can a christiain lose their salvation
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"if we hold the confidence to the end"...
does say IF. But it is also saying that if we don't hold the confidence to the end it shows we weren't a true christian. True Christians will hold confidence to the end. I like the way Barnes puts it:
Barnes writes:
If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast - see the note at Heb_3:6. If we continue to maintain the same confidence which we had in the beginning, or which we showed at the commencement of our Christian life. At first, they had been firm in the Christian hope. They evinced true and strong attachment to the Redeemer. They were ardent and devoted to his cause. If they continued to maintain that to the end, that is, the end of life; if in the midst of all temptations and trials they adhered inflexibly to the cause of the Saviour, they would show that they were true Christians, and would partake of the blessedness of the heavenly world with the Redeemer. The idea is, that it is only perseverance in the ways of religion that constitutes certain evidence of piety. Where piety is manifested through life, or where there is an untiring devotion to the cause of God, there the evidence is clear and undoubted.
But where there is at first great ardor, zeal, and confidence, which soon dies away, then it is clear that they never had any real attachment to him and his cause. It may be remarked here, that the "beginning of the confidence" of those who are deceived, and who know nothing about religion at heart, is often as bold as where there is true piety. The hypocrite makes up in ardor what he lacks in sincerity; and he who is really deceived, is usually deceived under the influence of some strong and vivid emotion, which he mistakes for true religion. Often the sincere convert is calm, though decided, and sometimes is even timorous and doubting; while the self-deceiver is noisy in profession, and clamorous in his zeal, and much disposed to blame the lukewarmness of others. Evidence of piety, therefore, should not be built on that early zeal; nor should it be concluded that because there is ardor, there is of necessity genuine religion. Ardor is valuable, and true religion is ardent; but there is other ardor than what the gospel inspires. The evidence of genuine piety is to be found in what will bear us up under trials, and endure amidst persecution and opposition. The doctrine here is, that it is necessary to persevere if we would have the evidence of true piety. This doctrine is taught everywhere in the Scriptures. Persevere in what? I answer, not:
(1) merely in a profession of religion. A man may do that and have no piety.
(2) not in zeal for party, or sect. The Pharisees had that to the end of their lives.
(3) not in mere honesty, and correctness of external deportment. A man may do that in the church, as well as out of it, and yet have no religion.
But we should persevere:
(1) in the love of God and of Christ - in conscious, ardent, steady attachment to Him to whom our lives are professedly devoted.
(2) in the secret duties of religion. In that watchfulness over the heart; that communion with God; that careful study of the Bible; that guardianship over the temper; and in that habitual contact with God in secret prayer which is appropriate to a Christian, and which marks the Christian character.
(3) in the performance of the public duties of religion; in leading a "Christian" life - as distinguished from a life of worldliness and vanity; a life of mere morality, and honesty; a life such as thousands lead who are out of the church.
There is something which distinguishes a Christian from one who is not a Christian; a religious from an irreligious man. There is "something" in religion; "something" which serves to characterize a Christian, and unless that something is manifested, there can be no evidence of true piety. The Christian is to be distinguished in temper, feeling, deportment, aims, plans, from the people of this world - and unless those characteristics are shown in the life and deportment, there can be no well-founded evidence of religion.
Learn:
(1) that it is not mere "feeling" that furnishes evidence of religion.
(2) that it is not mere "excitement" that constitutes religion.
(3) that it is not mere ardor.
(4) that it is not mere zeal.
All these may be temporary. Religion is something that lasts throughout life. It goes with a person everywhere. It is with him in trial. It forms his plans; regulates his temper; suggests his words; prompts to his actions. It lives with him in all his external changes, and goes with him through the dark valley of death, and accompanies him up to the bar of God, and is with him forever.
does say IF. But it is also saying that if we don't hold the confidence to the end it shows we weren't a true christian. True Christians will hold confidence to the end. I like the way Barnes puts it:
Barnes writes:
If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast - see the note at Heb_3:6. If we continue to maintain the same confidence which we had in the beginning, or which we showed at the commencement of our Christian life. At first, they had been firm in the Christian hope. They evinced true and strong attachment to the Redeemer. They were ardent and devoted to his cause. If they continued to maintain that to the end, that is, the end of life; if in the midst of all temptations and trials they adhered inflexibly to the cause of the Saviour, they would show that they were true Christians, and would partake of the blessedness of the heavenly world with the Redeemer. The idea is, that it is only perseverance in the ways of religion that constitutes certain evidence of piety. Where piety is manifested through life, or where there is an untiring devotion to the cause of God, there the evidence is clear and undoubted.
