Christians for Peace

[BLC]

Baruch,

Your a piece of work. Your not married and probably don't have a daughter but let's assume you do. You take your daughter to these softball games and every week someone sitting on the bleachers on the opponents side keeps yelling out that your daughter is a whore and a slut and all kinds of other perverted things. You came to see your team play and all you hear throughout the game is this big mouth. You sit there and don't like what he is saying, it hurts your daughter, but you do nothing. It doesn't stop and others get bold and start to join in. It becomes a regular thing every week and all you do is turn the other cheek because you want to be different and a testimony and be holy like your heavenly Father is holy.

Your daughter goes to the mall with some friends to do some shopping and she and her friends get verbally assaulted again, but you are not there this time. These big mouths are not violating any law they are just having the freedom to express themselves in that manner. Your daughter comes home crying because she is embarrassed and humiliated and hurt. But you tell her that it's only persecution and we can't retaliate. The next time you take her to the game it happens again and again and it goes on for several years and you keep turning the other cheek. How noble and spiritual of you as a father and believer in Christ. Is that how you would behave yourself in relationship to your daughter with this kind of assault is taking place continually. Are you listening to God for wisdom or are you sticking with your rigid discipline to what you know and believe as a pacifist? Shame on you for being a person with no backbone. You should have been in that person's face after the first time, laying your life down for your daughter, and be willing to shut his mouth for him if he would not shut it voluntarily.

You may not like what I have to say and you can hide behind your virtual spiritual reality, but if that is how you would behave, then your mother raised a pacifist with no spiritual integrity and no love for the weak and defenseless. You need to wake up and snap out of your spiritual lethargy.

 

[Baruch]

Baruch,

Your a piece of work. Your not married and probably don't have a daughter but let's assume you do. You take your daughter to these softball games and every week someone sitting on the bleachers on the opponents side keeps yelling out that your daughter is a whore and a slut and all kinds of other perverted things. You came to see your team play and all you hear throughout the game is this big mouth. You sit there and don't like what he is saying, it hurts your daughter, but you do nothing. It doesn't stop and others get bold and start to join in. It becomes a regular thing every week and all you do is turn the other cheek because you want to be different and a testimony and be holy like your heavenly Father is holy.

Your daughter goes to the mall with some friends to do some shopping and she and her friends get verbally assaulted again, but you are not there this time. These big mouths are not violating any law they are just having the freedom to express themselves in that manner. Your daughter comes home crying because she is embarrassed and humiliated and hurt. But you tell her that it's only persecution and we can't retaliate. The next time you take her to the game it happens again and again and it goes on for several years and you keep turning the other cheek. How noble and spiritual of you as a father and believer in Christ. Is that how you would behave yourself in relationship to your daughter with this kind of assault is taking place continually. Are you listening to God for wisdom or are you sticking with your rigid discipline to what you know and believe as a pacifist? Shame on you for being a person with no backbone. You should have been in that person's face after the first time, laying your life down for your daughter, and be willing to shut his mouth for him if he would not shut it voluntarily.

You may not like what I have to say and you can hide behind your virtual spiritual reality, but if that is how you would behave, then your mother raised a pacifist with no spiritual integrity and no love for the weak and defenseless. You need to wake up and snap out of your spiritual lethargy.

Is that what happened or are you deflecting from the question again with this imaginary scenario?

All I know is what Jesus has said.

And yes, I am a piece of work as in His workmanship.

Again, I ask you to share the tale of the baseball brawl as to what it was that declared a "righteous beating" from you and your team.

What significance of feeling the Presence of God in the event other than it felt good to commit retaliation?

For all the hype that Pentecostals and Charismatics put on a continual filling of the Spirit and being empowered by these manifestations.... what difference are there as standing apart from the world?

Psalm 37:

1Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
3Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
5Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
6And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
7Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
12The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
14The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
16A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
17For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
21The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
22For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
23The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
24Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
27Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
30The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
31The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
32The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
34Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
37Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
38But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
39But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

 

[monty28]

