Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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you've omitted 7 verses between here and Col. 2:16 -- so no, that's not 'the context' -- it's only part of the introduction to it, and it's a whole paragraph away.
excuse me, it's actually two paragraphs distant from this command not to allow yourself to be judged over diet, feats, festival or sabbath observation.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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that is all they do post h . it's just smokescreens, mis-direction , word games.... I personally think it is wrong to play games with God's written Word. this thing called fear of the Lord. guess they don't have that....
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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It might be prudent to include that man made doctrines and traditions are neither a shadow of things to come, nor are they the substance of Christ.
yes,
that's why "
food or drink, feasts, new moon festivals and sabbaths" cannot possibly be talking about some kind of 'human pharisetic tradition' presumptuously added to the Law.
 

posthuman

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I disagree that loving your neighbor is the base for all the other laws. I believe that Jesus taught through his Representatives that loving your neighbor is the Fulfillment of the other laws.

peace be with you!
earlier this week i went through a small bit of math regarding the two greatest commandments - or possibly singly, the greatest - being a "basis" for the Law, using the word "basis" in the algebraic sense.

you can find it here, if you're interested:
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-least-commandment.177641/post-3636877
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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yes,
that's why "
food or drink, feasts, new moon festivals and sabbaths" cannot possibly be talking about some kind of 'human pharisetic tradition' presumptuously added to the Law.
No, they are direct instructions from Jesus as the Word of God. They are not traditions of man, Rudiments of the World or Vain deceit we are told to "Beware of". This is why Paul says not to let anyone judge us for following God's Words, because they are God's Words, not mans.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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I didn't say it was wrong to work to earn money, but wrong to earn money to spend it on their own lusts.

if your conscience is clear about working to earn money to buy a boat for yourself, then go ahead and do it.

Something to ponder
is it right for a Christian to own a boat for their own pleasure when there are Christian brothers and sisters who don't have a Bible or clean drinking water.

A while back I was playing keyboard in the praise band at church. they wanted to buy a special unit that cost about $700 so I could hear everything through headphones, even though I was having no trouble hearing as the situation presently was.

At the same time a missionary based out of that same church was trying to collect money, pennies and loose change really, in order to buy Bibles for the students at the school in Haiti where she ministered. the Bibles cost $1 each.

that really hit me, 700 bucks for a toy or 700 Bibles for Haitians?
Christianity was introduced in Haiti in the 1400's. This country, according to the State Department, is roughly 90% Christian today.

The Episcopal church was introduced in Haiti in 1861 by a group of 110 African-Americans immigrants to Haiti. They established many churches and good schools, including the famous St. Vincent School, for many years, the only school for special aid children in Haiti, College St. Pierre, Episcopal University & the Holy Trinity School, which has been the premiere school of music in Haiti.

Protestant missionary groups have been in Haiti since the early 1800s. They also put emphasis on education and built some top schools, including Adventist University & Academy, College Bird, College Canado-Haitien, and etc. The first protestants missions were Methodists (1807), Episcopalians (1861) and Baptists with the largest growth. The adventists arrived later on in 1879, Assemblies of God (1945), Nazarean Church (1948), Salvation Army (1950), Pentecostal church (1962), Mennonite Church (1966) and Church of God (1969). The first Lutheran church in Haiti was founded in 1980. Protestantism has a great appeal to the lower masses, for many reasons, including use of Creole in services; many translated hymns address the people's dire economic and social conditions; more open participation in services through testimonies; and attaining of leadership positions among others. (Haiti Christianity.org)

The odds of a single Haitian not being able to find a Bible in Haiti are ZERO. But Mainstream Preachers have been using them as a funding source since the early 1900's.

Personally I think it is a huge scam to preach to others that Jesus wants us to give money to these ridiculously rich Mainstream Christian Franchises that have received Billions and Billions of dollars over the last 100 years from their "Missions" in Haiti. But the optics are hard to deny when they use pictures of starving children and preach that God can't save them unless you sacrifice your boat or piano and send the church even more cash.

