can a christiain lose their salvation

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L

livingbygrace

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Dec 19, 2009
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phil36 said:
All I can say is Dutch, that if you belive you can lose your salvation that is up to you..

I like how you quote professors as if that proves a point.. I could list all day long from, Scholars and Bible dictionary's etc, on once saved always saved.

However, as I say, I am secure in the knowledge that Christ will not let his true sheep be lost again after being found. :)

In Love

Phil
Click to expand...
Actually Spurgeon said that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It wouldn't be very strong if we were part of it.

And if I can have a part in keeping my salvation God cannot have all the Glory, and he demands it
 
D

Dutch41

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#82
#82
Thaddaeus said:
so what about when Jesus said that your Father knows what you need even before you ask for it
Click to expand...
phil36 said:
All I can say is Dutch, that if you belive you can lose your salvation that is up to you..

I like how you quote professors as if that proves a point.. I could list all day long from, Scholars and Bible dictionary's etc, on once saved always saved.

However, as I say, I am secure in the knowledge that Christ will not let his true sheep be lost again after being found. :)

In Love

Phil
Click to expand...

Well I know, that there are a lot of Scholars and Prof. who think different about it as I am. But the same, there are more Scholars and Prof.. who are thinking the same as I am. But that is not the point..

(I don't think you can find a list of encyclopedia who discripe the different of the book of live.)

I know it is up to our self.. like you said it to me, it is the same for you.. But when you told some about the grace.. of the Lord.. I think you mislead the person... for a bit. Because it is a part of it. And in my idea we have and discus it on a topic.. here.
 
phil36

phil36

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#84
livingbygrace said:
Actually Spurgeon said that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It wouldn't be very strong if we were part of it.

And if I can have a part in keeping my salvation God cannot have all the Glory, and he demands it
Click to expand...

I think you have misread my post livingbygrace.

God has all the glory in my salvation. for if it where not for God's glorious grace, I would not be His child.

My heart was changed by God, I exercised Faith (just as Abraham), and God keeps me.

You are saved into the Kingdom of God, for eternity and not by your will, the will of men or anything else except God's grace. Do you think God's grace and salvation relies on weak and wicked man? certainly not.

Phil
 
phil36

phil36

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#85
Dutch41 said:
gave the explanation in the posting Phil :)
Click to expand...

These are part of the the 'Ethics' of what we are to live by, now, if someone is living By the power of the Spirit, will they not have their conscience pricked until repentance, we all struggle with forgiving people , but I know through my own experience, that I have just only forgiven someone from 15 years ago. now you may say wow that is a long time, and you would be right, and here is something more, I have been saved by God's glorious grace for coming onto nearly 7 years (well 7, at the end of this year) and all through t hat time I never forgave that person, I have now, only by God's grace and the Spirit in me convicting me all the time.

So by your argument you would say I was never born again for I did not forgive a the Father forgives?

put this another way, sanctification is a life long process. you have put forth only one point of the 'Ethics' can we live up to them?

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that does not negate repentance, and does not give license to sin either, yet the power of the Spirit in you, will bear fruit.

If you do not bear fruit then I would say you were never born again in the first place. As I say before there are many who fool themselves into thinking they are.

We have Freedom in Christ, anyhow you just need to read Paul's polemic in Galatians for that.

in love

Phil
 
L

livingbygrace

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#86
Dec 19, 2009
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phil36 said:
These are part of the the 'Ethics' of what we are to live by, now, if someone is living By the power of the Spirit, will they not have their conscience pricked until repentance, we all struggle with forgiving people , but I know through my own experience, that I have just only forgiven someone from 15 years ago. now you may say wow that is a long time, and you would be right, and here is something more, I have been saved by God's glorious grace for coming onto nearly 7 years (well 7, at the end of this year) and all through t hat time I never forgave that person, I have now, only by God's grace and the Spirit in me convicting me all the time.

So by your argument you would say I was never born again for I did not forgive a the Father forgives?

I would say praise God for honesty. This comment will far more uplift people than when we proclaim the literal scripture and demand that others immediately live according to it.
It takes time. Christ's disciples and the Apostle Paul did not become overnight the people we perceive them as being. And from reading their letters they did not profess perfection, rather proclaimed a message of grace for sinners
Click to expand...
 
phil36

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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#87
Dutch41 said:
Well I know, that there are a lot of Scholars and Prof. who think different about it as I am. But the same, there are more Scholars and Prof.. who are thinking the same as I am. But that is not the point..