But where there is at first great ardor, zeal, and confidence, which soon dies away, then it is clear that they never had any real attachment to him and his cause. It may be remarked here, that the "beginning of the confidence" of those who are deceived, and who know nothing about religion at heart, is often as bold as where there is true piety. The hypocrite makes up in ardor what he lacks in sincerity; and he who is really deceived, is usually deceived under the influence of some strong and vivid emotion, which he mistakes for true religion. Often the sincere convert is calm, though decided, and sometimes is even timorous and doubting; while the self-deceiver is noisy in profession, and clamorous in his zeal, and much disposed to blame the lukewarmness of others. Evidence of piety, therefore, should not be built on that early zeal; nor should it be concluded that because there is ardor, there is of necessity genuine religion. Ardor is valuable, and true religion is ardent; but there is other ardor than what the gospel inspires. The evidence of genuine piety is to be found in what will bear us up under trials, and endure amidst persecution and opposition. The doctrine here is, that it is necessary to persevere if we would have the evidence of true piety. This doctrine is taught everywhere in the Scriptures. Persevere in what? I answer, not:
(1) merely in a profession of religion. A man may do that and have no piety.
(2) not in zeal for party, or sect. The Pharisees had that to the end of their lives.
(3) not in mere honesty, and correctness of external deportment. A man may do that in the church, as well as out of it, and yet have no religion.
But we should persevere:
(1) in the love of God and of Christ - in conscious, ardent, steady attachment to Him to whom our lives are professedly devoted.
(2) in the secret duties of religion. In that watchfulness over the heart; that communion with God; that careful study of the Bible; that guardianship over the temper; and in that habitual contact with God in secret prayer which is appropriate to a Christian, and which marks the Christian character.
(3) in the performance of the public duties of religion; in leading a "Christian" life - as distinguished from a life of worldliness and vanity; a life of mere morality, and honesty; a life such as thousands lead who are out of the church.
There is something which distinguishes a Christian from one who is not a Christian; a religious from an irreligious man. There is "something" in religion; "something" which serves to characterize a Christian, and unless that something is manifested, there can be no evidence of true piety. The Christian is to be distinguished in temper, feeling, deportment, aims, plans, from the people of this world - and unless those characteristics are shown in the life and deportment, there can be no well-founded evidence of religion.
Learn:
(1) that it is not mere "feeling" that furnishes evidence of religion.
(2) that it is not mere "excitement" that constitutes religion.
(3) that it is not mere ardor.
(4) that it is not mere zeal.
All these may be temporary. Religion is something that lasts throughout life. It goes with a person everywhere. It is with him in trial. It forms his plans; regulates his temper; suggests his words; prompts to his actions. It lives with him in all his external changes, and goes with him through the dark valley of death, and accompanies him up to the bar of God, and is with him forever.
D
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]My quote at your posting was:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But I have to say.. actually you didn't gave a real interpretation of the Script...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Because what I understand what you say was: it was actually the only thing you said: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What you do is actually not given an interpretation.. this is only a pointing to Ps 95:7-11.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yes it is important..of course..because it meant actually that the Holy Spirit is the author of the Holy Script..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The whole time you said: You have to read it in the context.. And I said: I am showing you the whole context... [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It is not that I wanted to teach you, how to read. But I want to gave you some background..(I hope you see the context)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the first part of the chapter.. the writer of the book Hebrew, said that Jesus is much greater as Moses. The writer speaks the believers here with the name 'brothers'. The writer means here, childeren from God and brother from the Lord Jesus. (Heb 2:10-13) So the meaning is when the writer call brothers.. He mean true Christians.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Because that the writer writes that Jesus is greater as Moses, he prepare the brothers to a warning. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yes, he quote the Ps 95:7b-11. And it is written in the precent form. It meant: Like He speake now. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can learn this:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a) Like you said and I agree, the Scripture is God breathed. He is the Author of the OT. (see Heb 9:8, 2Tim 3;16, 2Peter 1:21) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b) When the Holy Spirit is named so specially it is a serious and worrying word that is spoken.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you read it correct, you see that it is used from the LXX. (Ps 95) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The sheep, is always the meaning of the people of the Lord. It can mean the Israelites [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Like it is written in Ps 95:7)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], but it can mean too Christians (Jh 10:16).
