is it possible for a born again christain to lose their salvation...... hebrews ch 10 v 26.. for if we sin wilfully. after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrafice for sins. but a certain fearfull looking for of judgement and fiery indignation wich shall devour the adversaries, he that despised moses law died without mercy. under two or three witnesses ..of how much more sober punishment suppose you shall be thought worthy who has trodden under foot. the son of god and has counted the blood of the covenant were with [he was sanctified] an unholy thing and has done despite to the spirit of grace..verse. [38 v 39] now the just shall live by faith but if anyman draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him. but we are not of them who draw back unto perdition but of them who believe to the saving of the soul. the scripture here talks of a believer who has known the truth rejected the son of god after being washed in the blood of jesus christ and been sanctified i believe even though a christain has known the truth of the gospel and recieved the spirit of grace.experienced the grace of god . been washed in the lords blood.if they turn from the lord and draw back into wilfully sinning and dont repent . they will lose their salvation.. one more scripture here the lord is speaking to the church not the world he says clearly he can remove someones name from the book of life [revelation ch 3 v 5] he that overcomes the same shall be clothed in white raiment and i will not blot out....remove... his name out of the book of life but will confess his name before my father and before his angels i believe that a christain can lose their salvation through hardening their heart and by rejecting the lord.............
can a christiain lose their salvation
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Jesus said
My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand John10:27&28
I have seen this debate on other websites. Personally I would be inclined to agree with you Ian. But someone said in a debate on this. 'No sincere conversion is lost.' If we take all scripture on this subject, that statement does make some sense to me.
My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand John10:27&28
I have seen this debate on other websites. Personally I would be inclined to agree with you Ian. But someone said in a debate on this. 'No sincere conversion is lost.' If we take all scripture on this subject, that statement does make some sense to me.
its true no man can snatch us from the lords hand there is nothing anyone man can do to take away your salvation thats right.... but if a believer of their own free will turns from the lord. and willfully contunues to sin and deosnt repent will he go to heaven thats not an issue of man taking them out of the lords hand but of the person turning from the lord we. must individually work out our salvation with fear and trembing and no one can do that for us...what jesus was refering to in jhon ch 10 v27 v 28 wasnt about a believer losing their salvation but of another taking our SALVATION from us HERE ARE SOME SOBERING SCRIPTURES galatians ch 5 v 19 v 20 v 21,, now the works of the flesh are manifest, wich are these adultery, fornication , uncleaness lascivousness idolatry, witchcraft, hatred variance emultions wrath strife seditions heresies, envyings, murders,drunkeness,revellings and such like of the wich i tell you before as i have told you in time past that they wich do such things,,shall not inherit the kingdom of god..we are saved by the grace of god but grace isnt AN EXCUSE TO LIVE IN SIN and live in spiritual darkness,,, titus ch 2 v 11 v 12 for the grace of god that brings salvation HAS APPEARED UNTO ALL MEN TEACHING US THAT ,, DENYINGUNGODLINESS AND WORDLY LUSTS WE SHOULD LIVE SOBERLY AND RIGHTEOUSLY AND GODLY IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.
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Firstly I completely agree, grace is not a licence to sin. It is grace that trimphs over sin in us. No true born again Christian could use grace as a licence to sin. Some people do use this freedom in Christ as an excuse to sin, they did in Biblical times(Jude4) but they were not sincere. Anyone truly living in grace will see dramatic changes in their lives.
Without going too far off a tangent here. Paul and David both said the Lord can keep us from falling. I personally can only look at it from the point of view that it is God's grace that keeps me faithful to him, not me in myself.
No-one can work out our salvation for us, agreed, it is only Christ through the Holy Spirtit that can do that. For us the goal is to become less and less and for Christ and the Holy Spirit to become greater in us. I believe we ourselves can only get in the way of God working in us. We in ourselves are nothing.
To get more back to the original question
If we died with him
we will also live with him
If we endure
we will reign with him
If we disown him
He will also disown us
If we are faithless
He will remain faithful
For he cannot disown his own
2Tim2:11-13
When I became a Christian I asked God to keep me and never let me go. I knew my natural sinful state. I knew thatr left up to me I could never go to Heaven. There is nothing about me personally that I can say has achieved anything where my Christian life is concerned, it has all been God's kindness and mercy to me. So it is God who has kept me with him, I know that, so I understand Jesus words.
