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T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#61
The scripture I have not seen quoted is how Peter said God forbid that he should be persecuted and what did Jesus say?!?

Get Behind me Satan...you are setting your mind on the things of men and NOT on the things of God....

So, if you apply this same principle to the physically defenseless or those the world persecutes, what do you get? We are not suppose to physically defend people from being persecuted in this world for being Christian...

as much as a part of me wants, and I do not think a part of anyone is 100% for letting a Christian be crucified (in whatever way it occurs),--it is what Jesus demanded of Peter when he was arrested...

I am almost a complete pacifist in a certain stance...though I would let myself be hurt to defend another...but not violence...

Thats how I see it now..

God's light and refuge to us all
tony

ps...Lot when he followed God was going to let his wife and daughters be violated to prevent the evil city (Sodom?) from commiting the God forsaken act of wanting to have sex with the Angels that were his guests...
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#62
That may well be the case, although I respectfully disagree (except about Jesus not preaching offensive violence, I totally agree there), but Jesus still told His disciples to buy a sword. I believe He was telling them that a change was coming, that He would not be with them any longer. The phrase "But now" denotes a different time and a different situation, and that their missions would be undertaken without Christ physically with them, and it is followed by a command. He did not mention feeling a lack of anything, He explicitly told them to take their purses and script, and to aquire a sword, and I think He healed the guard to both show compassion and to let them know that He is who He said He was. (I tend to read the Bible completely and totally literally except in the case of an "as", or a "like", or any other obvious simile first, and then search for the deeper meaning... that is a question of interpretation and is probably different for everyone.) If this was a metaphorical statement (I don't presume to put words in my Lord's mouth, please bear with me) and His message was about absolute nonviolence even in the face of death wouldn't He use a different metaphor? Even more to the point, why did He allow Peter to carry a sword in the first place, in the presense of the Son of God, no less. I agree with you up to a point, we are to trust in God in all situations and follow a peaceful path, even unto humiliation and pain, and NEVER indulge in offensive aggression, but in a life and death situation God also provided us with the flight or fight, adrenaline instinct, and the ability to run is not always there. That doesn't mean to train for a fight or look for trouble, or to carry weapons for that matter (although I keep one in my home), but I speak of an automatic response to imminent danger.
Thanks for sharing your view on the matter. Just know that even though I posted what Jesus had said, we are not under the letter as if I had any confidence in the flesh of anyone doing what Jesus had taught. Therefore faith in God comes in. If the just shall live by faith, and we are not to worry about tomorrow, then why worry about any worst case scenario event when we are trusting Him to direct our footsteps away from situations whch may be more than we are able to bear.

In the great tribulation, and it boggles the American christian minds regarding this, the Lord have given this instruction to the point of producing this workmanship in them.

Revelation 13: 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 12: 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

All those that receive the mark and worship the beast are doomed to the Lake of Fire so it's like of all people we should be allowed to kill, why not them when they are coming after any saint? But yet, they loved not their lives unto death. I can only see God at work to supercharge a believer to forego the American way and die the christian way.

Also, I read one of your arguments about letting the police handle a situation, but what if the police officer is a Christian?
I believe another poster had addressed this, but may I add that all governing authorities have been established by God to bring terror to evil. Granted, there have been evil governments in the past by which other nations including our own, rose to meet and put down, but as a police officer, he bears the sword not in vain. Bad guys should be running when they see or hear them.

Makes me wonder what would happen if homes had that distant police siren approaching on their stereo system to activate by remote to make the thieves take off? Even if the thieves knew there were thieves deterrant devices like that in the homes, they couldn't chance it not to be real.

Anyway.. any military or police officer are bearing the sword of their government and thus if they do not do the job, they are in the wrong line of work.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#63
I think harrassement is a crime
It is a crime. One would think that issuing slanerous names would be cause for suing someone for defamation of character.

Course, one would say that we are not even to sue, but if push comes to shove, then take the threat of suing the person route to shut him/them up. If he or them do not take the legal threat seriously enough, calling the police and having them get witnesses' statements is a sure fire way to put an end to it pronto. Be kind of hard for the public to deny the event if the slanderers are doing it so vocally that it incites the entire team to riot. One would think that the police would have been called in ahead of time to arrest those for inciting a riot as well as disturbing the peace.

Sometimes I wonder about tolerance of others in turning the other cheek. Is it really turning the other cheek if one is feeling like a volcano ready to erupt? I would think that of any believer feels like that, then maybe it is time to defuse the volcano by taking some actions like a verbal rebuke or a notification of the proper authority.

