Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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Jun 24, 2010
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Why should it be so hard to believe that Mary was sinless if Jesus also was sinless? I can understand how the Catholics could believe in that, being that I am an Eastern Orthodox, and we believe that Mary was almost completely free of sin but not quite.

It does make some sense though. If Jesus was sinless isn't it logical to believe that Mary was also sinless or almost free from sin? This is not to take the power and honor away from Jesus, we all know Jesus is our Savior and Lord, but this is just to see things for the way they are.
There are those on these forums that believe that we are all born without sin yet we learn sin through being subject to the lusts of the flesh. Yet the scriptures teach that we are all conceived in sin and that sin nature is transferred through the man and not the woman.

How the Sin Nature is Handed Down - Genetically Speaking
Excerpt from an article

by Ken Brown


The physical mechanics of the genetic perpetuation of the sin nature in man can be found in a few good embryology textbooks, though it is not generally understood by the world how they apply to this specific spiritual truth. For the purposes of growth, repair and replenishment body cells divide by a process called mitosis. In mitosis one cell with 46 chromosomes divides into two with each new cell then identical to the original, each having 46 chromosomes. However, in reproductive cells, a more specialized process called meiosis produces the male sperm and the female ovum. In meiosis one cell with 46 chromosomes divides into two cells, but each new cell contains only 23 chromosomes. Are you still awake? You might want to get up and walk around a little or stretch, maybe throw a little cold water on your face.

With the male, one cell with 46 chromosomes divides into two cells having 23 chromosomes each. Then both of these new cells with 23 chromosomes each divide again into two more cells, again with 23 chromosomes. The result is that from one original cell with 46 chromosomes come four mature sperm cells with 23 chromosomes each. So far, so good. Now it gets interesting.

In the female the process of meiosis is different. It has two stages like male meiosis. But, while meiosis in the male produces four sperm cells, meiosis in the female produces only one ovum or egg. This is called oogenesis. Here, one cell with 46 chromosomes divides into two cells with 23 chromosomes each. But, only one cell remains intact, the other disintegrates. The surviving cell with 23 chromosomes then divides again into two new cells with 23 chromosomes each. Again one cell remains and the other disintegrates

Now we get down to the really pertinent part of this whole (and I hope not too confusing) discussion. In each cell that disintegrates cellular material called polar bodies concentrate or polarize themselves on one side of the cell before the division takes place. After the cell divides, the one with the concentration of polar bodies is the one that disintegrates. When the two stages of division in oogenesis are completed, the one ovum produced by this process is completely free of polar bodies.

This process is God's ingenious way of cleansing the female ovum of the contamination of the sin nature that is a part of every other cell that makes up the human body, whether male or female. From this we must draw several conclusions. The first is what we have already alluded to earlier in the fact that scripture tells us that we are all possessors of Adam's sin. That it is a part of our physical makeup and passed on from generation to generation by the man starting with Adam is clear when you consider the difference illustrated by the male and female reproductive systems. In the male, all four mature sperm cells produced contain the exact same makeup, therefore, the same contamination as the original, contamination that is immediately passed on to the uncontaminated female ovum at conception!!! The exclamation points are to get your attention and let you know I'm getting excited about this, because I know where it's leading.

The second thing is that all this boring talk about cells, chromosomes and polar bodies illustrates God's provision to fulfill His promise of the coming of the Christ through the "seed of the woman" in Genesis 3:15. In oogenesis God provided the way for the Son of Man to enter the world through a physical birth with a human mother and be born free of the contamination of the sin nature, yet in a physical body. Make no mistake about this, in Mary a real conception took place, but no man was involved. It was the Holy Spirit that made it possible (Matthew 1:20, Luke 1:34, 35) for the Lord to be born a perfect, sinless man, absent Adam's sin, the only One qualified to go to the cross as our substitute. Mary had a sin nature like everyone else. But, because she was a woman, she could not transmit it to her progeny. After Christ was born she delivered six other children by her husband Joseph through normal procreation. All six were born spiritually dead with a sin nature passed on to them by their father.

