Cessation of Gifts

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DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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#81
I would say as long as Jesus is present with his disciples the only thing that is lacking is the faith of those who hear about the spiritual gifts

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if the church taught the gospel we would be seeing more evidence of faith

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭

faith and it’s evidence comes when you have believers of the gospel. Spiritual gifts manifest through those believers

“If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we hear of thkngs like gifts of the spirit and someone writes a book about how they ceased , it’s bringing instant doubt into our hearts . Rather than hearing and believing we start to consider with our intelligence and reason ourselves out of the simplicity of hearing and believing the gospel

faith has ceased in many the gospel remains the exact same and will always apply and be true
Just to Clarify = the first saint, on this thread, to bring forth the affirmation of the Gifts, for Today, by Scripture was Lucy in Post #50

My Opening was intended for all to seek, on their own, the Truth from Scripture.

Since the evidence has been brought forth i confirm the Scriptural Evidence in 1 Corinthians chapter 13

KEY verse: "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Also the second part of the CHALLENGE is still Open and has not been successfully revealed from Scripture:

The other Witness to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for His Bride until He Comes
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,427
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#82
The current position cannot be proved with Scripture, but with actual facts one way or another. So if you are prepared to accept the studies of linguists who have analyzed modern tongues, fine. If not, you can go to 1 Corinthians 13:8 and either believe it or not.
FACTS ARE LOWER FORM OF Truth. The fact can and are errored that should be obvious just by reading the Gnostic Gospels. and a linguist is not a theologian. LOL Net I will from these types that Darwin was right.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
2,873
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London
#83
Well first part of scripture is 1 Corinthians 13.

That which is perfect, or the perfect thing is what causes sign gifts in this passage to cease.

So some key points:

Its talking the GIFT of knowlege, not knowledge in general. So we still have knowledge now. But not the particular gift used for initially spreading Gods Word and setting up God's churches.

Another key thing.. in this passage what is in part? Because that is what the perfect is completing.

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge in part.... the perfect thing completes these gifts. The passage is about part (prophecy, etc) to whole, incomplete to complete, child to man (paul speaking of maturity), obscured (the mirror) to fully known.

Now prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts were completely to do with God revealing His Word thru men. It was partial revelation at the time and became complete thru the completion of the canon.

Other things that led to the cessation were the likes of the death of apostles.

Last point is that the practice of God no longer operating in something in the same way should not be surprise given he no longer will flood the world again symbolized by the rainbow, no longer operates with the OT system of sacrifices and rules, a d there are customs from NT times we no longer hold to like kissing cheeks.
God told us He would never flood the world again, He has never told us that He will not furnish His church any more with gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The word written down [the bible] is not more perfect than the words spoken by Paul who wrote much of it. And it is the bible which urges that we did all speak with tongues and earnestly desire the higher gifts ... especially that we may prophesy.

That is the canon of scripture.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
10,490
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#84
We who continue seeking, receiving and walking in His gifts agree.
bless you brother
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
803
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#85
he fact of the matter is that modern tongues are an aberration and the majority of Christians do not speak in tongues. So now you should prove by linguistic analysis that you are speaking an actual human language and not gibberish. No one in Acts 2 spoke gibberish.
I'm on the fence with this one. While I am quite certain that there are many outright fraudulent 'speakers of tongues'... I'm not sure that the Lord's intent was for the gifts to be subject to a controlled scientific analysis or experiment.
On the other hand, what I think we could reasonably expect- is to see the gift working for ourselves. I personally haven't been in a modern Acts 2 scenario, and I'd wager that a lot of Americans haven't been either... English is a pretty popular language right now, so while I've not seen it... I haven't exactly had an opportunity to see it either. Xenoglossia (or whatever way it's pronounced) seems to me to be like it would be very niche.
Glossolalia, on the other hand, is completely unverifiable apart from the person doing it, and it doesn't edify, or look very miraculous to anyone apart from the people doing it either.
I also think it's very presumptuous for a church to make scriptural occurrences of speaking in tongues into a doctrine stating that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost- as it is literally never stated in scripture, and it's built entirely on sandy narrative support.
But at the same time, lack of evidence for the operation of tongues, for me, is not evidence for the non-operation. I have seen a lot of things in this life, but I'm sure there are plenty of things I have not seen. I feel like saying "God doesn't do that" is putting him in a box, unless he has already said in scripture 'I don't do that".
 

Marilyn

Active member
Jul 27, 2021
956
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#86
Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.
.
`Christ.....He Himself gave some to be apostles, and some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ TILL WE ALL come to the UNITY OF THE FAITH and the knowledge of the Don of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

As that has not happened yet, then Christ the Head of His Body continues to give of Himself in these areas. The Holy Spirit`s gifts are distributed throughout the Body, eg. Prophecy, for the - edifying, exhorting and comforting of the members and tongues for the building up of a believer.