I will go to Heaven because Jesus kept me. Yes I have at times strayed badly, but it is Jesus through the Spirit who ensured I came back.
So we work out our salvation by asking Jesus through the spirit that he becomes greater in us and we become less and us.
By the way. There's no need to use capitals, my eyesight is reasonably good
Without going too far off a tangent here. Paul and David both said the Lord can keep us from falling. I personally can only look at it from the point of view that it is God's grace that keeps me faithful to him, not me in myself.
No-one can work out our salvation for us, agreed, it is only Christ through the Holy Spirtit that can do that. For us the goal is to become less and less and for Christ and the Holy Spirit to become greater in us. I believe we ourselves can only get in the way of God working in us. We in ourselves are nothing.
To get more back to the original question
If we died with him
we will also live with him
If we endure
we will reign with him
If we disown him
He will also disown us
If we are faithless
He will remain faithful
For he cannot disown his own
2Tim2:11-13
When I became a Christian I asked God to keep me and never let me go. I knew my natural sinful state. I knew thatr left up to me I could never go to Heaven. There is nothing about me personally that I can say has achieved anything where my Christian life is concerned, it has all been God's kindness and mercy to me. So it is God who has kept me with him, I know that, so I understand Jesus words.
I will go to Heaven because Jesus kept me. Yes I have at times strayed badly, but it is Jesus through the Spirit who ensured I came back.
So we work out our salvation by asking Jesus through the spirit that he becomes greater in us and we become less and us.
By the way. There's no need to use capitals, my eyesight is reasonably good
If I am wrong I apologise, but as yoiu used capitals to say Grace isn't an excuse to sin, I wonder if you may believe with my views I think like that. Nothing could be further from the truth, I assure you. I don't mean you but many Christians do not in their hearts truly understand grace.
I go on a uk Christian site. There is a marvelous spirit filled Christian woman omn there. She understands grace. She told us that it was only when she stopped worrying about her sin that she started to sin less and less. That is living in true grace.
To really understand it, it helps if you have been crtushed by guilt wracked with depression at feeling you are not 'good enough ' for God, because of your sinful state. The Apostle Paul came to this state. When I was a teenager I was suicidal and wracked with guilt due to an inability to live as God wanted me to. But I know he allowed that now so the I could appreciate true grace.
I and others have been told by Christians we will go to hell for what we say. Personally I do not mind for myself, but it is sad to hear it said.
Jesus was hounded as a law breaker, by religious people, and it was religious people who had him crucified
Steven the first Christian martyr was arrested, dragged before the Sanhedrin and stoned to death, by religious people. One of the reasons he was arrested was for ignoring the law.
The Apostle Paul said there is an offence of the cross, circumcision(ie law) Fore this he too was hounded and arrested, by religious people.
Nothing has changed in two thousand years, human nature will never change.
Some don't understand true grace, and some don't want to.
Why don't they want to? Because despite all the words they say, they have to believe they have done something to earn their salvation. They want some of the credit. The Pharisees were a proud people, they could not accept the grace that was on offer.
I know from the bottom ofr my heart I can boast of nothing except the mercy and love of a God I could never deserve. And no law keeping or goodness on my part will get me into Heaven. And I will not get there because through my own effort I was faithful to God. It has all been him, despite my foolish efforts to resist Him. There is only one thing left to say
To God be alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the glory
I go on a uk Christian site. There is a marvelous spirit filled Christian woman omn there. She understands grace. She told us that it was only when she stopped worrying about her sin that she started to sin less and less. That is living in true grace.
To really understand it, it helps if you have been crtushed by guilt wracked with depression at feeling you are not 'good enough ' for God, because of your sinful state. The Apostle Paul came to this state. When I was a teenager I was suicidal and wracked with guilt due to an inability to live as God wanted me to. But I know he allowed that now so the I could appreciate true grace.
I and others have been told by Christians we will go to hell for what we say. Personally I do not mind for myself, but it is sad to hear it said.
Jesus was hounded as a law breaker, by religious people, and it was religious people who had him crucified
Steven the first Christian martyr was arrested, dragged before the Sanhedrin and stoned to death, by religious people. One of the reasons he was arrested was for ignoring the law.
The Apostle Paul said there is an offence of the cross, circumcision(ie law) Fore this he too was hounded and arrested, by religious people.
Nothing has changed in two thousand years, human nature will never change.
Some don't understand true grace, and some don't want to.