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36 Words of Christ
His disciples said they had two already, and He told them that that was enough. No one has addressed this scripture, instead all the responses deal with our feelings or gut instinct. I must admit, my own instinct says to not be pushed too hard into a corner and to fight, but in the face of scripture I will do my very best to go against my natural inclinations.
Later in the garden of Gethsemane He told Peter to put away his sword, and that He who lives by the sword must also die by it, but in this situation they were surrounded by Roman soldiers and would have no chance of survival. You can (prayerfully) interpret this passage however you like, but consider... why would Jesus let Peter even posess a sword in the first place if not to defend himself and his companions? Why would He tell His apostles to sell their garment and buy a sword?
When the apostles said that they already had two swords, Jesus said that that was enough. With two swords a group could not realistically muster up an offensive war party, but they could, however, defend against theives and robbers on a dangerous desert road far from civilization.
Please feel free to argue with this, if you have any better ideas I need to know them because I only care about what the SCRIPTURE REALLY SAYS, not gut instinct or what "religion" has taught throughout the years.
Groundhog, I think you have brought up a very important topic that will be more and more relevant to Americans sooner rather than later, and that this issue MUST me fully resolved. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Baruch]

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36 Words of Christ
His disciples said they had two already, and He told them that that was enough. No one has addressed this scripture, instead all the responses deal with our feelings or gut instinct. I must admit, my own instinct says to not be pushed too hard into a corner and to fight, but in the face of scripture I will do my very best to go against my natural inclinations.
Later in the garden of Gethsemane He told Peter to put away his sword, and that He who lives by the sword must also die by it, but in this situation they were surrounded by Roman soldiers and would have no chance of survival. You can (prayerfully) interpret this passage however you like, but consider... why would Jesus let Peter even posess a sword in the first place if not to defend himself and his companions? Why would He tell His apostles to sell their garment and buy a sword?
When the apostles said that they already had two swords, Jesus said that that was enough. With two swords a group could not realistically muster up an offensive war party, but they could, however, defend against theives and robbers on a dangerous desert road far from civilization.
Please feel free to argue with this, if you have any better ideas I need to know them because I only care about what the SCRIPTURE REALLY SAYS, not gut instinct or what "religion" has taught throughout the years.
Groundhog, I think you have brought up a very important topic that will be more and more relevant to Americans sooner rather than later, and that this issue MUST me fully resolved. Thanks for bringing it up.

Luke 22:33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. 35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus was referring to the urgency of the moment that was coming as to Peter denying the Lord three times and as to the Lord being given up to be crucified with the transgressors. He was not really preaching violence as it was obvious in the Garden. Remember that He said it was enough for having two swords so it couldn't have been about warring as if they were to be outnumbered in the Garden, else the Lord would have said.. "no.. you need more", and certainly, He did not have to heal the guard's ear if it was really about us versus them kind of deal.

What the Lord was trying to convey was that when the disciples were serving Him on their mission trips as in the event of Matthew 10, a time was coming when they will feel as if they lacked something from the Lord in serving Him, and so the saying about buying a sword was to speak of a coming event that was destined to happen so that even by two swords, it could not have been prevented by the disciples, for surely, the disciples knew how a few hundred men can slay huge armies so nothing would have been impossible for God to use two disciples by the sword to prevent it as Jesus confirmed it as being enough if it was God's will and yet also confirmed that it was meant to be... as it is obvious how things turned out.

 

[Thaddaeus]

weel I don't know if this has been covered before But here goes:;

1ti 5:7And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.1ti 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.



Now I know in general this verse is referring as to provide, would mean our daily needs to survive, such as food and shelter, but wouldn't that also include protection to provide that one might substain life would also be good to protect that one might keep Life. isn't that the job of a good shepard which the good shepard also ordained shepards inthis life to take care/ pretect their flock, against the wolves. we learn from david that shepards were well trianed to use the the weapons they had such as the sling shot

 

[Baruch]

weel I don't know if this has been covered before But here goes:;

1ti 5:7And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.1ti 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Now I know in general this verse is referring as to provide, would mean our daily needs to survive, such as food and shelter, but wouldn't that also include protection to provide that one might substain life would also be good to protect that one might keep Life. isn't that the job of a good shepard which the good shepard also ordained shepards inthis life to take care/ pretect their flock, against the wolves. we learn from david that shepards were well trianed to use the the weapons they had such as the sling shot

Matthew 24:43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

One could use the above verse about not suffering a thief to break through, but I do not believe anyone is applying that verse religiously as to watch while the family sleeps.

In your reply in Abing's Do's and Don't's thread, I believe it is the answer I was trying to give in this thread:

Don't rely on self
Do trust in the Lord

So as much as believers are chastising this thread as a pacifist appeal, I really believe that the reason why Jesus' own words were in exhorting for us to love our enemies as He loved us was to show trust in the Lord from what the media has been programming us otherwise in how to respond in the world.