At this juncture I should probably just move on. But I can't pass up the opportunity to tear down a few religious concepts. The idea that Jesus' sinless perfection is somehow connected to Mary's virginity is ludicrous at best. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The idea that God would have to depend on human merit to accomplish His plan is nothing more than religious arrogance and ignorance. Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior, not unlike any other woman who ever lived. She was condemned as soon as she drew her first breath, just like everyone else. And while I have no intention of diminishing her special place in history and the favor God showed her, I can't elevate her to a prominence that exceeds even the Lord Himself as some do.

The fact is her virginity was only a sign, a signal to all who awaited the coming of the Holy One (Isaiah 7:14). If it had not been for the prophecy requiring the mother of the Lord to be a virgin, this provision of God would have allowed Him to be born to any woman at any time providing she had a healthy, functioning reproductive system to produce the pure egg. And if there can be any question regarding what God thinks about depending on us to help Him carry out His plan, consider Isaiah 64:6, 7.
Because we have all become like one who is defiled and unclean, even our best efforts before God are like filthy rags to Him. We're so frail and here for such a short time and it is our own depravity that carries us like a strong wind far away from God's favor. No one calls Your name and there are none that struggle to embrace You. And so Your face is hidden from us and we are left only to the consuming power of our own sin.
I know there's a sermon here somewhere, but I'll stick to the subject. The KJV uses the term "our righteousnesses" where you see "our best efforts" in the verse above. Both are a reference to self-righteousness (see Philippians 3:9). What follows describes God's attitude towards self-righteousness or human effort. He sees them as "filthy rags". Here, the word translated "filthy" is the Hebrew ed and means, "to set a period (of time)". In the context of the verse it is used to illustrate the woman's monthly menstrual flow. In other words, God considers our self-righteousness to be right up there on the same level of rags used by women to control the flow of blood from their monthly period.

Now you might be wondering why I bring this up at this particular time, so I'll tell you. Remember back when we were talking about oogenesis and how every time a cell would divide, the cell with the polar bodies (the physical contamination of the sin nature present in every cell) would disintegrate? The menstrual period is the means by which the material from these disintegrated cells is sloughed off through a discharge of blood from the uterine wall. Every month the woman discharges a small but significant portion of the sin nature that resides in her body. The illustration in the verse above is simply comparing our best efforts to our own sin. To God there's no difference. No real righteousness exists but His.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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Honestly...Mary was just simply a vessel used for God's glory, not her own. She was a woman who God called to bear the Savior of the world. That's it. She didn't do any of the saving. As I said before, Mary was simply a vessel used for God's glory and His alone. No need to put Mary up on a pedestal for something she has very little to do with. Because honestly....what's Mary got to do with Jesus and His performing miracles, His dying on the cross, His rising again and His ascending to Heaven? What's she got to do with "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in HIM shall not perish..." and the answer is, absolutely nothing.

One thing I WILL say about Mary is...she was blessed to be able carry and bear the Savior of the World.
Yeah, not sure I feel comfortable calling the Mother of God, "simply a vessel"
And it's not like Mary is the one who gently pushed Him to start His earthly ministry early (John 2:1-10). And it's not like she was there from the very beginning of His ministry all the way to the end at the foot of the Cross or anything. (John 19:25).
Gosh, how dare we Catholics honour Mary as if she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), and the "mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43). How dare we look up to her as an example of Christian piety. She was just a vessel after all.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We've been over this before doing penance is not a requisite for receiving forgiveness. The point though is that God always required something from Israel for forgiveness, usually a sacrifice. In the NT the nature of penance (and of forgiveness) is changed because of Christ, penance itself is the outward reality of an interior disposition.
thats funny, according to your church, baptism removes original sin, and the sacrament of penance is required to remove personal sin.,. Both of course require works of men.

For example, my neighbor would most likely forgive me if by some accident I broke one of his windows, but even if he forgave me that does not mean I should not pay for his window.
thats the point, You can't pay for your own sin, if you could Christ would not have had to come. It has been satan's lie from the beginning that we can pay for our own sin. Saying you can pay for your own sin mocks Christ and his death, and is an insult to his character.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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And of course Mary's parents were both sinless, not to mention her grandparents, great grandparentrs, great great.......:rolleyes:.
And the perpetual virginity thing is even more ridiculous. The way they try to explain away Matthew 1:25 is embarrassing. All because they choose to listen to thier church insteads of God's word, the Bible.
Those are but only two of their many heresies.

