Cessationism

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Dec 21, 2012
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#81
do you not see how disingenuous you are being by refusing to address the Apostles praying for people in Syria to receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit?

this is no longer an honest exchange because you refuse to deal with scripture that refutes your position

it would also be unwise to assume anything and actually quite unfair when I have never moved from my stance


[
/QUOTE]

One more time...dear sister,

14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: 16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8

these people were saved and even baptized but had NOT received the Holy Spirit so the Apostles prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. it is stated very plainly that the Holy Spirit had NOT fallen on any of the saved people in Samaria.


Read that in the quote in reference to Acts 8 that they ahd not received the Holy Spirit yet for why Peter & John went down there to lay hands on them so that they would.

Then you made a reference to Simon while Peter & John were doing that laying on of hands, and you claimed that was a second infilling.

if you continue in this chapter, you will read where a man named Simon offered money to be able to give the gift of the Holy Spirit and of course he was soundly rebuked. this indicates an accepted occurrence of a second infilling. here we have the true reflected against the untrue.
There can be no second infilling if they never had the Holy Spirit for why Peter & John was laying hands on them to receive.

さようなら


Sayōnara
I can accept that.

To the tongue speakers out there; you didn't bother to correct her. A non-tongue speaker had to show how she was opposing herself. And she still may not see how she was opposing herself. You may not see how she was opposing herself.

I leave her to God then, but this thread is about Cessationism as the OP is inquiring why any one would believe that.

I just hope newbies out there know that they do not need tongues to pray to God by and they know Paul's warning to not seek to receive another Jesus or another Holy Spirit or another gospel to receive for that is not of Him, but another gospel.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
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Philly, PA, USA
#82
Where did this doctrine come from?

Is there any scripture to back it up? I have yet to find any.

Why is cessationism versus continuation such a dividing factor in the church today?

Obviously, I am not a cessationist. If you are, don't worry, I don't think you're a bad person or 'not saved' or anything ridiculous like that. But I am genuinely curious, why do you believe the Holy Spirit would just... stop doing what He's doing in the world in such a powerful way?
1 Cor. 13, but it's not doctrinal, as-in, if you don't believe it you're not a Christian. More of a strongly held belief. My denomination is cessationist, but I'm not. And, when it gets down to the nitty-gritty, what they're really against is no-purpose tongue-speaking, and no prophets or apostles today. I also tend to disagree with them on the tongues thing, but agree with the other two.

It doesn't divide us. It's not a case of us against them. It's a case for we don't agree, but we still serve the same Lord. AND they most certainly don't think "the Holy Spirit would just... stop doing what He's doing in the world in such a powerful way." They're just as sure of how the Holy Spirit is working things out as you are. Possibly more so, since they tend to study the word much more often then the rest of us and for much longer.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#83
I am familiar with those passages. The problem is, it says "they shall". That is not the same as "they have".
It wasn't written in English. This is the word used (from Strong's Concordance.)

καταργέω
katargeō
kat-arg-eh'-o
From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

No pronouns used. You can't prove your case either way by arguing English semantics to a not-English word.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#84
That verse is specifically referring to adding to/removing from (essentially tampering with) the account of the Apocalypse of John (Book of Revelation). It is quite possible that Revelation pre dated the book of Jude, so it is taking that verse out of context to use it as a warning against adding to or removing from the Bible as a whole even, let alone to apply it to all prophecy in general.

Also, much of Revelation is multi- layered, and one major layer is the end times. It makes more sense to assume that prophecy will cease upon the return of Christ, when all things will be fulfilled.
Really not. (And, remember I'm not a cessationist.) You're going to have to learn how the Bible came to be and understand it wasn't written in English to get down to the finer parts of this argument. Revelations might be the last book in the Bible, but it, quite possibly, wasn't the last book penned. (And Jude was probably written before the Gospel of John too.)

That, and Revelation had nothing to do with what Paul was saying to the Corinthians.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#85
When was the last time you saw a funeral stopped?
Some morons didn't know that the cars in a funeral possession are supposed to keep going, even if the light turned red for them, so they stopped the procession to wait for the other cars to catch up.

Oh! Not a literal question?