If a believer will rebuke someone sharply in the faith to correct them; then why not rebuke those that are heading in the wrong direction as a member of the community or as a good sportsman?

But I wasn't there, and though the tale is not forthcoming, I cannot say that I would never do such a thing because that would be boasting of myself for I am where I am because of Christ Jesus. I can look back alot at trespasses that I did not respond to accordingly and yet looking back, I can get vehemously mad at the event. I debase myself for being slow to anger, but I shouldn't because that is His workmanship in me in havbing me be a witness of Him to love others as He loved me in that He doed for me while I was yet a sinner. So I just thank the Lord for where I am with Him.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#64
do you think that if violence was not in movies that we would still not be a violent society. Look at the voilence that occured around the world before there was even television. The salem witch trials, The holocaust, Lizzy borden. I think to say that movies are a part of the reason we are in the violent mess were in is a little off
It is ageeable that violence was in the world without the help of the media, but can we say that the media doesn't help in the promoting of the attitude of seeking vengeance?

Video games has its environmental themes as well.

In all respect, one cannot say that we cannot watch telvision or not listen to certain music or not have that issue of Swimsuit Edition of Sports Illustrated around because to him that it is sin, it is sin.

In other words...

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Like alcohol. Some know not to get drunk by it. Some know the limit without ever crossing it. And yet, some know that another may not be so grounded in the Word against getting drunk. Do we have to worry about it? No. Do we have to be attentive when the Lord brings it to our attention that a brother is an alcoholic? Oh yeah.

If a believer knows it is tempting him or even causing him to sin, then they under the guidance of their Good Shepherd in Whom they truist, they would be informed by Him not to do it as He will lead us away from it to something else.

But yet as we are to be a witness of Him, we need to be aware that what comes in the eyes and ears as being observed by others, will also be taken in account of you as a witness of Him.

Matthew 6:21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

And that was just towards how we would look at money or other things of material value down here. So as a witness to believers as well, dare we listen to that which may cause a brother to stumble or sin?

1 Corinthians 10:23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

I had played the video game for free on thsi computer called "Fate". I can really like the game because you see advancement and accomplishments and it makes you feel pride in where you are in the game, but I know that it is all vanity. You can reach level 46 and then what? Nothing in light of eternity. All that we accomplish down here is vanity as the only thing worth taking is what Christ has done for us and through us by Whom we shall give the glory to in Heaven.

I wondered if the raptured had come, would I be so involved in the game that I would say.. "Not now, Lord, I am almost done with level 46!" Scary a thought. I trust the Lord to not have me in any situation or doing anything that would neglect such a high calling of Christ.

So pretty much the bottomline is, listen to Jesus if He should tell you to start pruning away some of those things we have been accepting through the media when it is having an affect on us as we trust Him that even of we made a mistake, no matter what we purpose in our hearts to do, He will direct our footsteps. That is what I have come to know and trust in Jesus Christ and that is by the grace of God too.
 
B

beefy

Guest
#65
First off, I want to commend the love for others that is shown by the men or women in the military. Jesus says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Matthew 15:13

By this willingness to sacrifice one's life for others by serving in the military, I commend them all. That kind of love is worthy to be praised.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11
They are good shepherds too, because they are willing to lay down their lives for the sheep. I praise them for that. There is no greater love than the love they have shown.

But, I need to point out something to you. Notice how the verse says "lay down his life for his friends," and he does not say "take another's life for his friends."

It is more far more honorable to sacrifice your life for someone else than it is to take the life of someone else, that's what I am trying to say.

Unfortunately, When one is in the military, one may engage in acts which are quite contrary to Jesus' words.

When Jesus says, "love your enemies,"(Matthew 5:44) how can one love show love to their enemy as they rip out their guts with a bayonet?

When Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you," (Luke 6:27)how can one kill someone else and consider it to be doing them any good?

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33

Truly, if anyone seeks to save his life (by killing someone who threatens his life), they will lose it. But those that will lose their lives, as did Jesus' disciples, will preserve their eternal life.

Why do some Christians seek to save their lives? Don't they know they will lose it?

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."Matthew 7:12

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Unless you would desire men to bomb your home and blow your brians out with a shotgun, you should not do it unto them. You should love as you would have others love you. You should show should mercy as you would have others show mercy to you. You should forgive others as you would have them forgive you.

There have been men and women in the military who are clearly not following the golden rule. Instead, they are "doing unto others" (bombing, shooting, stabbing) simply because they do not want the Iraqis to do the same to them. They don't want to be bombed or killed, therefore they are killing and bombing Iraqis because they or the ones they are defending are afraid of being bombed or killed themselves.

