... so what are you really standing on?
It is biblical. Or I would not be able to stand.

I can prove it is biblical. You just don't like to hear it.
 
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