Can people be accepted into heaven without hearing the gospel?
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What if I'm not able to go as far as the jungles? Though i wish i could because i always dreamed to go to the mountains and preach the gospel and stuff. Maybe I will someday, but only God knows. What about the people I have contact with every day? At my job there are many who don't know about the gospel, and even those who do know it don't really understand it. I've tried ministering to them but their hearts are too proud and reject me. Btw my previous post was from Romans 9:18-24
Second part of the issue
For those of us here who have said that Christ alone is the way to salvation and that Romans 2:12-14 does not apply to the remote village situation.....
What do verses 15-16 mean?
"show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. "
My question is: What are their conflicting thoughts excusing them from on the day of judgement?
For those of us here who have said that Christ alone is the way to salvation and that Romans 2:12-14 does not apply to the remote village situation.....
What do verses 15-16 mean?
"show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. "
My question is: What are their conflicting thoughts excusing them from on the day of judgement?
The gist of what Paul is saying, is that God is right to judge and condemn the gentiles, even though they were not given the law on stone tablets as the Jews, but because they have a conscience, and their conscience proving that they have some knowledge of the law, and so were without excuse.
Their thoughts excusing or accusing one another, refers to how the gentiles would in their discussions or reasonings, would accuse or excuse one another , showing that they had a "law unto themselves". We could say the same thing of non-christians today. Atheists for example, who know right from wrong, they know its wrong to do this or that, accusing or excusing one another or themselves. But this only proves that they have no excuse where God's judgement is concerned. They cannot claim "I didn't know" of God's law, as they are already living and acting according to it.
So we can see that these verses, are quite the contrary to the popular belief that they are claiming some sort of back pasage entrance to heaven for people who haven't heard the Gospel. It says the opposite really. God is not unfair to judge people in remote villages who have not heard the Gospel, as they already have some knowledge of the law. To quote a verse in that passage:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Their thoughts excusing or accusing one another, refers to how the gentiles would in their discussions or reasonings, would accuse or excuse one another , showing that they had a "law unto themselves". We could say the same thing of non-christians today. Atheists for example, who know right from wrong, they know its wrong to do this or that, accusing or excusing one another or themselves. But this only proves that they have no excuse where God's judgement is concerned. They cannot claim "I didn't know" of God's law, as they are already living and acting according to it.
So we can see that these verses, are quite the contrary to the popular belief that they are claiming some sort of back pasage entrance to heaven for people who haven't heard the Gospel. It says the opposite really. God is not unfair to judge people in remote villages who have not heard the Gospel, as they already have some knowledge of the law. To quote a verse in that passage:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
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It also means that if a person who has not heard the Gospel lives according to their conscience and obeys God's law written on their heart, they come under God's blessing:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Biblical examples of such people would be Cornelius in Acts 10. If he had died before Peter came to him with the gospel, I believe he would have gone to heaven.
Note that Cornelius was not a Jew. But a gentile who had abandoned paganism and tried to worship the one true God. He was a man of prayer, and benevolent, and God accepted him. Much of the gentile converts to Christianity were made up of people like this.
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Biblical examples of such people would be Cornelius in Acts 10. If he had died before Peter came to him with the gospel, I believe he would have gone to heaven.
Note that Cornelius was not a Jew. But a gentile who had abandoned paganism and tried to worship the one true God. He was a man of prayer, and benevolent, and God accepted him. Much of the gentile converts to Christianity were made up of people like this.
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Note the important words in verse 35: "is accepted with him". God accepts him/her. God accepts them through Christ, even though they may not personally know Christ yet. Christ has already died for their sins and bridged that gap. So we can relax. God is not going to send to hell, anyone who shouldn't be there.
So the reason why it is important to send the gospel to unreached lands, is because the far majority of people who have not heard are most likely going to hell. Even though God accepts people like Cornelius, they are rare. Cornelius lived in a country which was very religious and Judaism all around. So he had exposure to it. I would say the chances of similar occuring in a remote jungle tribe is extremely rare. The preaching and power of the Gospel, will result in many more converts.
Well Snail, your basically saying that the cross was of no effect for Cornelius. Since he was a righteous man and would have went to heaven without hearing the gospel. Basically what you are saying is that there are a few good people who will go to heaven without the grace of God. The scripture says other wise that without grace no man seeks God, no man does good, no not ONE. I think that is there for people like you who want to believe that man can save himself of his own will.