Some people who kill other people in their military occupation, really need to think about what they are doing.

These people who kill in the military make thousands of mothers childless, children fatherless, and countless untold numbers of grieving widows. There is nothing honorable about that. That is what these people are trained to do. Trained to kill. They bring pain, grief, and suffering to their enemies. But Jesus told us to love our enemies instead, and to do good to those who hate us.

In short, what I have to say is this. Jesus reached out to the fatherless and widows. The Bible says to defend the cause of the fatherless and the widow. The people in the military do not do that. They only compound the problem, for by killing people, they serve only to create more fatherless children and more widows. This is not defending the cause of the widow and the fatherless, this is merely creating more widows and fatherless children for us to reach out to. And I assure you that it will be most difficult to share the gospel and God's love with a grieving family if one has just finished killing their father, who was a follower of radical Islam. They will not have seen the love of God in you at all, because you have just finished killing the one they loved and cherished, regardless of how misguided his beliefs were.

To be Christian means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about taking another's life just to save your own. Is their life worth less than the life of your family? Are they not just as loved by God as you? Is their life worth less than your country? Is their life worth less than your freedom?

No. God loves us, all of us. God forgave us when we deserved death. He took away the punishment for our transgressions. If we do not forgive our own transgressors in the same way, how then can we represent God's love to the world?

The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.

Imitate me as I imitate Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1

But what did they say? "To live is Christ and to die is gain." Phillipians 1:21 Death is gain, my friend.

Unless you wish to argue that you can show love to an enemy by blowing their head off, then you cannot defend the killing of others. Jesus did not make an exception to the command, "Love your enemy."

And neither did Paul. Let's look at what he said, immediately after Romans 13:1-7

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:8-10

You see? Love is the fulfilling of the law. Jesus established that we are to love our neighbor, and our enemies are our neighbors too, as evidenced when he said, "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you."

If "love worketh no ill to his neighbor," then love certainly cannot kill his neighbor (aka enemy). Hitler's actions worked ill to his neighbors. Killing other people is working ill to them. Therefore it is against God's law, for "love is the fulfilling of the law." You cannot kill somone out of love. Therefore it does not fulfill the law. For "Love is the fulfilling of the law."

Another thing. Did you know that God is "kind unto the evil and the unthankful?" We are commanded to be just like Him.

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." Luke 6:35

"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:36

We are supposed to forgive the trespasses of others, every time, up to 77 times and beyond.

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 14:15

If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. And we all have sinned. The wages of sin is death. When God forgives us, he takes away our punishment of eternal death. So too are we to forgive others, and take away their punishment that they so justly deserve, so that they will see the mercy of God. For we are to be as merciful as God is merciful.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22

If we bomb and shoot and stab after only one trespass against us, instead of forgiving, how then shall we be able to forgive seventy-seven times? Out transgressor will be dead after the first trespass, and we will not have shown forgiveness at all!

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40

I think we can all agree that terrorists, rapists, and murderers are among the "least of these" that Jesus speaks of.

They are certainly not among "the greatest of these," now are they?

After all, they are in jail, and need to be visited. When we show love to these people, we are showing love to Christ. If we condemn these people, we are condemning Christ. If we kill these people, we are killing Christ!

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." matthew 25:45

If we do not show love to these people, we do not show love to Christ. They are the "least of these," and we must show love to them, out of love for Christ.

If you or any other Christian does not heed these clear commands that Jesus gave, you will have disobeyed Him. Only those that love Him will obey these commands.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:5

I would suggest that you defend yourself and the ones you love nonviolently. If I were in a situation where my family members might be killed, and there was no reasoning with the attacker, I hope I would put myself between them and the bullet, so that they may have time to escape.

I would also "do good to those who hate you," as Jesus said. Instead of reacting in anger, I would try to relate to the gunman in some way, recognizing that the people who usually rob homes and kill families are those that are living in poverty. If I had financial resources to give them, I would. Not to appease them, but to show them I care. Believe it or not, it is pretty difficult for a gunman who came in your home to loot and plunder the home if the family is giving him their possesions anyway.

Remember how Jesus says, "Bless those who curse you?" I've tried this before. It works wonders. The person cursing you simply does not know how to respond to it. It shows them that you are different, that Christ has worked a miracle in your life. That is the beauty of not "repaying evil for evil, but overcome evil with good."

"Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." 1 Peter 3:9

"Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:17-21

Do not repay evil for evil. So, if someone comes to kill you (which is an evil thing), should you repay them by killing them (doing the same evil thing they planned to do, except beating them to the punch?)

