Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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I have seen your emotional health coaches try to whip up the crowd of simple folk into a frenzy so that endorphins mask the pain for a short period of time.
What Jesus and his apostles did is not what your bunch of money seeking charlatans seek to fake today. Again, you will be judged for perusing such lies...
Matthew 7:21-24 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
You have a very narrow way of looking at things, and your approach to this topic is foolish.

You do not consider what the Bible actually teaches. Instead, you respond to a stereotype in your mind. I do not want a preacher of the word to be an 'emotional health coach' beyond sound Biblical instruction that benefits emotional health as well as other parts of our being-- based in scripture not pop psychology. The word of God has an impact on our emotional health as well, after all.

Name one lie I have told in this thread. You are the one who makes assumptions about people and wildly accuses based on his guesses. The Bible says to let no corruption come out of your mouth. You should make application of this teaching and apply it to your typing on keyboards as well.

The passage you quote from Matthew 7 does not teach that all who do miracles, prophesy, or cast out demons do not do the will of the Father. Rather, the One giving the teaching was the Prophet like unto Moses. He performed many miracles and cast out demons, and he was speaking to his apostles who did miracles and cast out demons. Peter would have at least one vision and John would write a book of prophecy.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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...buuut again, here and there say, no lineups of loved ones bringing their lame to be made whole or grieving mothers receiving their babies back from the grave....your faith in these things you claim as fact, that are to be actual manifestations of supernatural events being injected into the here an now? You can’t actually take anyone there, but only claim that over here or over there someone said or saw or did. Why do you need to hold onto such shams?
Let me ask you, if an atheist insisted that Christ did not rise from the dead because you could not take him physically to Christ and show him Jesus' hands and feet, does that prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

You, hopefully, accept the testimony of witnesses, recorded in the New Testament and believe because of the grace of God.

Don't be lazy. Do your own research. There are at least hundreds of supernatural healings on popular social media video networks online. You can check out their veracity for yourself. If I did show you a video, my guess is you would reject the video as being false. If there were a video of someone's arm growing back-- and I have not seen that particular thing online-- then you would most likely reject it or ask for another video-- moving a goal post.

Your approach to this topic is like that of a loud-mouth atheist's toward the topic of the resurrection.

I have seen a few academic papers about supernatural healing and things of that nature. I have not read Bible scholar Craig Keener's 1200+ book on Miracles yet. He dealt with David Hume's historical, and circular, argument that miracles are not real because they are not part of human experience. Hume rejected a well-documented case in the French royal family because, well, such things do not happen... and they are French. Keener started his book at a footnote to address this type of reasoning and the claim that New Testament miracles were embellishments by showing that claims of miracles existed throughout various eras. From what I understand, his book contains numerous examples from history and modern times.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Why do you need the witchcraft of future telling? The scriptures are complete and Jesus warns you of such deceptions and their end.....Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Read Deuteronomy 18. Israelites were forbidden from going to necromancers, cloudreaders, soothsayers, diviners, etc. They were allowed to go to a prophet of the LORD.

So if someone, like Saul's father, lost some donkeys, an Israelite was allowed to go ask a prophet where the donkeys were. A king of Israel sent to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Echron as to whether he would survive. His messengers were intercepted by a prophet who asked is there not a God in Israel that he would inquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron? If he had asked a prophet of the LORD, that was allowed.

Is asking whether an injured man will survive or the location of lost donkeys 'fortune telling' in your understanding of things?

The verse you quoted, by the Prophet like unto Moses, a great miracle worker who cast out demons, speaking to miracle workers who cast out demons does not prove that miracles, casting out demons, or prophesying is no longer needed. Maybe you should take some of those lessons in hermenuetics instead of just posting the link.

In I Corinthians 12, individuals in the body of Christ with different gifts are like different body parts. One part of the body does not say to another, "I have no need of thee." You should not say that to miracle workers or those who prophesy-- gifts listed in that chapter.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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For all who don't believe in modern-day miracles, I would encourage you to read Lee Strobel's The Case For Miracles.
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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Why do you need the witchcraft of future telling? The scriptures are complete and Jesus warns you of such deceptions and their end.....Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Your post is without merit because you have committed a cardinal sin which is you DO NOT base a doctrine on one verse of scripture.

Any one can take a single verse of scripture and make it say what you want it to say but that does not mean you are right. In all probability you are wrong because you choose to ignore ALL the others verses on the topic.

As we all know or should know that a text without a context is a pretext. So what is a pretext?