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When there is written sheep: Jesus didn't say not for nothing: There can be come wolf in the clothes of sheep. (Mt 10:6, Act 20:29)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the Bible can you reed that the Lord is the Shepper and His people are the sheep. (Look at Is 40:11) Jesus said by Him self in Jh 10:14 [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And Jh 10:16 [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebr 13:20 said: Jesus is the great Shepeard of the sheep.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When the Lord compare Israel with the Church..he don't say: Well... I am talking about people, who doesn't covert to Jesus.. and the warnings are not for you... but for other... No, He warns us. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It is one big warning to us. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vs 8 The writer citate still Ps 95.. And he pointed to Ex 17:1-7 Where the nation stood up against Moses because they got a short of water. The Hebrew names of the places is called Merivah (what mean battle of argue and Massahriva (mean temptation) The LXX said about this names: Reviling and Temptation. The temptation and reviling is not only limited to that both places, but it is for a long period.. (40 years)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When we are looking at the temptation we can see that it isn't about a testing from God to the nation Israel. But the temptation from Israel.. (vs 9; Ps 78:17-19; 95:9)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When we read this we can read a warning at the believers that they don't have to harden their harts. And no provocation. (or other translation bitterness) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]By harden their hards we have to think at the choice that the believer got that he don't wanted to listen any more at the voice of the Lord. The result is unbelieve (vs 12, 19, 4:3)and disobedient (Heb 4:6, 11)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vs 12 is: After ps 95 we get now the actually warning, we can read that because it is written by the word [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]dio[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vs 14 said: We are partakers of Christ. (an other word is parnters) The believers are the body of Christ, and when we read it correct actually... (and I think you like this) We got it... But when we read the next sentence correct, we read: There is a condition, by the word [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]IF[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Namely: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] end,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]can make it a lot longer.. But I think it is very long.. When you study it correct.. there is no other opition... than agree what here is written.. I asked you at an interpretation.. Maybe.. you can gave more than only the pointing.. at Ps 95..
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Have a peace full sleep. GBY
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But I have to say.. actually you didn't gave a real interpretation of the Script...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Because what I understand what you say was: it was actually the only thing you said: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What you do is actually not given an interpretation.. this is only a pointing to Ps 95:7-11.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yes it is important..of course..because it meant actually that the Holy Spirit is the author of the Holy Script..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The whole time you said: You have to read it in the context.. And I said: I am showing you the whole context... [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It is not that I wanted to teach you, how to read. But I want to gave you some background..(I hope you see the context)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the first part of the chapter.. the writer of the book Hebrew, said that Jesus is much greater as Moses. The writer speaks the believers here with the name 'brothers'. The writer means here, childeren from God and brother from the Lord Jesus. (Heb 2:10-13) So the meaning is when the writer call brothers.. He mean true Christians.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Because that the writer writes that Jesus is greater as Moses, he prepare the brothers to a warning. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yes, he quote the Ps 95:7b-11. And it is written in the precent form. It meant: Like He speake now. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can learn this:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a) Like you said and I agree, the Scripture is God breathed. He is the Author of the OT. (see Heb 9:8, 2Tim 3;16, 2Peter 1:21) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b) When the Holy Spirit is named so specially it is a serious and worrying word that is spoken.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you read it correct, you see that it is used from the LXX. (Ps 95) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The sheep, is always the meaning of the people of the Lord. It can mean the Israelites [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Like it is written in Ps 95:7)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], but it can mean too Christians (Jh 10:16).
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When there is written sheep: Jesus didn't say not for nothing: There can be come wolf in the clothes of sheep. (Mt 10:6, Act 20:29)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the Bible can you reed that the Lord is the Shepper and His people are the sheep. (Look at Is 40:11) Jesus said by Him self in Jh 10:14 [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And Jh 10:16 [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebr 13:20 said: Jesus is the great Shepeard of the sheep.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When the Lord compare Israel with the Church..he don't say: Well... I am talking about people, who doesn't covert to Jesus.. and the warnings are not for you... but for other... No, He warns us. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It is one big warning to us. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vs 8 The writer citate still Ps 95.. And he pointed to Ex 17:1-7 Where the nation stood up against Moses because they got a short of water. The Hebrew names of the places is called Merivah (what mean battle of argue and Massahriva (mean temptation) The LXX said about this names: Reviling and Temptation. The temptation and reviling is not only limited to that both places, but it is for a long period.. (40 years)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When we are looking at the temptation we can see that it isn't about a testing from God to the nation Israel. But the temptation from Israel.. (vs 9; Ps 78:17-19; 95:9)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When we read this we can read a warning at the believers that they don't have to harden their harts. And no provocation. (or other translation bitterness) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]By harden their hards we have to think at the choice that the believer got that he don't wanted to listen any more at the voice of the Lord. The result is unbelieve (vs 12, 19, 4:3)and disobedient (Heb 4:6, 11)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vs 12 is: After ps 95 we get now the actually warning, we can read that because it is written by the word [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]dio[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vs 14 said: We are partakers of Christ. (an other word is parnters) The believers are the body of Christ, and when we read it correct actually... (and I think you like this) We got it... But when we read the next sentence correct, we read: There is a condition, by the word [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]IF[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Namely: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] end,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]can make it a lot longer.. But I think it is very long.. When you study it correct.. there is no other opition... than agree what here is written.. I asked you at an interpretation.. Maybe.. you can gave more than only the pointing.. at Ps 95..