 
Nov 6, 2017
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#86
No, I am not making the gifts out to be "the culprit" as you suggest. You mentioned the unbelief of UNBELIEVERS when Christ could not or would not do miracles. ("Would not" would be more accurate). But we are not discussing the unbelief of unbelievers but the sincere conviction of many believers that the age of miracle workers passed away with the apostles.

So this cannot possibly be a hindrance to the Holy Spirit to continue providing those signs, wonders and miracles, if indeed that is God's plan AFTER the apostolic age. Which means that every Bible-believing church should have AT LEAST one miracle-worker, and miracles should abound daily in every church, in every part of the world, regardless of denomination.

If this were really the case, then you would have daily reports in the media concerning these miracles.

Christians should be content that there are many other spiritual gifts (apart from sign gifts) which are present at this time and which should be used for the benefit of the lost and the saved.
The KJB says:
Mark 6:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.

Touche- :D


 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#87
When was the last time you tried?

Part of gifts are healings, prophecies, raising the dead, limbs coming back, &c. Do these happen today? No. Ppl want to act like modern day profits...errr...prophets.
Yes.
To some extent, yes. (Since I consider Word of Wisdom prophecy. Not talking fortune telling.)
Yes.
Yes.
YES!
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#88
When these signs in the bible happened, ppl saw them. They saw Dorcas raised by Peter. They saw Eutychus raised by Paul. They saw Jesus raise ppl from the dead. They saw the lame walk, the mute talk, the blind see. Prophecies spoken came to fruition.

I see none of these today. I agree we walk by faith and not by sight. However, there are no events in today's world confirming these gifts are still alive today.
Ever consider you don't see because you're not looking? I've seen miracles. I've been healed. My husband laid hands on a man and prayed and that man was healed. I've even seen a credible source (from an ER doctor) of God raising a man from the dead through that doctor. Even the man who came back to life was surprised... to say the least. lol
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#89
i believe that God can still do all the signs.

ive seen people healed. ive been healed. but i dont believe anyone has the kinda gift of healing the apostles had were someone touches their cloak and is healed instantly.

this is why its so important to be a dispensationalist or rightly divide the word of truth. or u'll get mixed up on all sorts of doctrines.
the book of acts is a transitional book. by the time u get to the end of paul's ministry he departs people who are sick and is traveling with a doctor too. he tells timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach sake so clearly he wasnt able to heal freely anymore.

the signs were for the jews. thats why the signs are coming back soon when the church is taken up and we enter the time of jacob's trouble. jews require a sign the bible says.
the signs were to confirm the message of the apostles as authentic.
I disagree on the whole dispensation-excuses-God excuse. Sorry. God is still doing what he has always done. He hasn't changed with the times. He created time!
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#90
I do not want to put God in a box. If the miraculous occurs that's awesome!

But this brother brings up a very valid point. Why would those with these "gifts" of healing and bringing people back from the dead not be done in a public way as to bring Glory to God, and perhaps bring many to Christ as was done by the early Church?
They have. I posted the video of one credible story on this forum about a year ago.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
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Philly, PA, USA
#91
Correction: Some ne'er-do-wells do think they alone know all things, and thus enjoy dividing with junk like this.
It is the work of the spirit of anti-Christ.
Christ = the anointed
Pentecostal saints received an anointing (the Holy Spirit)
anti-anointing = anti-gospel
denying the only gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles
mutilating the 'long" ending of Mark 16
Constantine and the incorporation of 2nd century Christian faith into pagan Rome
the rebirth of Rome under the Papacy > Roman Catholic rule of Europe
The Reformation giving back to Christendom the Bible in common tongues but
creating new church faiths on the teachings of men
The desire by those not practicing the original God given gospel of Pentecost to
defend their departure from the scriptures by attacking the scriptures
self will of many over submission and obedience to the Spirit of truth.
 

NayborBear

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2015
929
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#92
No, I am not making the gifts out to be "the culprit" as you suggest. You mentioned the unbelief of UNBELIEVERS when Christ could not or would not do miracles. ("Would not" would be more accurate). But we are not discussing the unbelief of unbelievers but the sincere conviction of many believers that the age of miracle workers passed away with the apostles.