It sure looks good on paper to say you sacrificed a boat or a piano for yourself to help bring even more Bibles to this Christian majority country. It sure does look righteous.

But it seems to me Jesus already addressed "these kind of works" in Matt. 7. And His instructions on how to share His Word don't seem to align with the business plan of many of these religious franchises.

Matt. 10:
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Much more profit in using these cities as a funding source.

Just 10% of the wealth of only the top 20 Preachers in Mainstream Christianity today would buy everyone in Haiti a dozen Bibles. But then how would they entice you to send more of your money to them?

Sending Bibles to Haiti***********

22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

How can a person help anyone if they don't believe His Words.
 

posthuman

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No, they are direct instructions from Jesus as the Word of God.
physical circumcision was a direct instruction from the mouth of God.

so was the literal sacrifice of a literal lamb for seder. however 1 Corinthians 5:7 calls Christ our passover lamb - what does that mean with regards to whether we are currently commanded to sacrifice a different lamb in His stead?
 

posthuman

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This is why Paul says not to let anyone judge us for following God's Words
. . let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink . .
a right understanding of this can in no way contradict this:
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not;
and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth:
for God hath received him.
(Romans 14:3)
God has received the one who eats all foods with thankfulness.

it's interesting that here, it's the one whose faith is weak, and therefore considers some things unclean to eat, whose heart may be inclined to judge others. not the one who eats. the one who eats, though their faith is stronger, may have an heart inclined to despise the one who doesn't, but they evidently don't need to be told not to judge them.


i wonder why?
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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you've omitted 7 verses between here and Col. 2:16 -- so no, that's not 'the context' -- it's only part of the introduction to it, and it's a whole paragraph away.

the things you left out, which things are what is actually adjacent to the passage, are profoundly important things which utterly demolish your argument -- they are the basis of the gospel of Christ crucified and risen:

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental principles of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through your faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; He has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

  • Christ is the fullness of God enfleshed
  • in Him you also have been made complete
  • He is over all other powers - nothing has authority over Him
  • He circumcised you with His own hand - not any human hand
  • Your entire flesh has been put off in Him
  • You are buried with Him
  • You are raised with Him
  • This was accomplished through your belief in His working
  • He made you alive while you were dead in uncircumcision, disobedience and trespass
  • He has forgiven all your sin
  • He cancelled all debt to the Law, nailing it to the cross
  • He disarmed and triumphed over all other power and authority over you
"Therefore"

because of these reasons in bullet-point above, do not let anyone judge you over diet, feasts, rosh chodesh or sabbath.
those things are shadows; the body, Christ.


those bullet-point facts do not justify believers judging other believers over diet.
they do not justify believers -- or anyone else -- judging believers over feasts.
over new moon festivals.
over sabbaths.


if you've got a doctrine that says believers should be judging other believers over sabbath, based on this verse, then you've either got Paul preaching different gospels to different churches, or you've got an enormous problem with Romans 14 because your doctrine inescapably also says we should be judging one another over food and drink.

and why are you not keeping Rosh Chodesh and equally judging believers over it ??
^That (in bold) is ad hominem, Postman. Has nothing to do with the position I'm taking.

Colossians 2 has nothing to do with believers judging believers in what they practiced. It has to do with not allowing philosophers and folks OUTSIDE of the faith judging believers on what they practice. Rudiments of the world means worldly thinking (not of the faith), traditions of men means those man-made practices not of the faith, philosophy means Greek/Pagan theoretical thinking (not of the faith). Without the proper thesis we can't properly understand the conclusion.

Question: what are the "ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men"?

----

Meanwhile, Romans 14 explains HOW believers (i.e. the body of Christ) are to judge other believers, particularly with mercy, especially with one who's weaker in the faith since we're not all at the same place. The context is set in the very first verse:

Romans 14
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
(Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters)

For instance, there are some believers who are vegetarians (or vegan) because they think eating an animal is repulsive or killing an animal for food is equally disturbing, and then there are others who are perfectly fine with eating any animal. And even today we find many vegetarians judging meat-eaters as "animal killers".