(I don't think you can find a list of encyclopedia who discripe the different of the book of live.)

I know it is up to our self.. like you said it to me, it is the same for you.. But when you told some about the grace.. of the Lord.. I think you mislead the person... for a bit. Because it is a part of it. And in my idea we have and discus it on a topic.. here.
Click to expand...

I have not mislead anyone.. I have an assurance as you do, as all genuine believers do of Eternal life, through the Glorious work of Christ on the cross, through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

IF you could lose your salvation you have no assurance.. none whatsoever.
 
D

Dutch41

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#88
#88
phil36 said:
These are part of the the 'Ethics' of what we are to live by, now, if someone is living By the power of the Spirit, will they not have their conscience pricked until repentance, we all struggle with forgiving people , but I know through my own experience, that I have just only forgiven someone from 15 years ago. now you may say wow that is a long time, and you would be right, and here is something more, I have been saved by God's glorious grace for coming onto nearly 7 years (well 7, at the end of this year) and all through t hat time I never forgave that person, I have now, only by God's grace and the Spirit in me convicting me all the time.

So by your argument you would say I was never born again for I did not forgive a the Father forgives?

put this another way, sanctification is a life long process. you have put forth only one point of the 'Ethics' can we live up to them?

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that does not negate repentance, and does not give license to sin either, yet the power of the Spirit in you, will bear fruit.

If you do not bear fruit then I would say you were never born again in the first place. As I say before there are many who fool themselves into thinking they are.

We have Freedom in Christ, anyhow you just need to read Paul's polemic in Galatians for that.

in love

Phil
Click to expand...

No Phil, that is not exactly what it said. Okee.. I will try to explain... what the verse said..
There can something happen in our lives.. your child that got an accident by a drunken driver.. And we can't forgive the offender. But the Lord is asking that from us.

And if we can't by our self.. we can bring that to the Lord. That is the order. But sometimes people don't wanted to forgive the person.. It happen.... because they harm us in such way... that we hate the person.. and they kept the pain in their hart, so they got finally a bitter hart.
 
phil36

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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#89
Dutch41 said:
No Phil, that is not exactly what it said. Okee.. I will try to explain... what the verse said..
There can something happen in our lives.. your child that got an accident by a drunken driver.. And we can't forgive the offender. But the Lord is asking that from us.

And if we can't by our self.. we can bring that to the Lord. That is the order. But sometimes people don't wanted to forgive the person.. It happen.... because they harm us in such way... that we hate the person.. and they kept the pain in their hart, so they got finally a bitter hart.
Click to expand...

You have just bascially agreed with me.....

If you have a bitter heart and you truly are a child of God, God will Through the Holy Spirit work on that, as I said I hated someone for 15 years but when God saved me from Darkness, he slowly worked on that hatred I had.. it took a few years but God did it... then I repented of it..

You see, if you are truly a child of God, truly Born of the Spirit then God will act in you..

the case you provide above would be someone who was not really saved in the first place. as God will bring about your full salvation, from the time you where 'Born again' till the time you are 'Glorified.

That is the difference Dutch. sanctification is a process, it is not overnight.

As I say, We who are born again, have an assurance of joy in the eternal kingdom God has born us into.

Praise God.
 
phil36

phil36

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#90
Once Saved, Always Saved – The New Creation
Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8).

A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.

A nice article I picked up, along the way... It is wonderful to have assurance, that God loved us so much that he sent His son to die for us, he rose again so that those who truly believe have eternal secure salvation :)


In Love

Phil
 
D

Dutch41

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#91
#91
phil36 said:
You have just bascially agreed with me.....

If you have a bitter heart and you truly are a child of God, God will Through the Holy Spirit work on that, as I said I hated someone for 15 years but when God saved me from Darkness, he slowly worked on that hatred I had.. it took a few years but God did it... then I repented of it..

You see, if you are truly a child of God, truly Born of the Spirit then God will act in you..

the case you provide above would be someone who was not really saved in the first place. as God will bring about your full salvation, from the time you where 'Born again' till the time you are 'Glorified.

That is the difference Dutch. sanctification is a process, it is not overnight.

As I say, We who are born again, have an assurance of joy in the eternal kingdom God has born us into.

Praise God.
Click to expand...

by this, you said: Well Lord.. what you had written for example in the book of Rev. I don't agree with it. Because you can't blot out people of the book of Life. Or what you say is: Well Lord, what you write in Math 6:14-15 I don't agree with you.. because... this warning is only for not saved people...