Tom
Or perhaps, as the Ark of the New Covenant, and as the Mother of God, she was given a special grace.

Or are you saying that Jesus wouldn't honour His mother in a unique way?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Yeah, not sure I feel comfortable calling the Mother of God, "simply a vessel"
And it's not like Mary is the one who gently pushed Him to start His earthly ministry early (John 2:1-10). And it's not like she was there from the very beginning of His ministry all the way to the end at the foot of the Cross or anything. (John 19:25).
Gosh, how dare we Catholics honour Mary as if she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), and the "mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43). How dare we look up to her as an example of Christian piety. She was just a vessel after all.

If she was not a vessel as are all servants of the Most High God, I would like to know exactly what you do think she was? I know she did not "create" Yeshua (Jesus). She did not have a clue as to what His mission was, however she did do things instinctively because she knew she simply did not know, such as at the wedding at Cana. As for the ever virginity of Mary, sorry, even the catholic versions of the Word talk about Joseph not having intimate relations with Mary until after Yeshua was born, then came brothers and sisters. The catholic church may teach catholics otherwise, but the Word of God is plain. At any rate, the question is, if she was not a vessel, what was she according to catholic wisdom¿?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Or perhaps, as the Ark of the New Covenant, and as the Mother of God, she was given a special grace.
What new covenant? People get to heaven the same today as they did in Adam's day. for over 6000 years the gospel has always been the same. God would redeem mankind to himself. Mother of God? God has no mother, he had no beginning. Why do you mock God like this?

Or are you saying that Jesus wouldn't honour His mother in a unique way?
What greater honor could one have than to be a sinner chosen to give birth to the messiah? It get no greater than this!
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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Yeah, not sure I feel comfortable calling the Mother of God, "simply a vessel"
And it's not like Mary is the one who gently pushed Him to start His earthly ministry early (John 2:1-10).
Jesus would have and could have started His ministry without Mary. Just because she pushed Him to start it a bit early means nothing.

And it's not like she was there from the very beginning of His ministry all the way to the end at the foot of the Cross or anything. (John 19:25).
She was WITH him...So? Did she do anything? Did she perform miracles? Because surely she did not HELP Jesus perform miracles. And she went to the foot of the cross...once again, so what? In one way or another, all believers go metaphorically to the "foot of the cross."

Gosh, how dare we Catholics honour Mary as if she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), and the "mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43). How dare we look up to her as an example of Christian piety. She was just a vessel after all.
And Luke 1:28 is about Gabriel talking to Mary, about how she would be carrying and bearing the Savior of the world. It just says she found favor in the eyes of the Lord to do so.

She was just the mother...seriously. You don't see her perform miracles. You don't see people going to her asking her to heal them.

And using her as a intercessory thing...just doesn't make sense.

Jesus wasn't off-limits when He walked ON the Earth, and He's not off limits now OFF the Earth.

She WAS simply just a vessel that God used. As am I. As are you. We are ALL vessels for HIS glory. And HIS glory alone...not Mary's.

What's it say in the Bible? Apart from WHO you can do nothing? Apart from JESUS you can do nothing. Not apart from Mary.

Mary couldn't have conceived the Savior of the World without God.

Seriously think about it. If we took Mary outta the picture post-birth, things still would have gone the same. Jesus would have started His ministry in His good timing, Jesus would still have performed miracles, and He still would have died on the cross and rose again for us.
 
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frankleespeaking

Guest
The whole premise of this battle of Catholics vs Protestants, is their own beliefs about what contains the Whole Truth about God.
The Catholics say the Church does, while on the other hand the Protestants say the Bible does.

My question to the Protestants is if the Bible contains the truth of God, how are you so sure of its authenticity? Catholics and Orthodox (I am Orthodox) teach that it is the Church which gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture and therefore it is the Church which is holds the sole authority of Truth. They say that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), which I believe it to be as well (Orthodox Church that is).

After knowing all of this, what is it that convinces you Protestants that the Bible is the Infallible Word of God? Just because somebody told you so? What then makes this any different than if someone told you the Koran was the Word of God? Many people believe the Koran to be the Word of God just as strongly as we Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God. But how would we know if it really was the Word of God and not a counterfeit?

