Can you be wrong about everything except Jesus is Lord and be saved?

[VW]

For our walk, for our internal life we should not. For the sake of the weak, the vulnerable, we must.

I understand the sentiment, but in truth, aren't we all weak and vulnerable? I see it as looking at the darkness to insure that we are in the light. Kinda of backwards. Keeping out the darkness does not bring light. Walking in the light keeps out the darkness. It is like heat and cold. Cold is the absence of heat, just as darkness is the absence of light. We dispel darkness with light.

Something about letting our light shine, and not hiding it under a basket.

Blessings brother,
vic

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I understand the sentiment, but in truth, aren't we all weak and vulnerable? I see it as looking at the darkness to insure that we are in the light. Kinda of backwards. Keeping out the darkness does not bring light. Walking in the light keeps out the darkness. It is like heat and cold. Cold is the absence of heat, just as darkness is the absence of light. We dispel darkness with light.

Something about letting our light shine, and not hiding it under a basket.

Blessings brother,
vic

If you look at the "what not to believe" because you are afraid of your own weakness, then you are not qualified to do so. We only look at what you cannot believe to protect the weak and vulnerable. You are made strong by looking at what to believe.

 

[VW]

If you look at the "what not to believe" because you are afraid of your own weakness, then you are not qualified to do so. We only look at what you cannot believe to protect the weak and vulnerable. You are made strong by looking at what to believe.

Okay, sure.

Blessings,
vic

 

[thefightinglamb]

I think I have been wrong about my #13 to begin with.

13--that illegal drugs are okay, or permissible in any way. If you do them I quickly assume you are not Christian.

I have gone to a church where somebody has told me that 'he is not against those who use drugs' and I did'nt conclude he was not Christian.

What I was trying to say is I don't believe those that believe that illegal drugs are okay and actually do them take Christianity seriously and thus I do not believe they are Christian.

But if you simply think 'perhaps illegal drugs are okay' yet your personal life contradicts your own belief because you do not do illegal drugs nor desire to, then I think that though mixed up, you probably are a Christian with a really wrong belief.

Just wanted to correct myself,

God bless
tony

 

[SantoSubito]

For me to consider someone a Christian they must affirm the Nicene creed.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

For me to consider someone a Christian they must affirm the Nicene creed.

While I do not have any problem with the creed, how does this fit in with your view on infant baptism? You quoted scripture that said you must be baptized to be saved, but if you baptize infant to insure that they will get into heaven, but you also say that a person must fully understand this set of basic doctrines, than you work at cross purposes. An infant cannot subscribe to the Nicene creed because they do not yet have the means to understand it?

 

[SantoSubito]

While I do not have any problem with the creed, how does this fit in with your view on infant baptism? You quoted scripture that said you must be baptized to be saved, but if you baptize infant to insure that they will get into heaven, but you also say that a person must fully understand this set of basic doctrines, than you work at cross purposes. An infant cannot subscribe to the Nicene creed because they do not yet have the means to understand it?

The creed is a smell test for orthodoxy. When an infant is baptized they are saved and whether they have the ability to understand the creed or not they are agreeing to it by being baptized into the church. You could say that the act of them being baptized automatically subscribes them to the creed and the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

The creed is a smell test for orthodoxy. When an infant is baptized they are saved and whether they have the ability to understand the creed or not they are agreeing to it by being baptized into the church. You could say that the act of them being baptized automatically subscribes them to the creed and the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

And if that child, when he or she grows, does not believe in the Nicene creed, what is their spiritual state then, in your opinion?
Also, what if you meet someone who is an agnostic. You share your faith with them and the say that they want to convert. Are they saved then or only after they are baptized and understand the creed?

 

[SantoSubito]

And if that child, when he or she grows, does not believe in the Nicene creed, what is their spiritual state then, in your opinion?

This is what confirmation is for. During confirmation the basic beliefs of the church are thoroughly explained and then the child or teen is asked to "confirm" (hence the name) that they believe in the teachings of the church. If the child refuses to confirm belief in the creed and the beliefs of the Catholic church they are then in a spiritual state which would condemn them to hell. Then from that day forward they are usually denied communion until they agree to the teachings of the Church.