The Spirit is living in a person, but He will not force Him self to the person.. the person got a change to listen to it or ignore Him.
 
L

livingbygrace

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Dec 19, 2009
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#92
phil36 said:
Once Saved, Always Saved – The New Creation
Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8).

A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.

A nice article I picked up, along the way... It is wonderful to have assurance, that God loved us so much that he sent His son to die for us, he rose again so that those who truly believe have eternal secure salvation :)


In Love

Phil
Click to expand...
Great post Phil and very true
 
M

mpaper345

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#93
Feb 9, 2010
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#93
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity(2 Timothy 2:19).

Everyone that calls Jesus their savior must depart from all sin.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin(James 4:17).

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries(Hebrews 10:26-27).

If you sin,repent and get right back in the Spirit,but if you live in sin and do not repent of it like fornication then there is no sacrifice to take that sin away and you will lose your salvation.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway(1 Corinthians 9:27).

Paul said if he did not abstain from sin he would be a castaway which means lose his salvation.

The truth is once saved always saved is true if someone allows the Spirit to lead them and abstain from all sin but if a person lives in sin then they will be a castaway and lose their salvation.

Repenting of your sins means being sorry for committing the sin and not doing it again,turning away from sin.
Repenting of your sins does not mean say you are sorry for the sin and then doing it again and then say you are sorry for the sin and then doing it again.

1.You are not truly sorry for the sin because you keep doing it.
2.You are not truly repenting of the sin because you keep doing it.

Matt
 
D

Dutch41

Guest
#94
#94
phil36 said:
You have just bascially agreed with me.....

If you have a bitter heart and you truly are a child of God, God will Through the Holy Spirit work on that, as I said I hated someone for 15 years but when God saved me from Darkness, he slowly worked on that hatred I had.. it took a few years but God did it... then I repented of it..

You see, if you are truly a child of God, truly Born of the Spirit then God will act in you..

the case you provide above would be someone who was not really saved in the first place. as God will bring about your full salvation, from the time you where 'Born again' till the time you are 'Glorified.

That is the difference Dutch. sanctification is a process, it is not overnight.

As I say, We who are born again, have an assurance of joy in the eternal kingdom God has born us into.

Praise God.
Click to expand...
If I miss understand you... I hope you will make it clear to me.

You said: when you are a true Christian, there can't be bitterness born in your hart.

This Scripture said the opposite of what you say:

Hebr 3:7 vv
Therefore as the Holy Spirit saith: "Today if ye will hear His voice,

12-13Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin

14 For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the confidence we had in the beginning steadfast unto the end,


So when you study this text very well.. you can't deny that the writer is talking to brothers that the writer talked to Messianic Jews that doesn't make a different, .. (Or Christians) Are they saved? there is not written, that they aren't true Christians.. But it is a warning to all. Or actually the writer wanted to warn the listeners (if it is a preach)

By using the words.. that the Holy Spirit this said: If you hear His voice. I think we agree that here with His,... is meant the Lord. And if you wanted to know.. who can hear His voice? Who recognise His voice? Well that is only the Christians. The sheep hear is voice.

And, vs 8 said actually... Don't hard your hart.. So it seems it is possible for a Christian to harden his hart after he became a Christian.

And than the warning is at vs12.. that we have to look to our brothers... Again here is not spoken to not truly Christians.. But to Christians.. because your heart can change by falling of the Living God.

And than vs 14: We have a part at Christ IF we hold the confidence we had in the beginning steadfast unto the end.
 
phil36

phil36

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#95
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#95
Dutch41 said:
If I miss understand you... I hope you will make it clear to me.

You said: when you are a true Christian, there can't be bitterness born in your hart. You have misread my post

This Scripture said the opposite of what you say: This is incorrect read below.



Hebr 3:7 vv
Therefore as the Holy Spirit saith: "Today if ye will hear His voice,

Read the urgency, today if you will here his voice, that mean today, not tomorrow, someone who is Born Again has already heard His voice. This is to people who hear the gospel yet do not act upon it. the Israelite's, saw great miracles coming from Egypt to the wilderness yet, did not fully believe they needed more proofs, more miracles.

Just as none believers today, they here the great truth of the gospel, they may even agree yet do not act. Now I say this because I am not sure why you have only quoted part of this great section. you just quote 3:7 then skip till v12-13, this is one whole section and a quote from Psalm 95:7-11, this reinforces the model of do not harden you hearts to the gospel of God's love.