Catholics and Orthodox do not just blindly believe in what somebody tells us is the Truth. We don't just blindly believe in a holy book of our liking. We hold that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), and therefore we have solid evidence of where the Truth of God is and of the Bible. With the Church, we have ample evidence which backs up the Bible as Truth because the Church made the Bible. The Church is what gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is what selected the 27 books of the NT. Therefore, if you don't trust it you cannot trust the Bible.

Without the Church though, you may as well believe in whatever 'holy' book you come across, or whatever anyone else teaches (A Muslim or a Buddhist) since you since you don't have a pillar of truth to walk on. Go ahead, pick up a Koran or any other holy book, they're all the same right? So where is the proof that one of them is the true Word of God? All of them speak the same thing, "pick me, I am the Truth".

Thats why its important to be filled with the Holy Spirit, because He will lead you into all truth. This is the correct Guide to follow.

It just so happens that this same Holy Spirit tells me the bible is His Word and the koran is not, once your filled with the Holy Spirit you will see exactly what I'm talking about, The whole new testiment is about receiving the Holy Spirit as your Guide, nobody had bibles to carry around in the early church, they were dependent on the Holy Spirit to lead them
 
Dec 19, 2009
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Uh yes, but she was also with child BEFORE she married -whilst STILL a 'virgin' (in the sense that she never slept with a man) and yet she was pregnant Jesus. What is your point?
I was agreeing with RoboOp, only I worded it differently. Mary did not sleep with a man until after she had Jesus, as you and RoboOp have stated.
 
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frankleespeaking

Guest
Great points, stillwaters!

You overlooked one (from your quotes). She was also referred to as our Advocate (even capitalized). Another role of Jesus! (1 John 2:1).

Not to mention, they actually believe and teach that Mary was absolutely sinless, just like Jesus!!! (Did anybody hear that???) :)



Yes jb I know some Catholics are saved -- I have some Catholic friends here who are saved IN SPITE OF the Catholic Church -- they're the ones who don't believe and go along with all the Mary stuff (e.g., they absolutely don't pray to Mary or ask her to "interceded" for them) and other heresy. (So actually that means they're not truly "Catholic".)

and again we see Christ calling HIS PEOPLE to come out of her, these are the good Catholic people that don't follow all the false doctrines and teachings, why they stay is really the mystery when they see plainly the error she has historically displayed over the years
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
and again we see Christ calling HIS PEOPLE to come out of her, these are the good Catholic people that don't follow all the false doctrines and teachings, why they stay is really the mystery when they see plainly the error she has historically displayed over the years
It is called fear. when you are programed as much as the roman catholics program their people, even when you come to saving truth, you are still scared to death to leave your church. I know many who are afraid of being outcast by their families and friends if they even speak against the church, imagine if they left!! It is almost like a person who is an islamic family who converts to Christianity. They are outcast (sometimes killed) for leaving their faith. For many years the roman church would do the same, by executing what they called "heretics" today they are more moral and not killing anyone, but the emotional strain can be prety rough!
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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It is called fear. when you are programed as much as the roman catholics program their people, even when you come to saving truth, you are still scared to death to leave your church. I know many who are afraid of being outcast by their families and friends if they even speak against the church, imagine if they left!! It is almost like a person who is an islamic family who converts to Christianity. They are outcast (sometimes killed) for leaving their faith. For many years the roman church would do the same, by executing what they called "heretics" today they are more moral and not killing anyone, but the emotional strain can be prety rough!
Oh my! :eek: Dang...I didn't think people were THAT rough when it came to the Catholic church...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh my! :eek: Dang...I didn't think people were THAT rough when it came to the Catholic church...

You would be suprised, although I know they will deny it. I have personally witnessed it.
 
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rainacorn

Guest
My Catholic mother was divorced 20+ years ago and she still has emotional breakdowns when you bring up the subject of Church.

When her husband left her, the church treated her like a leper. The priest suggested she try and get an annulment so God will forgive her, even though that would effectively make all of her children bastards. When she refused, they 'kindly' suggested she find a new church.

She's no longer a church-goer because she can't set foot in one without bawling.

Maybe it's not official Catholic policy to treat people that way, but that's the culture they have created.

