Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

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Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Would you agree then that saving faith is not a gift, that we as people are able to be convicted and persuaded based on all that you stated above?
Absolutely. Saving faith is NOT a gift, but it is GENERATED through (1) the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit on the sinner. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Peter calls the Gospel the Word of God, and tells us that it is the seed of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

If saving faith were a gift, it would be give to all without exception. Why? Because God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4).
 
Feb 27, 2019
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Jesus ministered to the Samaritan woman and the whole town - Jesus does not do things by mistake.
Hi, Chester -

Yes, He certainly ministered to the Samaritans and other Gentiles. And at the very same time:
  • "I [Jesus] was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24).
  • But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
    Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
    For out of you shall come a Ruler
    Who will shepherd My people Israel (Matt 2:6; Micah 5:2)
The bulleted excerpts above show that Jesus pre-crucifixion ministry was directed toward the Jew. Any service to Gentiles during this time was an exception to the rule. In addition, we know that Jesus' pre-crucifixion works were for the benefit of Gentiles as explained in Acts 15:16-17 and elsewhere as previously mentioned.

To demonstrate the Jew-first-then-Gentile perspective permeating throughout Scripture, I encourage you to research the places in Scripture where you find the concept "to the Jew first, then the Gentile" expressed. It's quite fascinating! Here is one in Romans 1:16:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.​

So, when it comes to the Gospel, it is "for the Jew first and also for the Greek"!

In addition, the Acts 15:16-17 passage is quite telling. God declares that He will do a work among the Jews for the benefit of the Gentiles:

I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David …. so that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even the Gentiles who are called by My name​

Chester, do you have any further insights on this topic? Thanks in advance.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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1 Cor 1:23
This portion of text doesn’t addresses Isaiah’s curse.

If the Greeks aren't under the "curse" in Isaiah then how come Christ Crucified is foolishness to them?
Does a person have to be under a curse to find a message to be foolish? I am not convinced that being under a curse is a prerequisite for finding things to be foolish. Nonetheless, the answer to your question is in 1 Cor 1:18, “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”.

Romans 1:20-25
This portion of text doesn’t address Isaiah’s curse. Instead it deals with God revealing Himself through nature and the implications for humans in general, even though I’m under the impression Paul had Jews in mind and not so much humans in general; but that’s another topic for another time.

Again, we know that the Jews were under a curse via the writings of Isaiah, John, Paul, and Jesus. We also know via the Scriptures that the curse was pronounced on the Jews, and no such pronouncement was made upon Gentiles. In addition, we learn from the Scriptures that there was a significant difference between the way the cursed Jews responded to the Gospel and the way the non-cursed Gentiles responded to the Gospel. So, again, the Scriptures make a distinction between Jew and Gentile in how they'll respond to the Gospel, and this distinction is based upon Isaiah's curse. Neither of the passages you cited address Isaiah's curse and its impact on the Jews.
I was just following your line of thought that Isaiah was a curse to Jews.

I disagree and think Isaiah is general statement about the condition of ALL mankind before coming to Christ.

That is why 1 Corinthians 1:23 is especially pertinent.

If BOTH Jew and Gentile have problems with the Wisdom of Christ according to their carnal understanding then we can say that the words of Isaiah apply to both Jew and Gentile.

If you can't see that then it is because you don't want to see it. Which is fine. You don't have to if you don't want to.
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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Absolutely. Saving faith is NOT a gift, but it is GENERATED through (1) the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit on the sinner. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Peter calls the Gospel the Word of God, and tells us that it is the seed of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

If saving faith were a gift, it would be give to all without exception. Why? Because God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4).
I agree with you on basically everything...
But Ephesians 2:8 does say that there is a gift involved,,,and it's commonly accepted that the gift is faith.

Not in the sense that God just gift's it to anyone....
but in the sense that we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.....

We are SAVED by faith....
Salvation is free. This would be justification...
It's not something we could work for or gain...faith alone brings to salvation, and thus it's a gift.

I think you'd agree?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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I guess that you have to be pretty smart to receive a doctorate in Arminianism.
Well it definitly seems to be the case that there are far more calvinists walking around then Arminians and they have described their 5 pillars more clearly... :LOL: .. Seems that the calvinists obsession with Arminians is unwarranted.. They think they are debating arminians every day and it seems they are not..