A reason or excuse given to hide the real reason for something. In the christian realm that is substuting scriptural theology with your theology.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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If you had lower back pain, you would probably be quite happy if the Lord healed it. We should be thankful to God when He heals 'small' ailments. They may not be small to those who have them.

When you read the Gospel do you think, "That's nothing. That's just a woman with an issue of blood. What's a little bleeding?" I do not think that is the proper attitude with which to view a healing.
When you read the gospels, do you have the impression that the main reason why Jesus did all the healings that he did in Israel, was because he was being kind and compassionate?
 

Evmur

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In support of your excellent post:
Everything hinges on the definition of a false prophet or teacher. Jeremiah gives a good definition of those who dream up prophecy when God has not sent them. If we look at the historical context, the false prophets of Israel were saying that God will bring peace and prosperity along with victory over their enemies even though idolatry was rife in the land. What the false prophets were saying was, "Don't worry that you people are worshiping Baal, God will still bless you."

Modern day false prophets say much the same thing. "Even though you are rejecting Christ, ignoring God's Word, practicing the occult and paganism, God will still make you prosperous, heal you and cause you to remain in His blessing. I hear from the Holy Spirit and what I say is God speaking directly to me, so what I am saying to you is the Word of God."

False signs and wonders glorify the big name preacher and deceive people into thinking that he is God's exclusive man of faith and power, and that people have to follow his teaching in order to benefit from them.

The AntiChrist will come with supernatural signs and wonders that will draw people to him and away from Christ. We see the AntiChrist spirit in churches where the leader claims supreme "spiritual" authority for himself, and that anyone who expresses trust in the finished work of Christ and that faith in Christ transcends man's authority is treated as if he has a demon and is ejected. An Antichrist pastor is one who demands that people "come under" his "authority". instead of pointing people to Christ as the sole object of their faith and trust.

Kenny Copeland is one such AntiChrist church leader. He puts himself in the seat of Christ and requires that people put their trust in him and his teaching, thereby blocking free access to Christ Himself.

I knew a Presbyterian minister in a small town who ruled his church with a rod of iron and had to have absolute control over everything and nothing could be done without his direct permission. He even rebuked a church elder for having a gathering of Christian visitors in his home one Sunday afternoon without his authorisation. So it is not just some cultish false shepherds who shows the AntiChrist spirit, but even pastors of Evangelical churches.

I would go as far as to say that Cessationist church leaders who throw believers who start to manifest the gifts of the Spirit out of their churches are showing the AntiChrist spirit, because these false pastors are dictating to Christ how the Holy Spirit should operate in their churches.
Hi thanks. I don't know about Copeland ... the problem is that one man ministries are not really bible, Paul was not a one man band.

The gifts are for the assembly and ought to be manifest there, such assemblies would soon spread throughout any nation ... as they are in China today.
 

Evmur

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In case this is your idea, Matthew 7 is not a polemic against prophesying or doing miracles. Page after page of Matthew and the other Gospels shows Jesus doing miracles, and the apostles did them, too. The problem is with those who do not bear good fruit who do not do the will of the Father. Most of the people who performed miracles in the Bible are the type of people we would generally wish to emulate. Judas Iscariot is an exception.
Let's say GENUINE miracles, don't seem to be many genuine miracles being manifest in these ministries that proclaim them.

There are plenty miracles alright, God's hand was never short, every time God answers prayer is a miracle. Nor is there any shortage of testimonials in the church from people who have received genuine miracles of every kind whether physical or material or divers deliverances from evil.

We want to see good fruit in all our brethren, we would like to see more love from our Evangelical brethren. But we must not mix these things up. Miracles are the result of FAITH not fruit. That must be maintained as the truth just as much as the truth about salvation. Salvation is the result of faith not fruit.
 

Evmur

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Tell me, why do you need to speak in babble that no one can understand? Or heal that really isn’t healing? Or tell the future like a witch when God say’s if your foretelling does not come about? You are to be stoned to death. Or ask for God to send his holy spirit, when he is already in every child of his upon conversion? Like why fo need to do these things?
you babble in english
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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The nails and rocks in people's bodies is from folk magic, not Christianity. The video I watched had people casting demons out of a guy who was acting wild and crazy. They showed a clip of lots of nails they got from the guy that were supposedly put in his body as 'jimat'-- magic objects. If magicians can turn sticks into snakes with the dark arts, is putting little rocks in people's teeth impossible?
I'm not saying any of these things are impossible.
Are you aware that the old testament and new testament both warn against false sign and wonders?
 