So this cannot possibly be a hindrance to the Holy Spirit to continue providing those signs, wonders and miracles, if indeed that is God's plan AFTER the apostolic age. Which means that every Bible-believing church should have AT LEAST one miracle-worker, and miracles should abound daily in every church, in every part of the world, regardless of denomination.

If this were really the case, then you would have daily reports in the media concerning these miracles.

Christians should be content that there are many other spiritual gifts (apart from sign gifts) which are present at this time and which should be used for the benefit of the lost and the saved.

Ideally, there should be at least more then 3 er 4 "gifts" in every church. Things as they are however, we don't live in an ideal world.

Biggest hindrance I see, is Loving this life, even unto death (fear). Because, it ain't no secret, that the Disciples and Apostles, and even our Lord Himself suffered TREMENDOUS PERSECUTION! Even UNTO death! Even the Priests and Prophets in the O.T. were persecuted.

And? I don't think that much has changed over 5 er 6k years!
 

JairCrawford

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2017
107
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#93
Oh my... It would appear I have opened a can of worms. There's no way I'm going to be able to reply to all of these. Lol

Scripture says that the gifts will cease when that which is perfect comes. That sounds very much to me like Jesus, and Heaven. Forgive me if I am being too bold but to apply this verse to scripture is almost akin to elevating scripture to godlike status and making the Bible an idol.

And what about the healings and miracles (the real ones not the fake ones) that actually do take place today? Don't tell me it's the devil, as if he's the only one that can demonstrate power anymore and God cannot?

Again, I apologize if I am being a bit too bold but I didn't expect this discussion to get so heated. Lol
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,948
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#94
Where did this doctrine come from?

Is there any scripture to back it up? I have yet to find any.

Why is cessationism versus continuation such a dividing factor in the church today?

Obviously, I am not a cessationist. If you are, don't worry, I don't think you're a bad person or 'not saved' or anything ridiculous like that. But I am genuinely curious, why do you believe the Holy Spirit would just... stop doing what He's doing in the world in such a powerful way?
It has interested me as to how they pick and chose which gifts of the Spirit are no longer valid and which are, if the gifts have stopped, they all have stopped, so that means no more teaching, pastors, elders, administration, helps, hospitaity and the like. They are given for the edification and building up of the Church.

Ephesians 4:11-16 "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love".
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,008
253
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Florida
#95
do you not see how disingenuous you are being by refusing to address the Apostles praying for people in Syria to receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit?

this is no longer an honest exchange because you refuse to deal with scripture that refutes your position

it would also be unwise to assume anything and actually quite unfair when I have never moved from my stance


[
/QUOTE]

One more time...dear sister,



Read that in the quote in reference to Acts 8 that they ahd not received the Holy Spirit yet for why Peter & John went down there to lay hands on them so that they would.

Then you made a reference to Simon while Peter & John were doing that laying on of hands, and you claimed that was a second infilling.



There can be no second infilling if they never had the Holy Spirit for why Peter & John was laying hands on them to receive.



I can accept that.

To the tongue speakers out there; you didn't bother to correct her. A non-tongue speaker had to show how she was opposing herself. And she still may not see how she was opposing herself. You may not see how she was opposing herself.

I leave her to God then, but this thread is about Cessationism as the OP is inquiring why any one would believe that.

I just hope newbies out there know that they do not need tongues to pray to God by and they know Paul's warning to not seek to receive another Jesus or another Holy Spirit or another gospel to receive for that is not of Him, but another gospel.

and still you refuse to accept what is stated in Acts 8 and instead swing in another direction to try to have it agree with your vews

you have repeatedly stated in various threads that there is never any sort of infilling of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation

and plainly scripture states otherwise

people who were saved and baptized received this infilling and Paul tells us to pray for the gifts which can only be given by the Holy Spirit if they are genuine

this includes speaking in tongues

There can be no second infilling if they never had the Holy Spirit for why Peter & John was laying hands on them to receive
how can they be saved if they never had the Holy Spirit? we are sealed WITH the Holy Spirit when we are saved

they were saved and baptized and yet received a further infilling
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#96
I think non cessationists confuse the prayers of the saints for someone to be healed with 'the gift of healing'. Even cessationists believe God can heal through prayer. But that is not to be confused with the gift of healing that any one person has! Charismatics are very confused over this.