Quite the opposite. It was by God's grace that God sent an angel and Peter to Cornelius, it was by God's grace that God accepted Cornelius even before Peter came to him. And it would be by God's grace, and because of the cross, that God would accept Cornelius into heaven should he have died before hearing the Gospel.
Do you believe what Acts 10:35 says? In every nation, anyone who works righteousness is accepted by God.
Sorry about that, I'll expand in this one.
Quite the opposite. It was by God's grace that God sent an angel and Peter to Cornelius, it was by God's grace that God accepted Cornelius even before Peter came to him. And it would be by God's grace, and because of the cross, that God would accept Cornelius into heaven should he have died before hearing the Gospel. Cornelius was sinful too and needed Christ. The difference is, Christ already died and paid for Cornelius's sins. This might come as a shock or even heresy to most evangelicals, but God lets into heaven whoever he wishes to, and He doesn't need us to tell Him that such and such a person hasn't fulfilled all our requirements (eg praying the sinners prayer, or believing this or that) to let anyone into heaven. The same faith which Abraham had still declares a person righteous in God's eyes today. Even moreso now, that Christ has paid for their sins, there is no need now of any more sacrifice.
Do you believe what Acts 10:35 says? In every nation, anyone who works righteousness is accepted by God. Accepted means accepted, there should be no argument with that.
Sorry it doesn't. There's no single version which says all of what you just said above on the one hit. It says there is none righteous in Romans, and contrary to your claim that it says "without grace no man seeks God" it in fact says the opposite, to seek God while He may be found.
Isa 55:6 Seek Jehovah while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
The point is, God wants to be found, God wants to be sought. I know you are a Calvinistic but you must try to follow God yourself and not man or another man's (eg Calvin) interpretation of God.
Quite the opposite. It was by God's grace that God sent an angel and Peter to Cornelius, it was by God's grace that God accepted Cornelius even before Peter came to him. And it would be by God's grace, and because of the cross, that God would accept Cornelius into heaven should he have died before hearing the Gospel. Cornelius was sinful too and needed Christ. The difference is, Christ already died and paid for Cornelius's sins. This might come as a shock or even heresy to most evangelicals, but God lets into heaven whoever he wishes to, and He doesn't need us to tell Him that such and such a person hasn't fulfilled all our requirements (eg praying the sinners prayer, or believing this or that) to let anyone into heaven. The same faith which Abraham had still declares a person righteous in God's eyes today. Even moreso now, that Christ has paid for their sins, there is no need now of any more sacrifice.
Do you believe what Acts 10:35 says? In every nation, anyone who works righteousness is accepted by God. Accepted means accepted, there should be no argument with that.
Sorry it doesn't. There's no single version which says all of what you just said above on the one hit. It says there is none righteous in Romans, and contrary to your claim that it says "without grace no man seeks God" it in fact says the opposite, to seek God while He may be found.
Isa 55:6 Seek Jehovah while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
The point is, God wants to be found, God wants to be sought. I know you are a Calvinistic but you must try to follow God yourself and not man or another man's (eg Calvin) interpretation of God.
Right on the money!! Some people are saying that we can accept Jesus as our Savior without knowing who He is! If we have never heard the Gospel, HOW CAN WE KNOW JESUS? Cornelius was NOT SAVED until he heard the Gospel from Peter, and knew who Jesus was, why He died on the cross, and was THEN able to accept His atoning sacrifice. WE CANNOT ACCEPT SOMEONE WHO WE DON'T KNOW AS OUR SAVIOR!!!!!
I believe the gentiles spoken of hear are the christian ones, for it says, "who show the work of the law written on their hearts" that is from the seed planted by the hearing of the gospel. The Holy Spirit in them testifing of the acceptance of their works by God. It comes back to the natural jew being instructed out of the law and the christian being instructed out of the spirit. This is not speaking about those who never heard the gospel I believe that is addressed in Romans 1, and it states plainly the nature of man, and the judgement put upon them by God.
Ok, going bottom to top here somewhat so bear with me.
Scripture clearly states that no man seeks God except for grace.
(my empathis)
John 6:44 No one(1) can come to Me(2) unless the Father who sent Me draws(3) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1. No exceptions
2. seek God, recieve forgiveness and eternal life
3. grace required, the act of God
Do you mean where Paul quoted it from? Because he sure put it together.