The mental and emotional damage my mother has suffered by being raised Catholic is deplorable. From the time she was a small child right up to present day, they have an evil grip on her and indescribable power over her. We are trying to teach her about the love of Jesus and what the Bible says, but we might as well be speaking Chinese. It's absolutely foreign to her.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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Thats why its important to be filled with the Holy Spirit, because He will lead you into all truth. This is the correct Guide to follow.

It just so happens that this same Holy Spirit tells me the bible is His Word and the koran is not, once your filled with the Holy Spirit you will see exactly what I'm talking about, The whole new testiment is about receiving the Holy Spirit as your Guide, nobody had bibles to carry around in the early church, they were dependent on the Holy Spirit to lead them
And the Holy Spirit led them to believe everything the Catholic Church teaches today. As you yourself pointed out,
nobody had bibles to carry around in the early church
The Early Church didn't have Bibles as we know them, they relied on hearing the word of God, and on Holy Tradition. We are fortunate in this age of technology to have easy access to the records of the Early Christians, and you'll note that when you study them, you see things like a belief in the Eucharist as the LITERAL Body and Blood of Jesus, the belief in the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary, asking saints in heaven to pray for them, infant baptism, and the idea that baptism isn't just symbolic but truly salvic.

The Holy Spirit will guide and protect Christ's Church, it continues to do so, despite the failings of men throughout history. And by looking at the rich resources we have left to us by our earliest forefathers in the Christian faith, we can compare what they believed to what current churches teach as well. The Catholic Church has nothing to fear from comparing her teachings to the teachings of the Apostles and the earliest Christians.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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and again we see Christ calling HIS PEOPLE to come out of her, these are the good Catholic people that don't follow all the false doctrines and teachings, why they stay is really the mystery when they see plainly the error she has historically displayed over the years
There are no false doctrines in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit protects her as was promised by Christ Himself. It's a shame that the devil has managed to turn so many people who love Jesus against Christ's church.
 
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frankleespeaking

Guest
It is called fear. when you are programed as much as the roman catholics program their people, even when you come to saving truth, you are still scared to death to leave your church. I know many who are afraid of being outcast by their families and friends if they even speak against the church, imagine if they left!! It is almost like a person who is an islamic family who converts to Christianity. They are outcast (sometimes killed) for leaving their faith. For many years the roman church would do the same, by executing what they called "heretics" today they are more moral and not killing anyone, but the emotional strain can be prety rough!

I would say the killing has had only a reprieve, it wasn't that long ago that Catholics and Protestants weren't killing eachother and eachothers children, in Ireland and abroad

I find that Leopards don't change their spots, just as Hitler and his regime have lost their power to do what they would like, those neo nazis are patiently waiting for a day they can start again

I believe the Catholic church will as it did with Hitler find a common denominator in enemies and work with the beast up until a point, then as we see from scripture the beast will destroy the women who rode upon its back
 
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frankleespeaking

Guest
There are no false doctrines in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit protects her as was promised by Christ Himself. It's a shame that the devil has managed to turn so many people who love Jesus against Christ's church.

The Holy Spirit warned the church it would be infiltrated by wolves. the devil has blinded you to what a wolf looks like, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their long flowing robes, and the pompus way they are heralded as dignitaries, taking the highest seats at a banquet. your whole institution is a red and scarlet robed, decorated in gold and precious stones..........where have I read somthing like that?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,421
6,700
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My Catholic mother was divorced 20+ years ago and she still has emotional breakdowns when you bring up the subject of Church.

When her husband left her, the church treated her like a leper. The priest suggested she try and get an annulment so God will forgive her, even though that would effectively make all of her children bastards. When she refused, they 'kindly' suggested she find a new church.

She's no longer a church-goer because she can't set foot in one without bawling.

Maybe it's not official Catholic policy to treat people that way, but that's the culture they have created.

The mental and emotional damage my mother has suffered by being raised Catholic is deplorable. From the time she was a small child right up to present day, they have an evil grip on her and indescribable power over her. We are trying to teach her about the love of Jesus and what the Bible says, but we might as well be speaking Chinese. It's absolutely foreign to her.
Those highers up divorce, have affairs, and whatever else perversions come to the mind for them, but don't you ever let a simple person of faith have a divorce...... The wonderful thing about loving Yeshua (Jesus) is being totally free of judging others, and that is freedom! Grace giving is very healthy.