Psalm 91:10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

1 Corinthians 10: 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


Romans 12:17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I just know that if God provided an alert of someone's house being broken into and an opportunity for an escape with the whole family is being provided, then the husband and father of that family should take it with the family instead of allowing pride to come in and take vengeance on the home invader. Let the police handle it. If the provider of the home gets killed and the home invader gets away, then not only is he not providing for the house anymore, but the "family" is one less loving person.

As it is, the above can only happen if God is willing and the believer trust God to provide that escape. Bad things happen to anyone, irregardless if you are a believer or not, but it is how we face the uncertainty of life.... by faith or by boasting of resorting to our own power to deal with a threat that has not come yet? Do we trust God to provide for us and take care of us or do we voice Rambo like responses that would be no different than evil communication?

James 4: 13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Let us be witnesses of our faith in Him and voice His teachiings with trust that the Lord will help us to live as His as He will do it. Let us not worry about tomorrow for the day we are in is evil enough on its own. Do we lean on Him to help us live that way or do we voice contrariness towards our trust in Him?

 

[monty28]

Luke 22:33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. 35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus was referring to the urgency of the moment that was coming as to Peter denying the Lord three times and as to the Lord being given up to be crucified with the transgressors. He was not really preaching violence as it was obvious in the Garden. Remember that He said it was enough for having two swords so it couldn't have been about warring as if they were to be outnumbered in the Garden, else the Lord would have said.. "no.. you need more", and certainly, He did not have to heal the guard's ear if it was really about us versus them kind of deal.

What the Lord was trying to convey was that when the disciples were serving Him on their mission trips as in the event of Matthew 10, a time was coming when they will feel as if they lacked something from the Lord in serving Him, and so the saying about buying a sword was to speak of a coming event that was destined to happen so that even by two swords, it could not have been prevented by the disciples, for surely, the disciples knew how a few hundred men can slay huge armies so nothing would have been impossible for God to use two disciples by the sword to prevent it as Jesus confirmed it as being enough if it was God's will and yet also confirmed that it was meant to be... as it is obvious how things turned out.

That may well be the case, although I respectfully disagree (except about Jesus not preaching offensive violence, I totally agree there), but Jesus still told His disciples to buy a sword. I believe He was telling them that a change was coming, that He would not be with them any longer. The phrase "But now" denotes a different time and a different situation, and that their missions would be undertaken without Christ physically with them, and it is followed by a command. He did not mention feeling a lack of anything, He explicitly told them to take their purses and script, and to aquire a sword, and I think He healed the guard to both show compassion and to let them know that He is who He said He was. (I tend to read the Bible completely and totally literally except in the case of an "as", or a "like", or any other obvious simile first, and then search for the deeper meaning... that is a question of interpretation and is probably different for everyone.) If this was a metaphorical statement (I don't presume to put words in my Lord's mouth, please bear with me) and His message was about absolute nonviolence even in the face of death wouldn't He use a different metaphor? Even more to the point, why did He allow Peter to carry a sword in the first place, in the presense of the Son of God, no less. I agree with you up to a point, we are to trust in God in all situations and follow a peaceful path, even unto humiliation and pain, and NEVER indulge in offensive aggression, but in a life and death situation God also provided us with the flight or fight, adrenaline instinct, and the ability to run is not always there. That doesn't mean to train for a fight or look for trouble, or to carry weapons for that matter (although I keep one in my home), but I speak of an automatic response to imminent danger.
Also, I read one of your arguments about letting the police handle a situation, but what if the police officer is a Christian? Isn't expecting others to do your violence hypocritical? There were no police in Jesus' time, and in any case police cannot protect you in your home or on the street (in most situations), all they are able to do is track down the people that have hurt you already. They are not instant, and defensive violent action usually happens in the blink of an eye. Please understand that I'm not trying to pound your argument, but I do not believe that absolute pacifism in the face of death is biblically sound. We don't retaliate, in that you are absolutely correct, and we DO pray for our enemies, (and when he's not trying to kill me I'll give him a drink) but what I speak of is that split second desision that will determine whether you are there to minister tomorrow or not. It is a rare occurance, most never ever have to deal with it, thank God. With the exception of Christian persecution, in which case we should take it on the chin and be happy about it as a witness to Christ, I believe that self defense of yourself and anyone who cannot defend themselves against the threat of death is the biblical answer to the question. Otherwise I feel that Jesus would have told Peter to lose the sword long before Gethsemane. The good news is, that soon our glorious Lord will show us what we need to know Himself, and will explain every jot and tittle, and for that I thank Him and praise Him. Then, my friend, this will be a question that we no longer have to consider! Spears into pruning hooks!
With respect, Monty28