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;[b]
“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[c]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[d]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[e]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
You also see it here the nature of man, and the root cause of the 'righteous' man at the time.
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
the righteous man in verse 8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Now it is God's decree that His elect in this age shall be saved by believing in His Son, through the preaching of the gospel. That is how God decided to do it. There is no examples given of God calling someone without them later being presented with the gospel.
There is no adding Christ's righteousness on top of our's. Any good works or religious practice that is not brought about by the grace of God is but filthy rags before God, the root being our sinful pride, desire to have the praise of men, etc.
You are right that God let's into heaven whoever He wishes, His will is also stronger than man's will. If His elect are in a jungle somewhere, God will make sure they hear the gospel. This is because it is not about man, but the Glory of God.
Scripture clearly states that no man seeks God except for grace.
(my empathis)
John 6:44 No one(1) can come to Me(2) unless the Father who sent Me draws(3) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1. No exceptions
2. seek God, recieve forgiveness and eternal life
3. grace required, the act of God
Do you mean where Paul quoted it from? Because he sure put it together.
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;[b]
“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[c]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[d]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[e]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
You also see it here the nature of man, and the root cause of the 'righteous' man at the time.
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD[a] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
the righteous man in verse 8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Now it is God's decree that His elect in this age shall be saved by believing in His Son, through the preaching of the gospel. That is how God decided to do it. There is no examples given of God calling someone without them later being presented with the gospel.
There is no adding Christ's righteousness on top of our's. Any good works or religious practice that is not brought about by the grace of God is but filthy rags before God, the root being our sinful pride, desire to have the praise of men, etc.
You are right that God let's into heaven whoever He wishes, His will is also stronger than man's will. If His elect are in a jungle somewhere, God will make sure they hear the gospel. This is because it is not about man, but the Glory of God.
We both agree that no one can come to God unless God draw him/her. The thing is, I would attribute God's drawing not just to grace but to the cross. Here is the verse to prove it:
Joh 12:32And I,ifIbelifted upfromtheearth,willdrawallmenuntome.
And it is careful to say ALL men, not just some men, not most men, but all men. God's drawing is happening on on every person who hears the Gospel. Of course, the whole of the cross comes under God's grace, but then again we come to the point where a person must receive God's grace by accepting Christ crucified.
The point is that righteousness is not something which only comes by hearing the gospel, but by faith. Abraham did not hear the Gospel but was still declared righteous because of his faith in the one true God.
Noah found grace in God's eyes, not because God randomly chose him to have grace upon him, but because Noah was a good and upright man and distressed at the wickedness around him. One example of God's conditional grace.
There are examples however of God declaring people accepted (and therefore righteous) before they heard the Gospel. Such as Cornelius. It might mess up our theology that God can save a person before they've even heard the gospel, but that's basically the extraordinary extent of God's grace - it doesn't begin and end with the Gospel.
Choosing to follow Christ and do the right thing is never considered a self-righteous work in scripture.
In sort of reverse logic, if no one goes to the jungle and preaches the gospel, then no one gets saved, and therefore you would conclude that no one in that jungle was God's elect. Christianity would not have hardly got off the ground if the apostles and early church believed like this.
Joh 12:32And I,ifIbelifted upfromtheearth,willdrawallmenuntome.
And it is careful to say ALL men, not just some men, not most men, but all men. God's drawing is happening on on every person who hears the Gospel. Of course, the whole of the cross comes under God's grace, but then again we come to the point where a person must receive God's grace by accepting Christ crucified
. The point is that righteousness is not something which only comes by hearing the gospel, but by faith. Abraham did not hear the Gospel but was still declared righteous because of his faith in the one true God.
Noah found grace in God's eyes, not because God randomly chose him to have grace upon him, but because Noah was a good and upright man and distressed at the wickedness around him. One example of God's conditional grace.
There are examples however of God declaring people accepted (and therefore righteous) before they heard the Gospel. Such as Cornelius. It might mess up our theology that God can save a person before they've even heard the gospel, but that's basically the extraordinary extent of God's grace - it doesn't begin and end with the Gospel.
Choosing to follow Christ and do the right thing is never considered a self-righteous work in scripture.
In sort of reverse logic, if no one goes to the jungle and preaches the gospel, then no one gets saved, and therefore you would conclude that no one in that jungle was God's elect. Christianity would not have hardly got off the ground if the apostles and early church believed like this.