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Have a peace full sleep. GBY
[/FONT]
D
Hoi Mahogonysnail
To understand what Barnes mean: You have to read his commend on Heb 6:4 and 10:26
It is true, that if we maintain to the end, we are true Christians...
But does he mean: True Christians can't fall of their believe?
We have to look at Heb 6:4 to understand what he mean:
What does he write more in 10:26
I hope you know what Barnes mean by this.
To understand what Barnes mean: You have to read his commend on Heb 6:4 and 10:26
It is true, that if we maintain to the end, we are true Christians...
But does he mean: True Christians can't fall of their believe?
We have to look at Heb 6:4 to understand what he mean:
What does he write more in 10:26
I hope you know what Barnes mean by this.
D
Well I don't know for sure if I understand what you mean. 
Barnes, he believed, true Christians can fall... But what he meant in the note from 3:14 is true too. If we get to the end.. we are True Christians..
He believed like I wrote earlier about Heb 10, that it is about true Christians...Who once made a choice. And he confirmed what I said..
Barnes, he believed, true Christians can fall... But what he meant in the note from 3:14 is true too. If we get to the end.. we are True Christians..
He believed like I wrote earlier about Heb 10, that it is about true Christians...Who once made a choice. And he confirmed what I said..
I normally don't debate this issue because I have found that it accomplishes nothing and tends to ungodliness. However, I just wanted to post this comment that I made in another thread because I find it humorous.
Basically I stumbled upon that particular thread, where the idea of eternal security was being promoted and someone made a comment like: "You may find opposition to this idea in this thread." Well, I didn't want to disappoint him.
I think it's funny because no one saw the point I was making with the scripture I provided:
Quest
Basically I stumbled upon that particular thread, where the idea of eternal security was being promoted and someone made a comment like: "You may find opposition to this idea in this thread." Well, I didn't want to disappoint him.
I think it's funny because no one saw the point I was making with the scripture I provided:
Quest
A person can lose their salvation.
The thing is that some people after they are saved which they are to turn away from all sin and have their sins washed away and allow the Spirit to lead them to maintain their salvation go back to doing things of the world although they still confess as their savior and they lose their salvation.
There are millions of people who claim Christ as their savior but not every one of them is led by the Spirit.It is the people who are not led of the Spirit that were not saved according to the scriptures that do not have salvation in the first place or lost their salvation later after they confessed Christ and were saved according to the scriptures.
That is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not saved is if they are led of the Spirit or not.
Jesus said not everybody that confesses Him as Lord will make it to heaven.These people confessed Christ as Lord and maintained that position until they died and was before Jesus in which they said we did works in your name Lord but Jesus said I know you not.
The 10 virgins,10 people confessing Christ as their savior,5 made it and 5 did not make it.
It takes more than confessing Christ as your savior as is in the scriptures so why don't people find out what it is that is needed.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).
Matt
The thing is that some people after they are saved which they are to turn away from all sin and have their sins washed away and allow the Spirit to lead them to maintain their salvation go back to doing things of the world although they still confess as their savior and they lose their salvation.
There are millions of people who claim Christ as their savior but not every one of them is led by the Spirit.It is the people who are not led of the Spirit that were not saved according to the scriptures that do not have salvation in the first place or lost their salvation later after they confessed Christ and were saved according to the scriptures.
That is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not saved is if they are led of the Spirit or not.
Jesus said not everybody that confesses Him as Lord will make it to heaven.These people confessed Christ as Lord and maintained that position until they died and was before Jesus in which they said we did works in your name Lord but Jesus said I know you not.
The 10 virgins,10 people confessing Christ as their savior,5 made it and 5 did not make it.
It takes more than confessing Christ as your savior as is in the scriptures so why don't people find out what it is that is needed.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).