Also, what if you meet someone who is an agnostic. You share your faith with them and the say that they want to convert. Are they saved then or only after they are baptized and understand the creed?

It's kind of a non-issue. Prior to being baptized potential converts must take RCIA classes which explain the creeds and the basic beliefs of the Catholic church. Additionally as the candidate is standing in the baptismal pool they are asked these questions before they are baptized.

P. Do you renounce Satan?

Answer: We do.

P. And all his works?

Answer: We do.

P. And all his pomps?

A. We do.

P. Do you believe that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men?

A: We do.

P. Do you believe that this our God and Father is a just judge, Who rewards the good and punishes the wicked?

A. We do.

P. Do you believe that in one God there are three Divine Persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost?

A. We do.

P. Do you believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, was made man, was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into hell, and on the third day rose aain from the dead, ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, and from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead?

A. We do.

P. Do you believe that the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, God the Holy Ghost, enables us to live and accomplish what is right and just, and that without His grace no one can be saved?

A. We do.

P. Do you believe in and openly profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

A. We do.

P. If you have firmly resolved to live in accordance with the holy doctrine of Christ, ever to remain faithful to His Church, to avoid sin, to love God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as yourself, declare now this your will, and promise in the presence of the All-seeing God, before your parents, teachers, and the whole congregration.

A. This we have firmly resolved and do no solemnly promise in the presence of the All-seeing God, our Lord and Savior, before our parents, pastor, teachers, and the whole congregation.

These vows which the candidates take basically state the same things as the creed.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

This is what confirmation is for. During confirmation the basic beliefs of the church are thoroughly explained and then the child or teen is asked to "confirm" (hence the name) that they believe in the teachings of the church. If the child refuses to confirm belief in the creed and the beliefs of the Catholic church they are then in a spiritual state which would condemn them to hell. Then from that day forward they are usually denied communion until they agree to the teachings of the Church.
Then the baptism is only efficient until they are able to accept or reject? What about Protestant children and the heathen children? What about miscarriages. If they die before they can understand enough to reject the teachings of the church, do they go to heaven?




It's kind of a non-issue. Prior to being baptized potential converts must take RCIA classes which explain the creeds and the basic beliefs of the Catholic church. Additionally as the candidate is standing in the baptismal pool they are asked these questions before they are baptized.
So for a non-Catholic, is there any possibility of a death-bed conversion? Is it possible without a priest to give last rites for a Protestant or a heathen to accept the faith of the Roman Catholic Church and be received into heaven?



These vows which the candidates take basically state the same things as the creed.

What place do you give to faith in this system? Do you feel that you have a relationship with God?

 

[SantoSubito]

What place do you give to faith in this system? Do you feel that you have a relationship with God?

Faith is everywhere in the sacraments, and yes of course i feel i have a relationship with God.

Then the baptism is only efficient until they are able to accept or reject?

No their baptism was efficient when they were baptized all their sins up until that point were remitted and original sin was removed. Any mortal sin they commit after baptism must be confessed in the sacrament of penance.

What about Protestant children

Protestants as long as they use the Trinitarian formula have a valid baptism. Baptism is one of two sacraments that you do not need a priest to administer.

and the heathen children?

We don't know. They may go to heaven or they may go to hell but it is impossible for us to know. We simply have to entrust them to God's mercy

What about miscarriages. If they die before they can understand enough to reject the teachings of the church, do they go to heaven?

They also are entrusted to God's mercy, and like i said above it is impossible for us to know their fate.

So for a non-Catholic, is there any possibility of a death-bed conversion?

Yes, of course there is.

Is it possible without a priest to give last rites for a Protestant or a heathen to accept the faith of the Roman Catholic Church and be received into heaven?

By Last Rites i'm assuming you mean the sacrament of Extreme Unction? If so no it is not possible to administer that sacrament without a validly ordained priest. Protestants can receive the sacrament of Extreme Unction if they so desire on their death bed, but only from a priest. Heathens would be baptized on their death bed instead of receiving the sacrament of Extreme Unction. Now I'm going to go ahead and state that the Catholic church does not teach that Protestants are barred from heaven.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Faith is everywhere in the sacraments, and yes of course i feel i have a relationship with God.
Do you believe that the sacraments must be accepted in faith to be effectacious? How do you express the relational part of your faith?