 

[SamIam]

Whiteknite, if I may without offending... movies are part of the reason that we're in this violent mess anyway. Desensitizing and socially conditioning kids (and adults) to accept violence as a form of entertainment is one of Satans primary tools. I haven't seen any movies about Jesus on primetime, but I can't count the number of gunshots I heard on tv this week. Just saying... life imitates art, and art imitates life, it goes both ways... feeds itself

do you think that if violence was not in movies that we would still not be a violent society. Look at the voilence that occured around the world before there was even television. The salem witch trials, The holocaust, Lizzy borden. I think to say that movies are a part of the reason we are in the violent mess were in is a little off

 

[Grimaldus]

Baruch,

Your a piece of work. Your not married and probably don't have a daughter but let's assume you do. You take your daughter to these softball games and every week someone sitting on the bleachers on the opponents side keeps yelling out that your daughter is a whore and a slut and all kinds of other perverted things. You came to see your team play and all you hear throughout the game is this big mouth. You sit there and don't like what he is saying, it hurts your daughter, but you do nothing. It doesn't stop and others get bold and start to join in. It becomes a regular thing every week and all you do is turn the other cheek because you want to be different and a testimony and be holy like your heavenly Father is holy.

Your daughter goes to the mall with some friends to do some shopping and she and her friends get verbally assaulted again, but you are not there this time. These big mouths are not violating any law they are just having the freedom to express themselves in that manner. Your daughter comes home crying because she is embarrassed and humiliated and hurt. But you tell her that it's only persecution and we can't retaliate. The next time you take her to the game it happens again and again and it goes on for several years and you keep turning the other cheek. How noble and spiritual of you as a father and believer in Christ. Is that how you would behave yourself in relationship to your daughter with this kind of assault is taking place continually. Are you listening to God for wisdom or are you sticking with your rigid discipline to what you know and believe as a pacifist? Shame on you for being a person with no backbone. You should have been in that person's face after the first time, laying your life down for your daughter, and be willing to shut his mouth for him if he would not shut it voluntarily.

You may not like what I have to say and you can hide behind your virtual spiritual reality, but if that is how you would behave, then your mother raised a pacifist with no spiritual integrity and no love for the weak and defenseless. You need to wake up and snap out of your spiritual lethargy.

I think harrassement is a crime

 

[SamIam]

My wife or daughter is being attacked.

I have three choices:

1. Engage in no violence. Tell her "turn the other cheek, honey" while I watch, and say "Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do."

2. Call the police and let them do the violence instead of me (though actually it will probably be too late by the time they arrive).

3. As an act of mercy on my wife/daughter, and as a duty to be her protector, defend her by carrying out some violent act against the attacker(s).

Which would the Lord prefer?

I noticed no one answered you but instead quoted endless scripture verses....... If someone ever attacked my family i would be more than willing to commit an act of violence on their behalf. To defend them. I do not believe god would have anyone stand there and watch your wife or children be attacked when there is some way you can step in on their behalf and help them... this is just my take on it.

 

[Grimaldus]

I noticed no one answered you but instead quoted endless scripture verses....... If someone ever attacked my family i would be more than willing to commit an act of violence on their behalf. To defend them. I do not believe god would have anyone stand there and watch your wife or children be attacked when there is some way you can step in on their behalf and help them... this is just my take on it.

I'm sorry that I can't provide any specific refference, but wasn't there a story in the bible where a man gave both of his daughters to be raped by an angry mob so that angels wouldn't? If god wanted peole to stand up like you said, god would have made him triumph without giving up his daughters.

 

[SamIam]

I'm sorry that I can't provide any specific refference, but wasn't there a story in the bible where a man gave both of his daughters to be raped by an angry mob so that angels wouldn't? If god wanted peole to stand up like you said, god would have made him triumph without giving up his daughters.

so let me get this straight grimaldus... basically what your saying is this... When one day you are married and say your wife just had your first child..... someone broke into your house.. took your newborn baby and started punching it....... you would just stand there???? and let your poor defensless newborn baby be beaten to death, while you stand there watching it scream and cry...... or even this.... your daughter you and your wife are out... someone comes up and attacks them.... you would stand there and watch while your wife and your child are screaming for you to help them while they are being attacked..... your daughters standing there screaming daddy.... and you just look at her.. sorry honey this is what god wants....................god help your family because one day im sure you wont

 

[Grimaldus]

Nope, I'm an athiest. Fighting's cool w/ me

 

[SamIam]

I'm sorry that I can't provide any specific refference, but wasn't there a story in the bible where a man gave both of his daughters to be raped by an angry mob so that angels wouldn't? If god wanted peole to stand up like you said, god would have made him triumph without giving up his daughters.

apparently it is not...... why quote scripture when your an athiest... your completely contridicting yourself......