Matt
Is this a response to my post above MPaper345? If so, you didn't address the spirit behind what the scripture I gave was conveying.
The scripture says that whoever believes is saved, and whoever does not believe is ****ed. Is there a man living on this earth who believed from childhood? When they did not believe, were they saved? When they used to walk around cursing God, were they saved? Was I saved when I was walking around trying to establish my own righteousness?
The scripture could reference a final decision however, at the conclusion of each man's life. It's just an argument that came to mind.
Quest
The scripture says that whoever believes is saved, and whoever does not believe is ****ed. Is there a man living on this earth who believed from childhood? When they did not believe, were they saved? When they used to walk around cursing God, were they saved? Was I saved when I was walking around trying to establish my own righteousness?
The scripture could reference a final decision however, at the conclusion of each man's life. It's just an argument that came to mind.
Quest
Mmm, this could go on forever..
Thanks for your view on hermeneutics and exegesis, which I still hold that you are flawed in your view that one can lose salvation. Your exegeses does not prove anything.
You have to be very careful when you make comments about teaching people how to read or do hermeneutics, unless of course you are more intellectual than the commentators, this can be viewed as pride (by trying to show off an intellect, which on might not possess), and an ignorance to the views of others who are probably far superior in their hermeneutics/exegeses than yourself (I'm not talking about myself when I say that.)
anyhow that said, I still think you to be wrong. But I doubt that we will agree on this matter.
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5
". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18
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[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!
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We become the BODY OF CHRIST[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18
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This one is very important....read slowly"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
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[FONT=Arial, helvetica]With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!
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Why do people doubt their salvation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10
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[*]They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.
"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26[*]They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3[*]They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.
"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13[*]They trust in their own righteousness.
". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." Isaiah 64:6[*]They misapply and misunderstand scriptures.
They misapply scriptures such as Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26 to the church age of grace, when they doctrinally apply to the tribulation or the millenium.[*]They have NEVER been saved.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21[/FONT]
Have a blessed night Dutch.
Phil
S
"I truly believe once saved always saved. I do know that we will have our times in the wilderness (and thats from personal experience), maybe not us all, but most will, but if you are saved, truly born again, God will punish you as His child and bring you back into the pen. but you never have lost your position as a child of God."
When I was younger, I repented, was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tounges. According the the book of Acts, I was saved. About the time I graduated high school, I began to be enticed by all the fun and excitement worldy living had to offer. I allowed some personal hurts and doctrinal questions get the best of me, and I walked away. I wiped the slate clean and decided there was so much more out there and what I had was not good enough for me.
Without intending to, I started a 16 year journey as far away from God as I could. I lived my life without any rules, and did whatever I felt would make me happy at the time. I did unthinkable things, unimaginable things, and had the most fun a human being can imagine. I spit in the face of God everyday by the choices I made. Not justdenying God's existance, but living in the very belly of all types of evil you can imagine.
I knew the consequences of my choices, and I truly believe if I had lost my life during this period, there is NO WAY I could have been saved. I didn't "lose" my salvation. I willingly gave it away!
By God's grace, and finally some common sense, I realized that if I continued on the same path I had been on for so long, I was going to die soon, and die lost. I found my way back to an alter of repentance and am working hard to heal the wounds of my past so I can develop that lasting relationship with God that I so deeply long for.
I don't believe that as long as you are actively trying to do the right thing and live a godly life, you can lose your salvation. No one is perfect, and we all have some sin in our life at any given time. But the real difference is intention. If your intentions are pure and you are a struggling Christian, who makes mistakes and seeks God's grace, that is one thing. But if you walk away with no intention to ever return, you are walking away from God's grace by choice. The Bible says in II Choronicles 15:2, "The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, he will forsake you."
God watched me walk away from my family, my religion and reality. He never stopped loving me, but he never forced me to do the right thing either. He was there waiting in case I ever wanted to return, ready and willing to forgive me. But the choice was still mine. He moved in my life on occasion, to let me know he was still there. But still the choice was mine. And if I never returned, I would be lost, because in the end, the choice was always mine.
When I was younger, I repented, was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tounges. According the the book of Acts, I was saved. About the time I graduated high school, I began to be enticed by all the fun and excitement worldy living had to offer. I allowed some personal hurts and doctrinal questions get the best of me, and I walked away. I wiped the slate clean and decided there was so much more out there and what I had was not good enough for me.