`He who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.` (1 Cor. 14: 3 & 4)


Note: the tongue can be `tongues of men and of angels.` (1 Cor. 13: 1) Spirit to spirit to God.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,591
443
83
#88
PROVE IT - by the Word of God...
The idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased at the end of the "apostolic" times is just complete LIE!

The Scriptures and Church history prove the exact opposite!

I did a blog on this subject, you can find it Here, Here and Here

And just a word of warning to the "cessationists" who say that the gifts of tongues (and other manifestations of the Spirit) are demonic; the Lord Jesus told the scribes who came down from Jerusalem who were saying that the miracles He did by the power of the Holy Spirit were really being done by Satanic power, that they were guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and of eternal sin! Mark 3v28-30.

The Christians who ascribe the signs, wonders and miracles of the Holy Spirit (i.e, the gifts of the Spirit, 1Cor 12v7-11) to Satan, go FAR down the road of committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, make NO mistake about it!
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
6,614
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#90
The idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased at the end of the "apostolic" times is just complete LIE!

The Scriptures and Church history prove the exact opposite!

I did a blog on this subject, you can find it Here, Here and Here

And just a word of warning to the "cessationists" who say that the gifts of tongues (and other manifestations of the Spirit) are demonic; the Lord Jesus told the scribes who came down from Jerusalem who were saying that the miracles He did by the power of the Holy Spirit were really being done by Satanic power, that they were guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and of eternal sin! Mark 3v28-30.

The Christians who ascribe the signs, wonders and miracles of the Holy Spirit (i.e, the gifts of the Spirit, 1Cor 12v7-11) to Satan, go FAR down the road of committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, make NO mistake about it!
Did you perceive i was against the Gifts? If, Yes, please share -Thank You
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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#91
I'm on the fence with this one. While I am quite certain that there are many outright fraudulent 'speakers of tongues'... I'm not sure that the Lord's intent was for the gifts to be subject to a controlled scientific analysis or experiment.
On the other hand, what I think we could reasonably expect- is to see the gift working for ourselves. I personally haven't been in a modern Acts 2 scenario, and I'd wager that a lot of Americans haven't been either... English is a pretty popular language right now, so while I've not seen it... I haven't exactly had an opportunity to see it either. Xenoglossia (or whatever way it's pronounced) seems to me to be like it would be very niche.
Glossolalia, on the other hand, is completely unverifiable apart from the person doing it, and it doesn't edify, or look very miraculous to anyone apart from the people doing it either.
I also think it's very presumptuous for a church to make scriptural occurrences of speaking in tongues into a doctrine stating that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost- as it is literally never stated in scripture, and it's built entirely on sandy narrative support.
But at the same time, lack of evidence for the operation of tongues, for me, is not evidence for the non-operation. I have seen a lot of things in this life, but I'm sure there are plenty of things I have not seen. I feel like saying "God doesn't do that" is putting him in a box, unless he has already said in scripture 'I don't do that".
You said: "I also think it's very presumptuous for a church to make scriptural occurrences of speaking in tongues into a doctrine stating that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost

i say: AGREE in Part = "Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"

You said "as it is literally never stated in scripture, and it's built entirely on sandy narrative support."

i say: Please explain this - "sandy narrative support"
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
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#92
You said: "I also think it's very presumptuous for a church to make scriptural occurrences of speaking in tongues into a doctrine stating that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost

i say: AGREE in Part

You said "as it is literally never stated in scripture, and it's built entirely on sandy narrative support."

i say: Please explain this - "sandy narrative support"
our chime in. just maybe the meaning has do with the premise,,the aahh! foundation of that thought being built upon sand.Thus not upon Jesus who is lord.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
6,614
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#93
our chime in. just maybe the meaning has do with the premise,,the aahh! foundation of that thought being built upon sand.Thus not upon Jesus who is lord.
interesting
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,953
468
83
#94
`Christ.....He Himself gave some to be apostles, and some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ TILL WE ALL come to the UNITY OF THE FAITH and the knowledge of the Don of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

As that has not happened yet, then Christ the Head of His Body continues to give of Himself in these areas. The Holy Spirit`s gifts are distributed throughout the Body, eg. Prophecy, for the - edifying, exhorting and comforting of the members and tongues for the building up of a believer.

`He who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.` (1 Cor. 14: 3 & 4)


Note: the tongue can be `tongues of men and of angels.` (1 Cor. 13: 1) Spirit to spirit to God.
Knowledge of the unity of the faith in Ephesians... the completed Word of God is this thing.