Who can find a legendary arminian Dodo bird :giggle:
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Absolutely. Saving faith is NOT a gift, but it is GENERATED through (1) the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit on the sinner. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Peter calls the Gospel the Word of God, and tells us that it is the seed of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

If saving faith were a gift, it would be give to all without exception. Why? Because God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4).

Bless your heart Nehemiah, someone bold enough to proclaim the truth against all the prevailing falsehoods that abound to twist and turn scripture against God. :):):)

Amen and Amen!!


I have a good friend who studied Koine Greek at a Greek university (to take an authentic deep dive not really available at seminary in North America like so many like to proclaim)...he tells me that in Ephesians 8:2 salvation is solely the gift and that this have been long preverted by Augustine if not before.
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism. The Arminian five points are

  • Human Free Will--This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
  • Conditional Election--God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
  • Universal Atonement--The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
  • Resistable Grace--The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
  • Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.
source: https://carm.org/dictionary-five-points-arminianism (sometimes carm is good!)
Well i disagree with universalism so point 3 is a No No for me..

I have no trouble with the other 4..
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I agree with you on basically everything...
But Ephesians 2:8 does say that there is a gift involved,,,and it's commonly accepted that the gift is faith.

Not in the sense that God just gift's it to anyone....
but in the sense that we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.....

We are SAVED by faith....
Salvation is free. This would be justification...
It's not something we could work for or gain...faith alone brings to salvation, and thus it's a gift.

I think you'd agree?
Commonly wrongly accepted.:(
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Well it definitly seems to be the case that there are far more calvinists walking around then Arminians and they have described their 5 pillars more clearly... :LOL: .. Seems that the calvinists obsession with Arminians is unwarranted.. They think they are debating arminians every day and it seems they are not..

Who can find a legendary arminian Dodo bird :giggle:
Yet we see people debating calvin far too much, They debate so fearcely they will misunderstand what other people are saying, because they are reading from a calvinist slant. And all this does is cause division and misunderstanding. And makes us all look bad.

Not all calvinist go around trying to debate arminians. They too understand in order to have a proper discusion, we have to understand what the person is saying, not put them under some doctrinal blueprint that if they believe this THEY MUST be this 9arinian), which means they MUST believe all these other points also. Which is what is the MAJOR cause if contention in christian chat since i have been here (these discussion do nto happen in the real world. And I have never witnessed them in other christian chat formats)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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But Ephesians 2:8 does say that there is a gift involved,,,and it's commonly accepted that the gift is faith.
Kindly compare this with Romans 6:23. The gift is ETERNAL LIFE (which is salvation).

God wants all men to hear the Gospel and believe the Gospel. And that is the basis of saving faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Please read and study Romans 10 in full.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Kindly compare this with Romans 6:23. The gift is ETERNAL LIFE (which is salvation).

God wants all men to hear the Gospel and believe the Gospel. And that is the basis of saving faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Please read and study Romans 10 in full.
What makes you think I haven't?
There's another guy on here that treats me like this.
Is it because I'm a girl??? The way I talk?
Be nice!
thLJZQ2NCK.jpg

Yes,,, it says the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ.
My belief has to do with Ephesians 2:8-9
Also, salvation is obtained at the end....we could know now we are saved...but we receive it at the end...
This is why it is hoped for.

I need scripture and have no time now.
I will check it out again...
Later.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Kindly compare this with Romans 6:23. The gift is ETERNAL LIFE (which is salvation).

God wants all men to hear the Gospel and believe the Gospel. And that is the basis of saving faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Please read and study Romans 10 in full.
The gift is eternal faith. It as it is written is in respect to the one author and finisher of our new born again spirits. A person cannot believe God unless God first gives the gift to hear what he is saying to the churches. We are born with "no faith" that could be used believe God. Again God must create new ears see to see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.. His word is a lamb unto our feet .

Isaiah 29:18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The gift is eternal faith. It as it is written is in respect to the one author and finisher of our new born again spirits. A person cannot believe God unless God first gives the gift to hear what he is saying to the churches. We are born with "no faith" that could be used believe God. Again God must create new ears see to see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.. His word is a lamb unto our feet .