Why don't they want to? Because despite all the words they say, they have to believe they have done something to earn their salvation. They want some of the credit. The Pharisees were a proud people, they could not accept the grace that was on offer.
I know from the bottom ofr my heart I can boast of nothing except the mercy and love of a God I could never deserve. And no law keeping or goodness on my part will get me into Heaven. And I will not get there because through my own effort I was faithful to God. It has all been him, despite my foolish efforts to resist Him. There is only one thing left to say
To God be alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the glory
Praise God's Sovereign and Holy name. again another well written post.
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (ESV)
Soli Deo Gloria
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (ESV)
Soli Deo Gloria
in refrence to making grace an justification for sin .. paul said. in romans ch 7 v 17, what then shall we sin . because we are not under law but under grace god forbid..then in verse 22 paul said but now being made free from sin and become servants to god you have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life..i agree that we are saved by gods grace and can only please god by walking in the new nature and manifesting the fruits of the holy spirit we all need grace and god gives us grace when we humble ourselves we cannot do this without the holy spirit,,,......... what paul was teaching in romans ch 6 was that even though we as christains are saved by grace we still must yeild our bodies to live in holiness .sin should not reign in a christains life is what paul is teaching here..we are saved by gods grace and can overcome and crucify our flesh also by his grace my point about can someone lose their salavtion is i believe they can if they allow sin to reign in them and they become its servant the end of that way of living is death....if we confess our sins as believers then the word says in [1 jhon ch 1v 9 ] jesus will cleanse us from all our unrighteousness. but if we have recieved salvation and remain in darkness and turn from the lord and dont repent then we shall not inherit the kingdom of god ...alan
MMmmmmmmmm if you remain in darkness, I would strongly question if indeed they are Christians and by that I dont mean someone who has uttered the sinners prayer in a half heartened attempt to appease themselves as so often happens. but someone who is 'born of God', 'reconciled to Him and through Him' as we say we all sin and we will reach different levels of Sanctification, but those whose lives never really change where probably never really saved.
There have been many in the church who have served it well for maybe 30-40 years, done good things, good to their families etc etc, yet in their own testominies will tell you where never saved, they new that of course when they actually where born of the Spirit.
There have been many in the church who have served it well for maybe 30-40 years, done good things, good to their families etc etc, yet in their own testominies will tell you where never saved, they new that of course when they actually where born of the Spirit.
I absolutely agree, it is because we are under grace that we are free from sin being in control of our lives. If we fully live in the truth of grace there must be far less reason for sinning than if we don't
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14
The power of sin has been broken in our lives, because the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
But I passionately believe that all Christians must understand that iti s not by us making in our own effort a huge attempt to live a Godly life, it is by living in grace, by faith, not being under law that will achieve the Godly life in us. Paul said we get by faith everything we tried to get by obeying God's laws(being good enough)
It is a life of faith that strips us of pride and gives us true humility, because we know the victory in us is not of ourselves but of AJesus who died for our sins to give us this freedom and victory in him.
I think the interesting thing about losing our salvation is where Paul wrote. If we are faithless he will remain faithful, it is when we disown him that he disowns us.
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14
The power of sin has been broken in our lives, because the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
But I passionately believe that all Christians must understand that iti s not by us making in our own effort a huge attempt to live a Godly life, it is by living in grace, by faith, not being under law that will achieve the Godly life in us. Paul said we get by faith everything we tried to get by obeying God's laws(being good enough)
It is a life of faith that strips us of pride and gives us true humility, because we know the victory in us is not of ourselves but of AJesus who died for our sins to give us this freedom and victory in him.
I think the interesting thing about losing our salvation is where Paul wrote. If we are faithless he will remain faithful, it is when we disown him that he disowns us.
i believe when we were born again we were geiven a new nature christs righteousness was given to us. we arent saved by our own righteousness . our own righteousness is as filthy rags.because christ is in us our spirit is alive because of righteousness.. romans ch 8 v 10...we could never be good enough to go to heaven by obeying all gods laws so the lord gave us his righteousness.and it is only by the leading and power of the holy spirit we can put to death our carnal nature.. v 13 v 14 , but then in 2 corinthians,, ch 7 v 1 paul told the church let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of god.. as christains we are not to let sin reign in us but walk in holiness some say but i cant ..we can.. through the holy spirit... but im not perfect... another says but paul says perfect holiness in the fear of god will that mean im perfect no we can never be sinless we will have our flesh old nature with us until we recieve our glorified bodies but we are called to live in holiness as christains. ....... any way im off the subject totally now my question can a christain lose their salvation and the biblical answer is yes... we must work out our own savation with fear and trembling.....
there are people who get saved and turn from the lord and then walk in darkness after being converted that was what i was refering to you know a backslider...............who never slides back yes they were really born again but crossed a line and continued to live in sin and their consience was defiled and their was never any more repantance they did not confess their sin and recieve cleansing for that christain who dies unrepentant he will not go to heaven....