Evmur

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Let me ask you, if an atheist insisted that Christ did not rise from the dead because you could not take him physically to Christ and show him Jesus' hands and feet, does that prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

You, hopefully, accept the testimony of witnesses, recorded in the New Testament and believe because of the grace of God.

Don't be lazy. Do your own research. There are at least hundreds of supernatural healings on popular social media video networks online. You can check out their veracity for yourself. If I did show you a video, my guess is you would reject the video as being false. If there were a video of someone's arm growing back-- and I have not seen that particular thing online-- then you would most likely reject it or ask for another video-- moving a goal post.

Your approach to this topic is like that of a loud-mouth atheist's toward the topic of the resurrection.

I have seen a few academic papers about supernatural healing and things of that nature. I have not read Bible scholar Craig Keener's 1200+ book on Miracles yet. He dealt with David Hume's historical, and circular, argument that miracles are not real because they are not part of human experience. Hume rejected a well-documented case in the French royal family because, well, such things do not happen... and they are French. Keener started his book at a footnote to address this type of reasoning and the claim that New Testament miracles were embellishments by showing that claims of miracles existed throughout various eras. From what I understand, his book contains numerous examples from history and modern times.
I often wonder what if God had shown Luther "the sick shall be healed by faith" when He showed him "the just shall live by faith" what a different reformation we would have had.

All evangelical christians believe salvation is by faith [not all understand the grace aspect]

The question is what is saved? we got the greater part, the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life, glory to God. But saved actually means to be made whole, to be delivered of all evil.

No Jew would expect that God would forgive their sins and restore them to favour and leave them sick or poor or in peril. The whole kit and kaboodle comes [or ought to come] in one glorious package. It should include sanctification and the gift of the Holy Spirit too.

But we see in the churches that this does not appear to be the case.

If we read Acts we see in Samaria at the preaching of Phillip the people turned to the Lord, they believed, they were baptised in water

... but they had not yet received the gift of the Holy Ghost, He had not yet fallen on them.

.... so it is not all as automatic as Evangelicals are saying. If you ask me Evangelicals are in the same situation as the Samaritans or like the disciples Paul met in Ephesus whom Paul recognized had not received the fulness of the promise.
 

Lookupnotback

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Sep 26, 2020
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I am not playing with words. You are a false accuser, just like your father... a liar from the beginning.

prophesy
to declare or foretell by or as if by divine inspiration.
You see you are ignorant in the meaning and use of the words you use.....the word prophesy was used in the act of teaching the word, expounding on it in the bible’s original intent. It was not till later did the word take on the meaning if foretelling the future, but would you actually look up the meaning and history of the words you use? Or just blindly chase after your emotional trip’n?
The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes (see prophet
 

Lookupnotback

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John MacArthur called his own preaching prophesying in one of his old sermons. Would you make the same accusation toward him?

A lot of prophesying in the Old Testament is stuff other than predictions of the future. Read through various prophecies in Isaiah, etc. about this. Prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Some of it had to do with the state of Israel's heart.

The way the equivalent term was used in Greek included non-future prophecy also. The soldiers who beat Jesus blindfolded him and prophesy who hit him. They asked for supernatural revelation, but not about the future in that instance. Some prophecies in the prophet's writings were about the then-current state of the people's hearts, the secret idolatry they were preforming. Some prophecies were predictions of the future.
Give me the sermon by John calling himself a prophet, hahaha, you can’t. Nut i betcha i could find it! The word has only been used as in the foretelling of future events in more so recent times. It’s intent biblically was to teach the bible or expound on the meaning of the words in it (something you could use some help with before your actions take you to hell’s flames), so we are all to be prophets teaching God’s word and the truth that is in God’s word and the meaning of the words there in. C
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
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John MacArthur called his own preaching prophesying in one of his old sermons. Would you make the same accusation toward him?

A lot of prophesying in the Old Testament is stuff other than predictions of the future. Read through various prophecies in Isaiah, etc. about this. Prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Some of it had to do with the state of Israel's heart.

The way the equivalent term was used in Greek included non-future prophecy also. The soldiers who beat Jesus blindfolded him and prophesy who hit him. They asked for supernatural revelation, but not about the future in that instance. Some prophecies in the prophet's writings were about the then-current state of the people's hearts, the secret idolatry they were preforming. Some prophecies were predictions of the future.
The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
169
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You have a very narrow way of looking at things, and your approach to this topic is foolish.