It is also a 'measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ'

That allows someone to be a perfect, complete (mature) person, of full age in the faith.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,497
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#95
Glossolalia, on the other hand, is completely unverifiable apart from the person doing it, and it doesn't edify, or look very miraculous to anyone apart from the people doing it either.
That's what we are talking about. Furthermore, pagans are also know to speak glossolalia while communicating with spirits.

The Bible does not speak about glossolalia. Just glossa, glossais, and dialektos, In modern parlance "languages" or "dialects". And why wouldn't God allow scientific analysis of anything? After all He is the one who created the laws of science. If some native speaker of English started speaking Farsi* supernaturally, that would be subject to linguistic analysis. But even those who practice tongues go through language schools in order to speak foreign languages.

*For those not aware Farsi is the language of Persia (Iran).
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,537
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#96
God told us He would never flood the world again, He has never told us that He will not furnish His church any more with gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The word written down [the bible] is not more perfect than the words spoken by Paul who wrote much of it. And it is the bible which urges that we did all speak with tongues and earnestly desire the higher gifts ... especially that we may prophesy.

That is the canon of scripture.
Amen honestly the reason they were filled with the spirit and he was doing all these miracles and wonders is because the early church had living faith
And we’re walking in the gospel

They believed and lived the things they believed so God was with them powerfully

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

… Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people.

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

modern day Christianity is we argue online about scripture and attend church twice a week , or make a post here claiming “ we don’t need to attend church that has no relevance “

we truly are far from home as a church we don’t really resemble the gospels doctrine anymore as a body seems a cold love has blown into our hearts and so the evidence of the Holy Ghost is measured by our faith which is poorly seen these two thousand years later

Christs word is what we are missing and suffering a famine of in the church while theologies and books opposing his word creeps in to churches doctrines more and more faith is real and true but who has it anymore ?
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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#97
Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.

Could this be true? If , Yes, then speaking in tongues would be counterfeit and even demonic.

God is not the Author of confusion and somebody is in great error.

PROVE IT - by the Word of God and do so by obeying the LORD's Commandments:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:15-17

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The Two or Three Witnesses are found in Scripture concerning this Challenge of TRUTH.
The problem is that the same Bible used to "prove" the gifts are for today (my conviction) is used by those who think that the church is now perfect and so does not need the power of the Holy Spirit. OK, that's a bit sarcastic. I do not believe that what you are asking is possible.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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#98
That's what we are talking about. Furthermore, pagans are also know to speak glossolalia while communicating with spirits.

The Bible does not speak about glossolalia. Just glossa, glossais, and dialektos, In modern parlance "languages" or "dialects". And why wouldn't God allow scientific analysis of anything? After all He is the one who created the laws of science. If some native speaker of English started speaking Farsi* supernaturally, that would be subject to linguistic analysis. But even those who practice tongues go through language schools in order to speak foreign languages.

*For those not aware Farsi is the language of Persia (Iran).
I have heard the testimonies of a few people who have spoken a language they did not learn. One started an orphanage. She started speaking the local language without even realising it.

The OP is about the gifts, not just tongues. It's the least of the gifts. The obsession with tongues irritates me.

All the gifts of the Spirit can be counterfeited by demons. If there is a counterfeit, there must be the real also.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,497
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#99
The OP is about the gifts, not just tongues. It's the least of the gifts.
Agreed. But that is not how the OP is presented. Here's the opening paragraph:

"Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles."

There are about twenty spiritual gifts recorded in Scripture, but it seems tongues and healings get all the attention. Why? Does the flesh delight in a "show" of spirituality?
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
803
384
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why wouldn't God allow scientific analysis of anything?
Well, I guess what I mean is, speaking in tongues is "as the spirit gives the utterance" right? So, you couldn't just set up an experiment and be like "ok, god, give me an utterance, so I can prove my gift" because I think that would fall under 'tempting the lord' because it's not something he has asked us to test him in. Spiritual gifts are supposed to be for the edification of the body- which is people that already believe- so, they aren't really given to provide scientific evidence of anything: rather, it is just a sign for people who just happen to experience it.
i say: Please explain this - "sandy narrative support"
I say that the narrative support is sandy because while there are instances of something happening (like people immediately speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts), I don't think those instances of it occurring are sufficient to make it into doctrine that it will always happen that way. It's putting God in a box that he did not put himself into.
As far as I can tell, in the book of Acts, instances where people spoke in tongues when receiving the holy ghost make a lot of sense. There is mixed company-Hebrews, proselytes, and gentiles- who probably didn't all speak each other's languages fluently. Whereas in instances where it wouldn't make sense, like Paul's encounter with Annanias, speaking in tongues isn't mentioned- yet people will insist that it did happen, when there's no reason to assume it did.