Paul says what each has chosen is between them and Yah and to not shame the meat-eater. Yet none of this contradicts or supersede the ruling that the meat-eater isn't to eat meat that's been strangled or with blood in it or meat sacrificed to a pagan gods.

Next, there are some believers who believe one day is more sacred than another (like the Sabbath), while other believers consider every day sacred. Paul is saying not to judge the one who believes one day is more sacred.

Romans 14:6
6 "Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord..."

Again, even this command doesn't contradict the fact that there are Holy days Yah has set apart.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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That (in bold) is ad hominem, Postman. Has nothing to do with the position I'm taking.
while it's true that i made the assumption that you're neither keeping Rosh Chodesh nor expressing the same judgement of others over it as you would over the sabbath, it has everything to do with your position.

your position is that the church is supposed to be judging people over 4 things:
diet
feasts
new moon festivals
sabbaths


those 4 are inseparable in the text. if you would take this as a basis to judge over the sabbath, you must also judge over the feasts, over food and drink, and over the new moon festival, or accept that you are being hypocritical.

i will tell you why i made the assumption:
sabbath is ubiquitously known.
kosher diet is ubiquitously known.
the feasts are very well known.
Rosh Chodesh is almost completely unknown.
so if you seriously have this position about Colossians - you're foolish to be talking about sabbath. new moon festival is where there is near total ignorance and since the text treats them all equally, anyone wise who holds this position should be concentrating their efforts on the thing that believers are so ignorant of, rather than what they by and large already know, and know well. does the Book not say that His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge?


i assumed that you are not a fool.
that assumption led to the logical conclusion that you neither keep nor encourage the keeping of Rosh Chodesh, but that you hold the position you express in order to satisfy a different agenda than the one the position itself implies.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Yet none of this contradicts or supersede the ruling that the meat-eater isn't to eat meat that's been strangled or with blood in it or meat sacrificed to a pagan gods
you have apparently not read 1 Corinthians 10:25 . . ?
 

posthuman

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Meanwhile, Romans 14 explains HOW believers (i.e. the body of Christ) are to judge other believers
yes, it does -- but you failed to quote it.

Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
To their own master, servants stand or fall.
And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

(Romans 14:4)
 

posthuman

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Colossians 2 has nothing to do with believers judging believers in what they practiced.
you directly contradict yourself:

So the original text - without any italics or punctuation added to it - actually authorizes (only) members of the body of Christ to judge which foods to eat, feast days to celebrate and how to respect the Sabbath.
are you like that guy i read about, who wakes up in the morning and seeing himself in the mirror, forgets who he is?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Meanwhile, Romans 14 explains HOW believers (i.e. the body of Christ) are to judge other believers
yep it sure does -- you have, like, actually read it, right?

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
(Romans 14:13)
 

posthuman

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something else the text explains is why dietary choices can be sin.

But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith;
and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
(Romans 14:23)

because they do not eat with faith.
notice that the text does not say,
"
because they don't obey the judgement of other believers"
and the text does not say,
"
because they are eating what the Sinai Covenant Law calls unclean"


the text says it has to do with faith.
which is belief.
which is not a physical property.
not a material object.
not a corporeal action or event.
not elemental.


the text says, everything that is not of faith is sin.

the scripture also says in another place:

The law is not based on faith; on the contrary,
it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
(Galatians 3:12)

now, that's profound!
the Law isn't sin, so what does this mean, what is not of faith is sin, and the Law is of faith?
the Law says "
do" and live. what does Christ say?