Without intending to, I started a 16 year journey as far away from God as I could. I lived my life without any rules, and did whatever I felt would make me happy at the time. I did unthinkable things, unimaginable things, and had the most fun a human being can imagine. I spit in the face of God everyday by the choices I made. Not justdenying God's existance, but living in the very belly of all types of evil you can imagine.
I knew the consequences of my choices, and I truly believe if I had lost my life during this period, there is NO WAY I could have been saved. I didn't "lose" my salvation. I willingly gave it away!
By God's grace, and finally some common sense, I realized that if I continued on the same path I had been on for so long, I was going to die soon, and die lost. I found my way back to an alter of repentance and am working hard to heal the wounds of my past so I can develop that lasting relationship with God that I so deeply long for.
I don't believe that as long as you are actively trying to do the right thing and live a godly life, you can lose your salvation. No one is perfect, and we all have some sin in our life at any given time. But the real difference is intention. If your intentions are pure and you are a struggling Christian, who makes mistakes and seeks God's grace, that is one thing. But if you walk away with no intention to ever return, you are walking away from God's grace by choice. The Bible says in II Choronicles 15:2, "The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, he will forsake you."
God watched me walk away from my family, my religion and reality. He never stopped loving me, but he never forced me to do the right thing either. He was there waiting in case I ever wanted to return, ready and willing to forgive me. But the choice was still mine. He moved in my life on occasion, to let me know he was still there. But still the choice was mine. And if I never returned, I would be lost, because in the end, the choice was always mine.
Hi, that was a good post.
I have read many testimonies similar.. All the Glory goes to God
I think we all have our times in the wilderness, some are wild times some not so, yet they are in the wilderness.
I always remind myself of God's good grace and stories like yours are wonderful testimony that God will never let His child who is in the Kingdom go, no matter how hard they struggle against Him..it reminds me of teenagers..wow they struggle like mad with their parents but their parents never let them go, even through most disobedient times.
If you are truly a child of God, He will always bring you back into the fold, He will work on you until you reach a point where you realize that He never left you, and bring you back to repentance. What a wonderful gracious God we serve, it shows His steadfast love to His Children.
The problem is we are full of pride and often think that it is us who do all the work.. but when you get to a certain point the Holy Spirit will overwhelm back to repentance. you are a true Child of God. wilderness or not .
God is Steadfast in His love for those in Christ, we may not be, but He is. He brought me back.. and He brought you back.
In Love
Phil (Ive had my wilderness time aswell)
Thanks for keeping this topic civil.
(I seem to be outnumbered also)
Perhaps one of these days I will do a side by side comparison between Wesley's Free Grace and Whitefield's reply. Maybe, don't count me on it as that would be tedious.
Quest
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Hi, that was a good post.
I have read many testimonies similar.. All the Glory goes to God
I think we all have our times in the wilderness, some are wild times some not so, yet they are in the wilderness.
I always remind myself of God's good grace and stories like yours are wonderful testimony that God will never let His child who is in the Kingdom go, no matter how hard they struggle against Him..it reminds me of teenagers..wow they struggle like mad with their parents but their parents never let them go, even through most disobedient times.
If you are truly a child of God, He will always bring you back into the fold, He will work on you until you reach a point where you realize that He never left you, and bring you back to repentance. What a wonderful gracious God we serve, it shows His steadfast love to His Children.
The problem is we are full of pride and often think that it is us who do all the work.. but when you get to a certain point the Holy Spirit will overwhelm back to repentance. you are a true Child of God. wilderness or not .
God is Steadfast in His love for those in Christ, we may not be, but He is. He brought me back.. and He brought you back.
In Love
Phil (Ive had my wilderness time aswell)
I have read many testimonies similar.. All the Glory goes to God
I think we all have our times in the wilderness, some are wild times some not so, yet they are in the wilderness.
I always remind myself of God's good grace and stories like yours are wonderful testimony that God will never let His child who is in the Kingdom go, no matter how hard they struggle against Him..it reminds me of teenagers..wow they struggle like mad with their parents but their parents never let them go, even through most disobedient times.
If you are truly a child of God, He will always bring you back into the fold, He will work on you until you reach a point where you realize that He never left you, and bring you back to repentance. What a wonderful gracious God we serve, it shows His steadfast love to His Children.
The problem is we are full of pride and often think that it is us who do all the work.. but when you get to a certain point the Holy Spirit will overwhelm back to repentance. you are a true Child of God. wilderness or not .
God is Steadfast in His love for those in Christ, we may not be, but He is. He brought me back.. and He brought you back.
In Love
Phil (Ive had my wilderness time aswell)