12-13Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin

This is based on an illustration of Isreals unbelief in the wilderness.. (read the whole text) an appeal is made to the readers of Hebrews not to follow this example. It is a warning not to reject the truth that is known. the judgement feel upon those who rejected God's word in the wilderness through Moses, and the warning here is rejecting God's word through Christ (if your read Hebrews as a whole you will see this very easily)

Another example for you Dutch, and this may be an oversite on your part, is that of the word 'Brothers' or 'brethren' this is not Christians as in Hebrews 3:1 where it says Holy Brothers/brethren, it refers to racial brothers, unbelieving brothers,if you have read the book of acts you will have known this.

As I said above you missed a whole chunk of this section of Scripture to try and prove your point. V12-13 read in context with the verse preceding it point to an unbelief not in the believer but the unbeliever. exhort each other daily, to the goodness of Gods grace. while it is called today, the reason being you might not have a chance tomorrow to act on the knowledge you have of the gospel, the more you don't act the more you harden your heart.



14 For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the confidence we had in the beginning steadfast unto the end,

Verse 14 proves my point, if truly a christian, truly born again you will be steadfast in Christ... John 8:31.


So when you study this text very well.. you can't deny that the writer is talking to brothers that the writer talked to Messianic Jews that doesn't make a different, .. (Or Christians) Are they saved? there is not written, that they aren't true Christians.. But it is a warning to all. Or actually the writer wanted to warn the listeners (if it is a preach)

I have read and studied it, and you are wrong. you have taken a couple of verses in an important block and tried to make them say what you want.


By using the words.. that the Holy Spirit this said: If you hear His voice. I think we agree that here with His,... is meant the Lord. And if you wanted to know.. who can hear His voice? Who recognise His voice? Well that is only the Christians. The sheep hear is voice.

Yes the sheep hear His voice, but in the first instance the writer of Hebrews is citing Psalm 95 :7-11, tthis shows that all scripture is God breathed. for it is this Psalm the writer is citing.

And, vs 8 said actually... Don't hard your hart.. So it seems it is possible for a Christian to harden his hart after he became a Christian.

Wrong. again read above comments and read it context.


And than the warning is at vs12.. that we have to look to our brothers... Again here is not spoken to not truly Christians.. But to Christians.. because your heart can change by falling of the Living God.

Again, you have not got the context right.

And than vs 14: We have a part at Christ IF we hold the confidence we had in the beginning steadfast unto the end.
Click to expand...

I have answered that above. Glory be to God the Father :)


It is important to read scripture in context.. notice how, the verses you started quoting from start with a '''Therefore''' there is a reason for that.

Anyhow have a blessed day

in Love

Phil
 
H

HumbleSaint

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#96
I think that if a person is walking in the Holy Spirit he is eternaly secure.

For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14
 
C

Consumed

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#97
#97
sheep and goats, those who thought they were sheep find themselves being told "begone unfaithful servant" they say why , didnt we cast out demons danced when you played etc, they forgot what is dear to Jesus, He told the Pharasies. He said "i desire mercy not sacrifice" all in all what we do here on earth is about loving God first and to love our neighbour, regardless who that neighbour may be, moslem, hindu, athiest, whoever,whatever they may have done, even what they are doing now, .Hate the sin yes, love the sinner. Jesus defeated death cause He could do what we naturally cant, heart of man is evil, cant even trust ourselves. We must give an account for our lives, every word spoken, every deed done, yes we have Jesus, cant bury that talent He has given though, we know what the Master did to that unfaithful servant, love God, love everyone, not just some, regardless what if any religion they may profess, love covers a multitude of sins. the power of love, Gods love, demonstrated at calvary, the light shining on a hilltop, illuminating our hearts to our sinful nature. Narrow is the gate, much given, much required, been given the greatest treasure, Himself, cost Him yet counted it all joy to be with us, let us be a reflection of His love, path might seem narrow, but the price is high, the reward is written in blood.
 
D

Dutch41

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#98
#98
HumbleSaint said:
I think that if a person is walking in the Holy Spirit he is eternaly secure.

For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14
Click to expand...
I agree with that. :)

phil36 said:

I have answered that above. Glory be to God the Father :)


It is important to read scripture in context.. notice how, the verses you started quoting from start with a '''Therefore''' there is a reason for that.

Anyhow have a blessed day

in Love

Phil
Click to expand...
The strange 'thing' is, you accuse me that I have to read the text in the context. I showed you all in the context. But you said:I gave you an answered that above... No, you didn't. The only thing is, you gave you your opinion. If you read the context of the part Heb 3, you know that here isn't mentioned the people who aren't saved.