You do not consider what the Bible actually teaches. Instead, you respond to a stereotype in your mind. I do not want a preacher of the word to be an 'emotional health coach' beyond sound Biblical instruction that benefits emotional health as well as other parts of our being-- based in scripture not pop psychology. The word of God has an impact on our emotional health as well, after all.

Name one lie I have told in this thread. You are the one who makes assumptions about people and wildly accuses based on his guesses. The Bible says to let no corruption come out of your mouth. You should make application of this teaching and apply it to your typing on keyboards as well.

The passage you quote from Matthew 7 does not teach that all who do miracles, prophesy, or cast out demons do not do the will of the Father. Rather, the One giving the teaching was the Prophet like unto Moses. He performed many miracles and cast out demons, and he was speaking to his apostles who did miracles and cast out demons. Peter would have at least one vision and John would write a book of prophecy.
They performed as one’s intended to do so and the time for such things but your and your’s now? Not the same, just short lived emotional trip’n with no lasting value.
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
169
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Let me ask you, if an atheist insisted that Christ did not rise from the dead because you could not take him physically to Christ and show him Jesus' hands and feet, does that prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

You, hopefully, accept the testimony of witnesses, recorded in the New Testament and believe because of the grace of God.

Don't be lazy. Do your own research. There are at least hundreds of supernatural healings on popular social media video networks online. You can check out their veracity for yourself. If I did show you a video, my guess is you would reject the video as being false. If there were a video of someone's arm growing back-- and I have not seen that particular thing online-- then you would most likely reject it or ask for another video-- moving a goal post.

Your approach to this topic is like that of a loud-mouth atheist's toward the topic of the resurrection.

I have seen a few academic papers about supernatural healing and things of that nature. I have not read Bible scholar Craig Keener's 1200+ book on Miracles yet. He dealt with David Hume's historical, and circular, argument that miracles are not real because they are not part of human experience. Hume rejected a well-documented case in the French royal family because, well, such things do not happen... and they are French. Keener started his book at a footnote to address this type of reasoning and the claim that New Testament miracles were embellishments by showing that claims of miracles existed throughout various eras. From what I understand, his book contains numerous examples from history and modern times.
Social media sites, hummmm....rrrriiiight, there are oodles and oodles of healings in movies from out of hollywood too, gee it’s gotta be true then. Jesus and the boy’s wiped out sickness and disease in their area and time via the real miracles they were doing.....where is that happening today in the very same way?
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
169
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Read Deuteronomy 18. Israelites were forbidden from going to necromancers, cloudreaders, soothsayers, diviners, etc. They were allowed to go to a prophet of the LORD.

So if someone, like Saul's father, lost some donkeys, an Israelite was allowed to go ask a prophet where the donkeys were. A king of Israel sent to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Echron as to whether he would survive. His messengers were intercepted by a prophet who asked is there not a God in Israel that he would inquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron? If he had asked a prophet of the LORD, that was allowed.

Is asking whether an injured man will survive or the location of lost donkeys 'fortune telling' in your understanding of things?

The verse you quoted, by the Prophet like unto Moses, a great miracle worker who cast out demons, speaking to miracle workers who cast out demons does not prove that miracles, casting out demons, or prophesying is no longer needed. Maybe you should take some of those lessons in hermenuetics instead of just posting the link.

In I Corinthians 12, individuals in the body of Christ with different gifts are like different body parts. One part of the body does not say to another, "I have no need of thee." You should not say that to miracle workers or those who prophesy-- gifts listed in that chapter.
And yet you refuse to see that the things you seem to need were for another time and not now, why do you need these things in a time when they are not needed but for emotional trip’n? Why can’t you accept the gifts given through the challenges of life and leaning into the nreast of Jesus for the strength to go on and not these supernatural shenanigans you so desperately seem to need to escape the challenges of life that teach us submission into the Saviour to savour the learning time and not try to escape from it through instant gratification?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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When you read the gospels, do you have the impression that the main reason why Jesus did all the healings that he did in Israel, was because he was being kind and compassionate?
Jesus did want He saw the Father doing. God is a compassionate God.

We know from the Bible that Jesus had compassion before feeding the 5000.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,133
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I'm not saying any of these things are impossible.
Are you aware that the old testament and new testament both warn against false sign and wonders?
If we have a Biblical perspective we will realize that a miracle can be genuinely from God or some kind of deception, and that there can be true and false prophecies.