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I understand fully what you are saying. To me there is a xgreat difference between the sin someone carries into their Christian life from their former life, and sin committed willfully deliberately when we have been set free of a sin.
When someone becomes a Christian they often have deep rooted sins still in them. Some sins will immediately go, others wont. But if the person is sincere, and truly loves God, there job at this point is to cling to Jesus and trust him, they must not condemn themselves for their sin, or try themselves to rid themselves of it. They are not committing willful, deliberate sin, they don't want the sin if they are sincere. But if they try and rid themselvews of it to be acceptable as a Christian they will simply prove as Paul said they are a lawbreaker. And quite innocently they are at this point ignoring the cross.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness coulde be gained through the law Christ died for nothing. Gal2:21
Spurgeon said Satan will fill the new believers head with impure thoughts and much else in aqn effort to turn him away from looking to Christ. He musn't Faith in Christ is his victory.
Paul himself had this problem, he found himself doing what he did not want to do, he said in those circumstances sin still had him in it's grasp.
Oncewc someone by faith in Christ has been freed from these deep rooted sins, then they are ready to progress in the Christian life. They are then ready to go onto solid food as Paul said, and far more will be expected of them, they have now been freed.
But for the new Christian they must be taught as Spurgeon said to cling to Christ like a limpet to a rock. He said they are not expected to defeat the sin still in their lives. He said Christ did not die just to justify us, but also to sanctify us.
Christ died for us while we were dead in our sins, and without strength. It is tragic when new Christians in this state are told how good lives they must live or be in danger of losing their salvation. It sounds correct. But so often people give up with God at this point, because they believe it is down to them to change themselves. I really hope this makes sense to you, I do believe it is Biblically sound(I would say that wouldn't I lol)
When someone becomes a Christian they often have deep rooted sins still in them. Some sins will immediately go, others wont. But if the person is sincere, and truly loves God, there job at this point is to cling to Jesus and trust him, they must not condemn themselves for their sin, or try themselves to rid themselves of it. They are not committing willful, deliberate sin, they don't want the sin if they are sincere. But if they try and rid themselvews of it to be acceptable as a Christian they will simply prove as Paul said they are a lawbreaker. And quite innocently they are at this point ignoring the cross.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness coulde be gained through the law Christ died for nothing. Gal2:21
Spurgeon said Satan will fill the new believers head with impure thoughts and much else in aqn effort to turn him away from looking to Christ. He musn't Faith in Christ is his victory.
Paul himself had this problem, he found himself doing what he did not want to do, he said in those circumstances sin still had him in it's grasp.
Oncewc someone by faith in Christ has been freed from these deep rooted sins, then they are ready to progress in the Christian life. They are then ready to go onto solid food as Paul said, and far more will be expected of them, they have now been freed.
But for the new Christian they must be taught as Spurgeon said to cling to Christ like a limpet to a rock. He said they are not expected to defeat the sin still in their lives. He said Christ did not die just to justify us, but also to sanctify us.
Christ died for us while we were dead in our sins, and without strength. It is tragic when new Christians in this state are told how good lives they must live or be in danger of losing their salvation. It sounds correct. But so often people give up with God at this point, because they believe it is down to them to change themselves. I really hope this makes sense to you, I do believe it is Biblically sound(I would say that wouldn't I lol)
I disagree with you seer. where they really born again.
I truly believe once saved always saved. I do know that we will have our times in the wilderness (and thats from personal experience), maybe not us all, but most will, but if you are saved, truly born again, God will punish you as His child and bring you back into the pen. but you never have lost your position as a child of God.
I believe as Scripture says, if you are 'caused' to a new birth by God you are His wholly and assured and are assured of the new life in Christ for eternity.
Ephesians 1:13 infact the hole section is very plain in this point. vv 3-14