I hope you got a blessed evening too :)
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#99
Feb 12, 2009
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#99
Dutch41 said:
I agree with that. :)



The strange 'thing' is, you accuse me that I have to read the text in the context. I showed you all in the context. But you said:I gave you an answered that above... No, you didn't. The only thing is, you gave you your opinion. If you read the context of the part Heb 3, you know that here isn't mentioned the people who aren't saved.

I hope you got a blessed evening too :)
Click to expand...
You have not shown any context whatsoever Dutch maybe you think you have in your own mind, but there is certainly no context from that long narrative.

I'll post it again for you to read slowly this time, then read the block of narrative that you chose to use only a couple of verses from. Hebrews 3:7-19 this is the smallest block in the writers conversation to his readers. Plus an understanding of the Exodus and Psalm 95 will help extremely well here.

Remember the ''''therefores''' these are very important in texts.. they mean something?





Originally Posted by Dutch41

If I miss understand you... I hope you will make it clear to me.

You said: when you are a true Christian, there can't be bitterness born in your hart. You have misread my post

This Scripture said the opposite of what you say: This is incorrect read below.



Hebr 3:7 vv
Therefore as the Holy Spirit saith: "Today if ye will hear His voice,

Read the urgency, today if you will here his voice, that mean today, not tomorrow, someone who is Born Again has already heard His voice. This is to people who hear the gospel yet do not act upon it. the Israelite's, saw great miracles coming from Egypt to the wilderness yet, did not fully believe they needed more proofs, more miracles.

Just as none believers today, they here the great truth of the gospel, they may even agree yet do not act. Now I say this because I am not sure why you have only quoted part of this great section. you just quote 3:7 then skip till v12-13, this is one whole section and a quote from Psalm 95:7-11, this reinforces the model of do not harden you hearts to the gospel of God's love.

12-13Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin

This is based on an illustration of Isreals unbelief in the wilderness.. (read the whole text) an appeal is made to the readers of Hebrews not to follow this example. It is a warning not to reject the truth that is known. the judgement feel upon those who rejected God's word in the wilderness through Moses, and the warning here is rejecting God's word through Christ (if your read Hebrews as a whole you will see this very easily)

Another example for you Dutch, and this may be an oversite on your part, is that of the word 'Brothers' or 'brethren' this is not Christians as in Hebrews 3:1 where it says Holy Brothers/brethren, it refers to racial brothers, unbelieving brothers,if you have read the book of acts you will have known this.

As I said above you missed a whole chunk of this section of Scripture to try and prove your point. V12-13 read in context with the verse preceding it point to an unbelief not in the believer but the unbeliever. exhort each other daily, to the goodness of Gods grace. while it is called today, the reason being you might not have a chance tomorrow to act on the knowledge you have of the gospel, the more you don't act the more you harden your heart.



14 For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the confidence we had in the beginning steadfast unto the end,

Verse 14 proves my point, if truly a christian, truly born again you will be steadfast in Christ... John 8:31.


So when you study this text very well.. you can't deny that the writer is talking to brothers that the writer talked to Messianic Jews that doesn't make a different, .. (Or Christians) Are they saved? there is not written, that they aren't true Christians.. But it is a warning to all. Or actually the writer wanted to warn the listeners (if it is a preach)

I have read and studied it, and you are wrong. you have taken a couple of verses in an important block and tried to make them say what you want.


By using the words.. that the Holy Spirit this said: If you hear His voice. I think we agree that here with His,... is meant the Lord. And if you wanted to know.. who can hear His voice? Who recognise His voice? Well that is only the Christians. The sheep hear is voice.

Yes the sheep hear His voice, but in the first instance the writer of Hebrews is citing Psalm 95 :7-11, tthis shows that all scripture is God breathed. for it is this Psalm the writer is citing.

And, vs 8 said actually... Don't hard your hart.. So it seems it is possible for a Christian to harden his hart after he became a Christian.

Wrong. again read above comments and read it context.


And than the warning is at vs12.. that we have to look to our brothers... Again here is not spoken to not truly Christians.. But to Christians.. because your heart can change by falling of the Living God.

Again, you have not got the context right.

And than vs 14: We have a part at Christ IF we hold the confidence we had in the beginning steadfast unto the end.

I have answered that above. Glory be to God the Father :)


It is important to read scripture in context.. notice how, the verses you started quoting from start with a '''Therefore''' there is a reason for that.

Anyhow have a blessed day

in Love

Phil
 
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