I tried to walk away from this conversation, but I am so bothered by it that it almost hurts my heart. I can understand the point you are trying to make, and why you take this position. But I have to totally disagree. Before I explain let me say, I agree with the statement that a Christian can never lose his salvation. Once you become a child of God nothing and no one can ever take that away from you. So yes, you are right. (I would say you cannot even yourself take it away, as salvation it elf is not from you, it is an act of grace from God)
However...
If you say that we can not freely choose to walk away from the grace of God, and turn back to our wicked ways, denounce our faith and live in sin, then you are removing free will. If you argue that if I turned my back on God, I must not have been truly saved, then Acts 2:38 is not the way to salvation Acts 2:38 tells you how to be saved . When I look back at my past... with good intentions I repented, I was baptized and I received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tounges. I may not understand that, but I cannot deny it happened. So I was saved with every intention to follow His plan for my life from then on. if you truly believed it, you where saved, remember salvation is from God not us. He saves not you, when you are born again you have the Spirit in you as it is the Spirit that changes your heart so that you can believe, for before that you are a slave to sin, when you exercise Faith that is conversion, people misunderstand this. God initiates, softens your heart so that you can see the light, you respond in Faith (believe). only you and God will know if you where saved at this point in your life.
Years later, I turned away. I denounced my faith in God, I became a drunk, a drug addict, a drug dealer, a thief, a liar, full of blastphemy. I participated in all types of sexual immoralities. I lived for the moment, and loved my life with no intention of ever returning. I laughed in the face of God. (As many have. many don't but some do.. just look at the story of King David and yet he was a man after God's own heart)
According to Galations 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." This is very true, you have forgotten the next part with the works of the Spirit in you, Galatians is a book which realy was crucial to the fledgling church, Paul was in real battle with 'judaizers, who where trying, basically put, to get Christians to observe Judaism, the whole point here is that we we are not under the law but free in Christ, for the Spirit in us will work the Law through Love. this is where people go wrong with verses like Galatians. Paul is stressing freedom in Christ, that we are no longer under the curse of the law (for those in Christ).
So either I wasn't ever truly saved, according to Acts 2:38 and every other verse that says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, or I was saved and I willingly surrendered God's grace in my life so I could be the ruler of my own world, because I thought I could do a much better job. I totally agree, believe on the Lord Jesus, and YOU WILL BE SAVED. we all rely on ourselves at times, thasts the whole problem?? we think we are God ? yet when God saves you He will work on you.
God did not bring me back to Him, I willingly came back because I was tired of falling flat on my face over and over again, by running the show on my own. I thought, what do I have to lose? I was not pricked in my heart to turn to God, it was more an act of desperation. if you were not truly His you would have carried on, there are millions in the world as you have described yet do not call to God, you where God's and he brought you back, God's punishs as a Father punishes a child, do you honestly believe God was going to let one of His prescious sheep go?I made the first move, This is where we as Christians think we can control God's grace..We say things like.. I decide, I made the first move its all ME ME ME ME and More ME. It is God who brought you to your knees in repentance. when you see this you will truly have assurance, and you will see the Majestic Sovereign work of God in Salvation. And He was waiting there for me to turn to Him Isn't God glorious! He was watching over you all that time, but still, He knew His sheep and none will be lost, not one. It was a complete act of faith, because at the time I fell on my face before God and begged for His mercy, I was not even sure He really existed. But again, I had nothing to lose by trying. I was totally unworthy, after rejecting Him for so long, but He wrapped me in His arms and forgave me Amen, to God's gloriuous grace..
That is where grace happens. That is where the transfer occurs from, it being salvation by my actions to salvation by grace. I did not save myself by running to Him. He saved me by grace! In His mind my salvation was already assured when Jesus paid the price for me on Calvary What a wonderful statement, He already knew you where His before you did amen.. But my salvation was not complete until I accepted that gift When the Holy Spirit regenrates your heart and you exscercise Faith it is complete, for you have repneted, Justified and adopted into the Family of God. You can say salvation has nothing to do with our actions, but oh it does! Repentance, turning away, and living according to His will are all actions we do, that represent us reaching out and taking His gift. He will not give us salvation, until we ask for it Wow, He will not give us salvation until we ask for it, I disagree, Titus 3:5; John 3:5, . Ask... a verb, and action that my salvation is dependent on, regeneration of the heart happens first, this is where people get confused salvation is solely of God, once your heart is free from enslavement to sin and darkness, you can see properly who Jesus is and your need of a Saviour, when you exercise Faith and repent (this is conversion, many get confused on these points)! Once we have received the gift of life he has for us, we can never lose it, it can never be taken from us. That is His promise, but it is something we can shove back in His face... and though His love will remain, his grace will remain it will not abide in us, God will see you through to the end, once you are saved you have assurance, that is if you are truly saved some people make premisory utterances that they believe Christ, but remember so do the demons, they believe he is who he is.
No saint should ever be afraid of falling from grace, so long as they strive to live their lives accordance to God's will. As long as you are placing on foot in front of the other, and doing what you truly believe is right, you can and will never lose your salvation! And I think, my friends, that was the whole point of this topic right? This was a lovely ending, you will never lose your salvation, if you are truly Born again... truly born again!
(Sorry for the lengthiness!)
However...