Isaiah 29:18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
I think this is pushing a little far

The gift of faith is not a gift as to you will have faith, while your nieghbor will not have faith, because I refuse to give it to him

The gift is the availability to have faith at all. The gospel is the gift. If not for the gospel. We could have faith in God all day long, we would still be left dead, because God did not provide a way.
 
Feb 27, 2019
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I was just following your line of thought that Isaiah was a curse to Jews.

I disagree and think Isaiah is general statement about the condition of ALL mankind before coming to Christ.

That is why 1 Corinthians 1:23 is especially pertinent.

If BOTH Jew and Gentile have problems with the Wisdom of Christ according to their carnal understanding then we can say that the words of Isaiah apply to both Jew and Gentile.

If you can't see that then it is because you don't want to see it. Which is fine. You don't have to if you don't want to.
Hi, Grandpa -

I understand where you are coming from. You identified 1 Corinthians 1:23 as a text which demonstrates the Gospel message to be a stumbling block (or, an offense) to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks (or, Gentiles). And as a consequence, you found Isaiah’s curse to be applicable to both Jews and Gentiles.

I would agree with your assessment had Isaiah’s curse mentioned two things:
  • Jews being led by God to seek after signs toward God
  • Gentiles being led by God to seek wisdom toward God
But, the curse speaks only to Jews and is explicit about the what the curse will do to them: it will make them dumb to the Gospel. Isaiah, Jesus, John, and Paul referred to the curse when talking about Jews, and Paul did so within the context of mentioning Gentiles without attributing the result of the curse to the Gentiles. As a result, the curse cannot be a general statement about the condition of all mankind. This is the inconsistency in your assessment that makes it a problematic explanation.

However, your assessment does have significant merit in this discussion, because it demonstrates that there was another layer of resistance (or, another wall to climb over) for the Jews to overcome in addition to the curse. The Jews’ propensity to look for miraculous signs made it difficult for them to accept a Gospel message centered on crucifixion (Christ crucified). And even if they didn’t have this propensity, they had the curse on their understanding that only God could break through election. Moreover, your assessment demonstrates there was a layer of resistance for Greeks to get over: their propensity to use wisdom as a vehicle toward understanding God.

So, this isn’t about me not seeing something. Again, I understand your position. I think what you’ve uncovered is valuable in furthering my understanding of what was going on at the time the Lord was walking on the planet. But, in terms of equating the Jewish propensity to seek miraculous signs with the curse, I cannot agree with you because of the inconsistencies mentioned above.
 

Lanolin

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Dec 15, 2018
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Jolie and aniston all over agin, both have their reasons for being with Pitt. And I believe both dont talk to each other, who knows they could even be friends.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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What makes you think I haven't?
There's another guy on here that treats me like this. Is it because I'm a girl??? The way I talk? Be nice!
That was not meant to offend but to put the emphasis on how faith is generated. And since you say you have studied Romans 10, it should be crystal clear that the preaching of the Gospel is meant to generate faith.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The gift is eternal faith.
That is not found in Scripture. Here is what we read:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

ROMANS 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE = IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS = ETERNAL LIFE
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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That was not meant to offend but to put the emphasis on how faith is generated. And since you say you have studied Romans 10, it should be crystal clear that the preaching of the Gospel is meant to generate faith.
That goes for all of the N.T., not only Romans.

Well, I read a few bibles for Ephesians 2:8-9, and then some commentaries that mention Greek and different scholars.....I don't find a consensus for what the gift is. In different passages, different greek words are used. Some say faith is the gift and some say salvation is the gift,,,the entire salvation "package": grace, faith, salvation...because a word there is in the Greek.

It would take serious study and I can't do that right now.
Comparing words...verses...etc.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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The gift is eternal faith. It as it is written is in respect to the one author and finisher of our new born again spirits. A person cannot believe God unless God first gives the gift to hear what he is saying to the churches. We are born with "no faith" that could be used believe God. Again God must create new ears see to see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.. His word is a lamb unto our feet .

Isaiah 29:18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
I do believe you have soteriology backwards....

John 3:16
States that whoever believes will be saved.
Not that one will be saved and then will believe.

Acts 16:30-31
The jailer is told to believe in the Lord and he will be saved.
Not he will be saved and then believe in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9
We have been saved THROUGH faith....the faith comes first.
Not we have been saved and then receive faith.


What scripture says we are saved first (believe first)
and then receive faith?