No their baptism was efficient when they were baptized all their sins up until that point were remitted and original sin was removed. Any mortal sin they commit after baptism must be confessed in the sacrament of penance.
So, if a Catholic child refuses confirmation, are they still saved?


Protestants as long as they use the Trinitarian formula have a valid baptism. Baptism is one of two sacraments that you do not need a priest to administer.
Many Protestants don't practice child baptism.


We don't know. They may go to heaven or they may go to hell but it is impossible for us to know. We simply have to entrust them to God's mercy
Do you have anything akin to "age of accountability"?


They also are entrusted to God's mercy, and like i said above it is impossible for us to know their fate.


Yes, of course there is.
So, can a person be saved without baptism?



By Last Rites i'm assuming you mean the sacrament of Extreme Unction? If so no it is not possible to administer that sacrament without a validly ordained priest. Protestants can receive the sacrament of Extreme Unction if they so desire on their death bed, but only from a priest. Heathens would be baptized on their death bed instead of receiving the sacrament of Extreme Unction. Now I'm going to go ahead and state that the Catholic church does not teach that Protestants are barred from heaven.

Thank you for your patience in answering these questions.

 

[SantoSubito]

Thank you for your patience in answering these questions.

No problem since i live in a Baptist majority area i have many friends in high school who ask me these questions all the time.

Do you believe that the sacraments must be accepted in faith to be effectacious?

Yes and no. If you don't believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ it isn't going to impart as much Grace as it could if you believed that it was.

How do you express the relational part of your faith?

Really thats down to the individual Catholic, and for the most part your average Catholic will do the same things your average Protestant does. Except of course a Catholic will invoke the Saints.

So, if a Catholic child refuses confirmation, are they still saved?

Rejecting confirmation is considered blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, because one of the many beliefs the child is rejecting when rejecting confirmation is the Trinity. So if a child rejects confirmation they are considered to be in a state mortal sin until they come back to the Church through the sacrament of penance. So in short no if a child rejects confirmation they are not saved (no longer saved is more exact).

Do you have anything akin to "age of accountability"?

Yes we do, but we do not know if God will accept souls that still have the stain of original sin.

Many Protestants don't practice child baptism.

I believe that if a Protestant child died before baptism they would fall under "baptism of desire". Meaning that God accepts their souls on the basis that had they had the opportunity they would have been baptized.

 

[lee]

The scripture says to believe on the Lord jesus Christ and be saved. jesus is the word, the Word is jesus, the Bible is the Word of God, and the Word of God is Jesus and Him crucified. One cannot believe and not believe the Word, He is, the Word made flesh..Its as simple as that. Whats there to dabate ?

 

[serpentslayer]

FightingLamb,
For the newly saved, it is enough to only believe that Jesus is the Christ; but, for those
who have been subjected to the Word of GOD through study and church are held
accountable to it. Here is where most christians fail in the responsibllity to diligently
study the scriptures to prove, and to be able to prove, what is the truth about all
matters pertaining to life in general, but holiness inparticular. As it is written,

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:6

It is evident by your llstings that you know much about what is the TRUTH.
You talk of things which 'christians' should know and believe as fact; but, one can only
know these things once one has accepted the Word of GOD (Bible) as the TRUTH,
which one does after being convicted and saved by the Holy Spirit. Since faith comes
by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD (preacher, teacher), and, since it is
the Holy Spirit which draws all men to Christ and teaches (reveals) to them all Truths
(by way of the scriptures, 2Tim3:15-17), then, if we truly seek Him (TRUTH), we will
find HIM: it is HIS PROMISE.

But is is also evident by your listings, and others as well, that you are tending to go
back under the LAW, missing the Spirit of the Law, which is LOVE. You judge what is
right and wrong in others by your beliefs, and assess their spirituality, but you make
no mention of compassion or grief. Who of 'US' was not, or still is, one of 'them'.
Since the HOLY SPIRIT has revealed much to you, Live it, and use it to judge yourself.
On all others have compassion, except the serpents, those who profess but pervert the
truth, and deceive those who do not diligently seek the TRUTH by the WORD (Bible).

 

[charisenexcelcis]

No problem since i live in a Baptist majority area i have many friends in high school who ask me these questions all the time.


