Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#3,141
Jul 18, 2017
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#3,141
Guojing said:
The moment we reject universalism, this implies that all of us believe in some form of Limited Atonement.
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There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between Limited Atonement (which is patently false) and the Narrow Gate and the Narrow Way (which relatively few will find).

Limited Atonement means that Christ died ONLY for the sins of the so-called elect. But just one verse in Scripture totally refutes such nonsense:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

Now we must ask ourselves who revealed this spiritual truth to John the Baptizer? Jesus called him the greatest prophet, therefore it is God Himself that revealed this to John, and John declared this to Israel (and subsequently to the whole world).

There is no getting around the fact that "the world" here means the whole world of humanity -- the inhabitants of the world. And even John Calvin was compelled to interpret it in that way. Check his commentary if you do not believe me. But then Calvin turned around and corrupted this truth with his own theology.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,142
Jul 3, 2015
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#3,142
EleventhHour said:
What did He mean by this?
Do you notice how Calvinism will use one word to their advantage in one verse but then deny that same word in a different verse?
In this verse God is dragging people to Himself.... irresistible grace (effectual call)
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:44)
So what so we do here I wonder
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32

So then all men are irresistibly dragged into eternal life, which would make the Calvinist a universalist as well. :unsure:

It is a well known fact that Calvinism is very poor at context and correct exegesis... so perhaps you should go back to John 6:44 read it context and consider to whom He was speaking at that point in time.
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Oh, but you are overlooking that to a Calvinist, "all" only means the elect :unsure::geek:

Same for the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4, where God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#3,143
#3,143
Grandpa said:
You mean that God is Sovereign and that God chooses His People?

That is the evil error you are fighting against?

The whole bible is filled with this FACT.
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Can any man be saved?

If you cannot answer "yes" you are going against the plain clear teaching of scripture.

“I am come a light into the world, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH on me should not abide in darkness” (John 12:46).
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,144
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#3,144
Magenta said:
Oh, but you are overlooking that to a Calvinist, "all" only means the elect :unsure::geek:

Same for the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4, where God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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I'm not sure about the 2nd one in 1 Tim 2:4.

But the first one is obvious that only the saved are meant in that "all".
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#3,145
#3,145
Magenta said:
Oh, but you are overlooking that to a Calvinist, "all" only means the elect :unsure::geek:

Same for the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4, where God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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Yes I know and they would be wrong.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#3,146
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#3,146
Nehemiah6 said:
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between Limited Atonement (which is patently false) and the Narrow Gate and the Narrow Way (which relatively few will find).

Limited Atonement means that Christ died ONLY for the sins of the so-called elect. But just one verse in Scripture totally refutes such nonsense:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

Now we must ask ourselves who revealed this spiritual truth to John the Baptizer? Jesus called him the greatest prophet, therefore it is God Himself that revealed this to John, and John declared this to Israel (and subsequently to the whole world).

There is no getting around the fact that "the world" here means the whole world of humanity -- the inhabitants of the world. And even John Calvin was compelled to interpret it in that way. Check his commentary if you do not believe me. But then Calvin turned around and corrupted this truth with his own theology.
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But you also agree that those who don't accept the gift that Jesus provide for all, are not atoned right?

So you do subscribed to some form of Limited Atonement, just not how TULIP guys defined it.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,147
Jul 3, 2015
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#3,147
Grandpa said:
I'm not sure about the 2nd one in 1 Tim 2:4.

But the first one is obvious that only the saved are meant in that "all".
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Well, Calvinists have been known to say that if God desires it and it does not come to pass, He is/has been out willed or out maneuvered by man (<- paraphrase), making Him less than all powerful or a weak God Who cannot perform His will when up against the opposing will of man. Obviously such a God is not God and so desiring all to repent can therefore only apply to those whom He has appointed to repent, according to the Calvinist mindset/theology.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,148
Jun 24, 2011
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#3,148
EleventhHour said:
Can any man be saved?

If you cannot answer "yes" you are going against the plain clear teaching of scripture.

“I am come a light into the world, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH on me should not abide in darkness” (John 12:46).
Click to expand...
Men are not saved by their own will or their own understanding.