 

[Grimaldus]

Just saying, that is written in the bible. Agree or disagree that's what's written.

 

[SamIam]

and im just sayin... you bein atheist and all.... . why quote scripture about something you dont even believe yourself....... why say something out of the bible to back up something you dont even really believe........ makes ZERO sense...... but hey.... if thats your thing okay

 

[Ancilla]

Well, I haven't read this whole thread but it is interesting. Pacisfism used to be a commonly held Christian value. Like I have friends who's grandparents didn't fight in World War II because they were Mennonites who were pacifists. But the new Christian thing is supporting those in the military (that happens here too. My old church put together care packages for Canadian soldiers fighting in Afghanistan). Pacifisim was all the rage after World War I, but World War II taught us that pacifism often means letting the bad guy win. So our mission in Afghanistan is (as we see it) liberating the people from the Taliban (and I do support the idea of spending them care packages). But that's so tricky though because no matter how oppressive a government is, you can't say that 100% of the people are opposed to it. It's never that simple. If a government truly had zero support, it wouldn't be able to stay in power. Of course what often happens when you have a corrupt government is that you have an upper class who benefit from it and innocent people who are being taken advantage of (but they may not fully understand this because of propaganda). Basically, this is the way I see it. Because World War II was a "justifiable war" many Christians after that have thought of wars that Americans got involved in as justifiable.

See, the Bible tells us to turn the other cheek. It also tells us to seek justice for the poor. I'm not surprised that you guys aren't in agreement about whether or not God would want a man to use violence to defend his wife from inevitable danger. I don't know the answer. This is the way I see it: When YOU are being hit, YOU turn the other cheek. When someone else is being hit, the appropriate way to respond is up for debate. I also would rather let a bad guy get away with doing something bad then do something bad myself. I think too often we sin in an effort to prevent someone else from sinning and think that's ok. I have also heard too many Christians seek justice for themselves while telling others to turn the other cheek. THAT IS NOT OK.

Here's the bottom line: while I think it's much too simplistic to say that Christians should never participate in war, I think Christians have been far too accepting of war. My former pastor said that during the Cold War he talked to someone who assumed that if one was a Christian they were in favour of the arms race. I don't know how a Christian could ever be in favour of nuclear weapons regardless of the circumstances. That also goes for civilian hand gun ownership and land mines and capital punishment.

Oh, and I hate it when people use the Old Testament as justification for war. I mean I hate it when Christians do it. Jews are welcome to do that. But Jesus gave us a new commandment to love those who hate us!

 

[NiteGem]

I’ve found this thread very interesting, with lots of good points to consider. I’d like to contribute a couple of my thoughts.

The public brawl scenario describes criminal behavior…ie. assault and battery, at least in New York State. (And, of course, once the state is done filing criminal charges and imposing sentences, then the civil lawsuits could commence.)

Deliberately breaking state law does not sound like Christian behavior to me.

Also, I read one of your arguments about letting the police handle a situation, but what if the police officer is a Christian? Isn't expecting others to do your violence hypocritical?

This makes no sense to me. Police officers are trained and paid to protect and serve. If a Christian police officer has a problem committing “violence” he* needs to find a different profession, for his own sake, the sake of his partner, and for the sake of the citizens of that community.

And just because a (tax paying) citizen calls the police for help does not necessary mean violence will result.

I honestly do not know how I would physically respond if my life was in imminent danger. However, I have had to deal with certain unpleasant events before, and I did not hesitate to contact the police.

* or she

 

[EmersonWolfe]

I'm sorry that I can't provide any specific refference, but wasn't there a story in the bible where a man gave both of his daughters to be raped by an angry mob so that angels wouldn't? If god wanted peole to stand up like you said, god would have made him triumph without giving up his daughters.

Ha, Grimaldus, just 'cause something is written in the Bible, doesn't mean God condones it... it just means it happened. Lot's family was a little messed up, anyway (probably because of where they lived). After they escaped, his daughters wanted to sleep with him to preserve the family line... nowhere does it say God condoned this family and their sick ways... just that they were that way

 

[SamIam]

Peace to the middle east...... Peace when you sit in yo seat... love peace and chicken grease................

I believe this is truly the foundations for life.