Yes and no. If you don't believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ it isn't going to impart as much Grace as it could if you believed that it was.


Really thats down to the individual Catholic, and for the most part your average Catholic will do the same things your average Protestant does. Except of course a Catholic will invoke the Saints.


Rejecting confirmation is considered blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, because one of the many beliefs the child is rejecting when rejecting confirmation is the Trinity. So if a child rejects confirmation they are considered to be in a state mortal sin until they come back to the Church through the sacrament of penance. So in short no if a child rejects confirmation they are not saved (no longer saved is more exact).


Yes we do, but we do not know if God will accept souls that still have the stain of original sin.


I believe that if a Protestant child died before baptism they would fall under "baptism of desire". Meaning that God accepts their souls on the basis that had they had the opportunity they would have been baptized.

I disagree with many of your beliefs. I believe in salvation by faith. I believe that at the time of salvation, one might know very little about God. I beleive that one can go through the rite of baptism without coming into the faith and that one can be in the faith without being baptized in water. I believe that there is a time of innocence during which any person is covered by God's grace. I belief that when that state of innocence ceases varies from person to person. I believe that our faith is a relational faith. I believe that a healthy believer will grow in his knowledge of the Lord. I believe that the traditions of the church are helpful when scripture is not clear, but that where scripture is clear, there is no need for revision based upon the traditions of the church. Thank you for sharing your point of view.

 

[pickles]

This is a difficult question to answer.
My first reaction is that as Jesus said , I am the way , the truth and the light. No one can come to the Father but by me.
This question also calls to judge, yet we are also called to correct our brothers and sisters in Jesus.
Because I do not feel knowladge able enough to trully answer this question scripturally, I can only answer from what I do know.
I believe that all who believe in Jesus Christ is savior and Lord are saved, but that when one is believing a questionable teaching, that it will make one's walk far more difficult and filled with that which can cause one to trip, to loose sight of the goal.
Living in a corrupted teaching will make the walk far more difficult.
God will judge the heart, He will also judge those harshly that mislead.
I only know that we are called to witness to the truth in Jesus, it seems that it is far easyer to witness to the truth, than to spend time teaching about all the lies.
In Jesus, God bless.
pickles

 

[VW]

This is a difficult question to answer.
My first reaction is that as Jesus said , I am the way , the truth and the light. No one can come to the Father but by me.
This question also calls to judge, yet we are also called to correct our brothers and sisters in Jesus.
Because I do not feel knowladge able enough to trully answer this question scripturally, I can only answer from what I do know.
I believe that all who believe in Jesus Christ is savior and Lord are saved, but that when one is believing a questionable teaching, that it will make one's walk far more difficult and filled with that which can cause one to trip, to loose sight of the goal.
Living in a corrupted teaching will make the walk far more difficult.
God will judge the heart, He will also judge those harshly that mislead.
I only know that we are called to witness to the truth in Jesus, it seems that it is far easyer to witness to the truth, than to spend time teaching about all the lies.
In Jesus, God bless.
pickles

I think that rather than saying that false teachings will make one's life more difficult but will make it much more difficult to fellowship with Jesus, and walk in the fullness of the love of God. Anything which gets in the way of the simplicity of devotion in love to Jesus is in my opinion something that needs to be discarded, quickly.

Blessings in Christ sister,
Vic

 

[pickles]

I think that rather than saying that false teachings will make one's life more difficult but will make it much more difficult to fellowship with Jesus, and walk in the fullness of the love of God. Anything which gets in the way of the simplicity of devotion in love to Jesus is in my opinion something that needs to be discarded, quickly.

Blessings in Christ sister,
Vic

I agree vic, thats why I said walk, not life.
Our walk is with Jesus.
In Jesus, God bless you vic.
pickles

 

[VW]

I agree vic, thats why I said walk, not life.
Our walk is with Jesus.
In Jesus, God bless you vic.
pickles

Sorry, I was trying to agree without disagreeing. I know so many who believe in Him, but have no inkling of the fellowship with Jesus that is possible. This is what saddens me most of all about normal church teachings, because emphasis is most often placed on rules, how one is to act in all respects, and little or no teaching is given about walking in the Spirit, about walking in Jesus Christ.

I apologize for my error in reading your post.
In His love,
Vic