Men are saved by God.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,150
Jun 24, 2011
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#3,150
Magenta said:
Well, Calvinists have been known to say that if God desires it and it does not come to pass, He is/has been out willed or out maneuvered by man (<- paraphrase), making Him less than all powerful or a weak God Who cannot perform His will when up against the opposing will of man. Obviously such a God is not God and so desiring all to repent only applies to those whom He has appointed to repent, according to the Calvinist mindset/theology.
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Yes. That would be the logic behind thinking that.

It is quite strange for God to desire something and it not come to pass.
 
B

Bbrdrd

Banned
#3,151
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
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#3,151
Magenta said:
Well, Calvinists have been known to say that if God desires it and it does not come to pass, He is/has been out willed or out maneuvered by man (<- paraphrase), making Him less than all powerful or a weak God Who cannot perform His will when up against the opposing will of man. Obviously such a God is not God and so desiring all to repent can therefore only apply to those whom He has appointed to repent, according to the Calvinist mindset/theology.
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Grandpa said:
Yes. That would be the logic behind thinking that.

It is quite strange for God to desire something and it not come to pass.
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If everything God desires comes to pass, God desired sin. Congrats on making God the author of sin.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,152
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#3,152
Nehemiah6 said:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

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This is talking about everyone in the world who comes to Christ, past, present and future.

It is not saying that the Lamb of God has erased all the sins of all the people who will ever live.


To make it say the 2nd is dishonest.



Think about the consequences of what you are trying to say here. Christ has taken away the sins of EVERYONE who ever lived and who will ever live. That means everyone who has ever lived and will ever live is Righteous before God without having to come to Christ or receive ANYTHING else from God.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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#3,153
Jul 3, 2015
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#3,153
Bbrdrd said:
If everything God desires comes to pass, God desired sin. Congrats on making God the author of sin.
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God making allowance for something does not equate to God desiring it or making it happen.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#3,155
#3,155
Grandpa said:
I'm not sure about the 2nd one in 1 Tim 2:4.

But the first one is obvious that only the saved are meant in that "all".
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John 12:32

When Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, anyone who merely looked at it would be saved from the death sting of the fiery serpents. Yet many died.

So they had a choice and "all' cannot be referring to the saved/elect.
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#3,156
Apr 2, 2020
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#3,156
Grandpa said:
God allowing things and God desiring things are two entirely different things.
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So then God could desire all men be saved, but allow them to perish?

If men have free will, it makes sense to say God allows things. But what would God allowing things look like in a world where men's decisions are eternally set by God?
 
B

Bbrdrd

Banned
#3,157
Apr 2, 2020
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#3,157
Magenta said:
God making allowance for something does not equate to God desiring it or making it happen.
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I quoted you not to say you made God the author of sin, but when what you said is coupled with Calvinistic statements God becomes the author of sin.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,158
Jul 3, 2015
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#3,158
Bbrdrd said:
I quoted you not to say you made God the author of sin, but when what you said is coupled with Calvinistic statements God becomes the author of sin.
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Oh, I see... yes, Calvinists do claim that anything that comes to pass has been ordained by God, but in their theology does that mean He made it happen? I do get that impression at times, which then certainly makes me wonder a lot of things, you know, like, if God has caused everything that is to be the way it is, then He chose and caused some to oppose Calvinism also :)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#3,159
#3,159
Grandpa said:
Men are not saved by their own will or their own understanding.

Men are saved by God.
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1 Timothy 4:9-10
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”

Who actually will be saved? “THOSE THAT BELIEVE.” They must understand something to believe.

Not only NT but in the OT as well.
 
B

Bbrdrd

Banned
#3,160
Apr 2, 2020
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#3,160
Magenta said:
Oh, I see... yes, Calvinists do claim that anything that comes to pass has been ordained by God, but in their theology does that mean He made it happen? I do get that impression at times, which then certainly makes me wonder a lot of things, you know, like, if God has caused everything that is to be the way it is, then He chose and caused some to oppose Calvinism also :)
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Yes it is quite strange when the idea of God's absolute sovereignty is considered. Though it's not entirely the fault of the Calvinists, it's simply what happens when human systems of theology are built. There's many tensions in the Bible, one of them being man's free will and God's sovereignty, that the Bible never fully explains. To break on either side and make it absolute is bound to lead to all sorts of confusions.

Man is not totally free from God's sovereignty over His will, but God chooses to limit His sovereignty so man's choices are genuinely his.
 
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