If you say that we can not freely choose to walk away from the grace of God, and turn back to our wicked ways, denounce our faith and live in sin, then you are removing free will. If you argue that if I turned my back on God, I must not have been truly saved, then Acts 2:38 is not the way to salvation Acts 2:38 tells you how to be saved . When I look back at my past... with good intentions I repented, I was baptized and I received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tounges. I may not understand that, but I cannot deny it happened. So I was saved with every intention to follow His plan for my life from then on. if you truly believed it, you where saved, remember salvation is from God not us. He saves not you, when you are born again you have the Spirit in you as it is the Spirit that changes your heart so that you can believe, for before that you are a slave to sin, when you exercise Faith that is conversion, people misunderstand this. God initiates, softens your heart so that you can see the light, you respond in Faith (believe). only you and God will know if you where saved at this point in your life.
Years later, I turned away. I denounced my faith in God, I became a drunk, a drug addict, a drug dealer, a thief, a liar, full of blastphemy. I participated in all types of sexual immoralities. I lived for the moment, and loved my life with no intention of ever returning. I laughed in the face of God. (As many have. many don't but some do.. just look at the story of King David and yet he was a man after God's own heart)
According to Galations 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." This is very true, you have forgotten the next part with the works of the Spirit in you, Galatians is a book which realy was crucial to the fledgling church, Paul was in real battle with 'judaizers, who where trying, basically put, to get Christians to observe Judaism, the whole point here is that we we are not under the law but free in Christ, for the Spirit in us will work the Law through Love. this is where people go wrong with verses like Galatians. Paul is stressing freedom in Christ, that we are no longer under the curse of the law (for those in Christ).
So either I wasn't ever truly saved, according to Acts 2:38 and every other verse that says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, or I was saved and I willingly surrendered God's grace in my life so I could be the ruler of my own world, because I thought I could do a much better job. I totally agree, believe on the Lord Jesus, and YOU WILL BE SAVED. we all rely on ourselves at times, thasts the whole problem?? we think we are God ? yet when God saves you He will work on you.
God did not bring me back to Him, I willingly came back because I was tired of falling flat on my face over and over again, by running the show on my own. I thought, what do I have to lose? I was not pricked in my heart to turn to God, it was more an act of desperation. if you were not truly His you would have carried on, there are millions in the world as you have described yet do not call to God, you where God's and he brought you back, God's punishs as a Father punishes a child, do you honestly believe God was going to let one of His prescious sheep go?I made the first move, This is where we as Christians think we can control God's grace..We say things like.. I decide, I made the first move its all ME ME ME ME and More ME. It is God who brought you to your knees in repentance. when you see this you will truly have assurance, and you will see the Majestic Sovereign work of God in Salvation. And He was waiting there for me to turn to Him Isn't God glorious! He was watching over you all that time, but still, He knew His sheep and none will be lost, not one. It was a complete act of faith, because at the time I fell on my face before God and begged for His mercy, I was not even sure He really existed. But again, I had nothing to lose by trying. I was totally unworthy, after rejecting Him for so long, but He wrapped me in His arms and forgave me Amen, to God's gloriuous grace..
That is where grace happens. That is where the transfer occurs from, it being salvation by my actions to salvation by grace. I did not save myself by running to Him. He saved me by grace! In His mind my salvation was already assured when Jesus paid the price for me on Calvary What a wonderful statement, He already knew you where His before you did amen.. But my salvation was not complete until I accepted that gift When the Holy Spirit regenrates your heart and you exscercise Faith it is complete, for you have repneted, Justified and adopted into the Family of God. You can say salvation has nothing to do with our actions, but oh it does! Repentance, turning away, and living according to His will are all actions we do, that represent us reaching out and taking His gift. He will not give us salvation, until we ask for it Wow, He will not give us salvation until we ask for it, I disagree, Titus 3:5; John 3:5, . Ask... a verb, and action that my salvation is dependent on, regeneration of the heart happens first, this is where people get confused salvation is solely of God, once your heart is free from enslavement to sin and darkness, you can see properly who Jesus is and your need of a Saviour, when you exercise Faith and repent (this is conversion, many get confused on these points)! Once we have received the gift of life he has for us, we can never lose it, it can never be taken from us. That is His promise, but it is something we can shove back in His face... and though His love will remain, his grace will remain it will not abide in us, God will see you through to the end, once you are saved you have assurance, that is if you are truly saved some people make premisory utterances that they believe Christ, but remember so do the demons, they believe he is who he is.
No saint should ever be afraid of falling from grace, so long as they strive to live their lives accordance to God's will. As long as you are placing on foot in front of the other, and doing what you truly believe is right, you can and will never lose your salvation! And I think, my friends, that was the whole point of this topic right? This was a lovely ending, you will never lose your salvation, if you are truly Born again... truly born again!
(Sorry for the lengthiness!)
I think it is people still trying to play a part, we dont want to humble ourselves before a Holy Sovereign God. we want to say instead. ME ME ME me, its my choice, I am the boss, I will decide.
Fortunately, God is in control, He will save you and keep you to the end.
Wow I really wonder how those who are saved can actually sleep, if you think you can lose your salvation, how do you know, that the work of the cross has saved you, you might still have some hidden sin somwhere wow you might not get to heaven.
For me Christ's Substitutionary Atonement is suffiecent for me.
As I have said in other posts this does not negate what James talks about in His letter.
in love
Phil