Some are healed some are not, in fact experience shows overwhelmingly that most are not, and that is wholly within God's providence.

' extraordinary providence' !
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,505
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#97
Scripture says that the gifts will cease when that which is perfect comes. That sounds very much to me like Jesus, and Heaven.
There is a huge difference between "that which is perfect" (the complete perfect written Word of God) and "He who is perfect" (Christ). As to Heaven, it has already been perfect since eternity, so it could not even be considered in this context. Since prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge all pertain to Divine revelation, and since the need for Divine revelations would be nullified once the complete Bible was in the hands of Christians, both grammatically, contextually and spiritually, "that which is perfect" applied to the canon of Scripture.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#98
Oh my... It would appear I have opened a can of worms. There's no way I'm going to be able to reply to all of these. Lol

Scripture says that the gifts will cease when that which is perfect comes. That sounds very much to me like Jesus, and Heaven. Forgive me if I am being too bold but to apply this verse to scripture is almost akin to elevating scripture to godlike status and making the Bible an idol.
You just used scripture to make your case? Think about that.

Jesus regarded scripture and the N.T. epistles exhorts believer to continue in the scripture and the epistles. They did not exhort gifts as if that was the only means of edification. Indeed, for sure source of edification, they point all believers to the scripture. They never said use tongues privately to get your edification. They point ONLY to the scripture in all churches.

Tongue speakers point to 1 Corinthians 14th chapter in taking Paul's words out of context as if he was trying to prove tongues was better than prophecy. He was not. Prophecy was better because tongues has to come with interpretation for that tongue to be understood and fruitful to the tongue speaker and Paul said so thru out that chapter.

And what about the healings and miracles (the real ones not the fake ones) that actually do take place today? Don't tell me it's the devil, as if he's the only one that can demonstrate power anymore and God cannot?

Again, I apologize if I am being a bit too bold but I didn't expect this discussion to get so heated. Lol
Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade was about calling on the Holy Spirit to fall on believers in healing them.

If you do not see anything wrong with that picture, then you need to study the scripture with Him some more, brother.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,096
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#99
Show chapter and verse that Satan can heal, when he puts sickness on people?
;) I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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There is a huge difference between "that which is perfect" (the complete perfect written Word of God) and "He who is perfect" (Christ). As to Heaven, it has already been perfect since eternity, so it could not even be considered in this context. Since prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge all pertain to Divine revelation, and since the need for Divine revelations would be nullified once the complete Bible was in the hands of Christians, both grammatically, contextually and spiritually, "that which is perfect" applied to the canon of Scripture.
It's rather disingenuous to argue semantics on the OP's statement instead of on Scripture. If and only if 1 Corinthians 13 specified that Paul meant the canon of Scripture, the debate would be over. He didn't. It isn't. You're free to interpret it as you do, but you simply cannot convince me, or apparently many others, of your view. I guess the Scripture isn't so "clear" as you earlier claimed.

The question of whether "divine revelation" has ceased is entirely one of interpretation of the term "revelation". In terms of the canon, I agree, it is completed. No argument there, and I have yet to find anyone who does argue it, so it baffles me that cessationists keep claiming that continuationists make such a claim. However, God has spoken to me so many times outside of Scripture that I simply could not accept your view. Do you believe He speaks to you? Do you ever receive guidance, illumination, a message of comfort? All are revelatory.

Cessationists seem to believe collectively that any message from God is (or ought to be) Scripture. Yet the Scripture itself refutes this claim. Why were the prophetic utterances of Philip's daughters, and Agabus prior to Acts 11 not recorded? The answer is simple: because God never intended all prophetic utterance to become Scripture! So the whole claim is baseless.

Now, regarding your claim that "that which is perfect" should be applied to the canon of Scripture "grammatically, contextually and spiritually", frankly, that's your opinion until you back it up with some evidence. I'll counter it off the top with 1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face." Face to face means two faces and therefore two persons, not one person and one book. The perfect is Jesus. We don't know presently as we will know in the eternal kingdom. Even those who study the Bible for a lifetime don't know everything there is to know. The completed Bible as "the perfect" simply doesn't hold water, in my view.