The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?
(John 11:25-26)
 

posthuman

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Rudiments of the world means worldly thinking
stoicheion: one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
Original Word: στοιχεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: stoicheion
Phonetic Spelling: (stoy-khi'-on)
Short Definition: a heavenly body, an element
Definition: (a) plur: the heavenly bodies, (b) a rudiment, an element, a rudimentary principle, an elementary rule.


same word used here by the same author:
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(Galatians 4:1-7)
the context here in Galatians is umistakeably likening being under the Law to the 'elements of the world' -- the tutor which had authority until Christ came.

so, if you're saying the Law of Moses is "worldly thinking" . .
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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while it's true that i made the assumption that you're neither keeping Rosh Chodesh nor expressing the same judgement of others over it as you would over the sabbath, it has everything to do with your position.

your position is that the church is supposed to be judging people over 4 things:
diet
feasts
new moon festivals
sabbaths


those 4 are inseparable in the text. if you would take this as a basis to judge over the sabbath, you must also judge over the feasts, over food and drink, and over the new moon festival, or accept that you are being hypocritical.

i will tell you why i made the assumption:
sabbath is ubiquitously known.
kosher diet is ubiquitously known.
the feasts are very well known.
Rosh Chodesh is almost completely unknown.
so if you seriously have this position about Colossians - you're foolish to be talking about sabbath. new moon festival is where there is near total ignorance and since the text treats them all equally, anyone wise who holds this position should be concentrating their efforts on the thing that believers are so ignorant of, rather than what they by and large already know, and know well. does the Book not say that His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge?


i assumed that you are not a fool.
that assumption led to the logical conclusion that you neither keep nor encourage the keeping of Rosh Chodesh, but that you hold the position you express in order to satisfy a different agenda than the one the position itself implies.
Firstly, posting multiple replies to a single post, rapid-fire, is the online version of Gish Galloping (also called proof by verbosity logical fallacy) and actually shows a weakness in stance Postman. It's clear you don't want me to reply anymore.

----

Proof by Verbosity is a logically fallacious argument that is far too complicated and verbose for an opponent to reasonably address all the particulars.

-----

Secondly, I notice in a few of your replies you've actually cherry picked parts of my statement without completing my thought. That's another fallacy called "incomplete evidence", which creates strawmen to beat against.


Third, you missed my position again particularly because you missed Paul's too.

My position (and Paul's) once again is:

Let no one OUTSIDE of the faith judge believers on what they practice; that the body of Christ is the only one AUTHORIZED to do it if anyone were to do it. Whether or how they should is NOT the point of Colossians 2. The point of Colossians 2 is UTTER RESTRICTION of the non-believer to do it. Completely lock the traditions of men OUT of the faith.

So there's no contradiction. You're creating a false dichotomy. For example:

A command that says "NEVER open your umbrella in doors" is NOT then a command that says, "Open your umbrella EVERY TIME you're outdoors". This is false.

-----

Now I think you'll be pleased to know I'm not going to reply to your thirty different some-odd posts because that would be ridiculous, so I'll just stop here.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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stoicheion: one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
Original Word: στοιχεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: stoicheion
Phonetic Spelling: (stoy-khi'-on)
Short Definition: a heavenly body, an element
Definition: (a) plur: the heavenly bodies, (b) a rudiment, an element, a rudimentary principle, an elementary rule.
same word also here:

But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
(Galatians 4:9)

were the believers in the Galatian churches turning to worldly thinking?

i suppose, in a manner of speaking.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Firstly, posting multiple replies to a single post,
long posts are statistically less likely to be read. it's a frequent complaint on forums ((welcome to CC BTW)).
my rationale is that i'm helping things stay organized so you or any other forum denizen can reply to a single point with facility, rather than search through 20 paragraphs and write 40 more in reply.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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long posts are statistically less likely to be read. it's a frequent complaint on forums ((welcome to CC BTW)).
my rationale is that i'm helping things stay organized so you or any other forum denizen can reply to a single point with facility, rather than search through 20 paragraphs and write 40 more in reply.
If you truly wanted that you'd make a counter point and then wait for a reply. We're both well aware of proper argument.