If you kill those who would kill you, are you not doing the same thing that they set out to do? Are you not just as equally responsible for the pain and anguish that their family will face when they learn of their child's death? Are you not still responsible for taking that person's one chance for salvation away from them? Have you not sent that person (who is probably not saved) straight to Hell, just so that you can live a little longer on this earth? Should you not rather look forward to heaven, and not be afraid if someone wishes to send you home to your Father?

Overcome evil with good. I can almost guarantee you that if someone comes to raid your home, they will be both hungry and thirsty. Offer them something to eat. Give them something to drink. Give them a gift of some sort. Be hospitable to him. If you and your family are saved, then you truly have nothing to lose if he refuses and sends you all to heaven.

For we are Christians, disciples of Christ, and our weapons are not carnal...

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." 2 Corithians 10:3-6

We do not fight against flesh and blood:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

I want the soldiers back home safe as much as you do. I wish them nothing but joy and happiness in this life, and I know they have the best of intentions. God bless the troops, yes, but God bless our enemies too, and all those that would seek to kill us and curse the name of our country. Bless those who curse you, (Matthew 5:44) remember?
 
B

beefy

Guest
#66
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Let's pretend that you said, " We have the right to defend ourselves violently." [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You do know that that is exactly what the twelve diciples of Jesus and the early church did, right? Refused to defend themselves? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here is how the diciples of Christ died. All of them refused to defend themselves, and Peter even cried out "Father forgive them!" as he died. You are to follow their example, as they followed the example of Christ. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Simon Peter was crucified upside down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Philip was also crucified upside down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Batholomew was flayed alive and then crucified upside down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- James (son of Zebedee) was executed by sword. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- James (son of Alphaeus) was crucified and the body sawed to pieces. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- John died of natural causes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Matthew was possibly murdered. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Simon the Canaanite was executed by saw. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Judas Thomas was executed by spear. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Judas Iscariot hanged himself. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- The details of the death of Jude (Thaddaeus) are unknown. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And the early church (the first 300 years after Christ's death) numbered in the hundreds of thousands, most of which were burned at the stake by the Romans, along with their familes. This means that their wives and children were also burned at the stake along with them. They didn't defend them violently. This is what they were taught, by Jesus' own original diciples. And if anyone knew how to follow Jesus' commands, surely His own diciples did![/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here are some of their qoutes: [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]""We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And who taught the early church to follow Jesus in this nonviolent manner? It was Jesus' very own twelve diciples! And if anyone knew how to follow the commands of Christ, surely the twelve diciples did. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You may be asking yourself, why did they not defend themselves? Because they did not fear death. The were fearless. For death is gain, my friend. It means that you will enter paradise with Jesus. Why fear death? Why fight death? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Phillipians 1:21 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Are you going to imitate Jesus or not? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Imitate me as I imitate Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:11 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus' diciples did it, the early church did it. And when they did it, Christianity spread like wildfire throughout the world. It spread more then than at any point in history. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If other people want to send us home to be with the Father, then we should not fear them, for to be with the Father is our heart's desire. Fear God, not man. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Want to see another example of what nonviolence looks like? Here's a good one. It is about how nonviolence saved the Jews from Hitler and his Nazis. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Have you not heard of the Orthodox pastor who saved lives of hundreds of Jews during the Holocaust? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They had the Jews down at the train station, and they had them in a barbed-wire enclosure. It was a rainy, misty night. Out of the darkness, at 11:00, the leader of the Orthodox church of Bulgaria, this seven foot four figure, with a long flowing white beard hanging over his black robe, emerges out of the fog. Can you imagine the drama of this? And then from behind him come about 300 of the members of his congregation. They say his gait, his walk was so fast, that the other men had to run just to keep up with him. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He came to the entrance of the barbed-wire enclosure, and the S.S. guard pointed their machine guns at him and said, "you can't go in there, father." He laughed at them. That's guts. Brushed the machine guns aside, and marched in among the Jews. They gathered around him, seeing what the Christian leader of Bulgaria had to say in their moment of distress, in their moment of need. They were crying, some of them were hysterical, they knew they were heading for Auschwitz, unless something miraculous happened. And something miraculous did. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Christian leader raised his arms, quoted one verse of scripture, and changed the destiny of the nation. Here's the verse. Quoting from the book of Ruth, he said to the Jews, who were hysterical, knowing they were about to be carted off to Auschwitz to die. "Whither so ever thou goest, I will go. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God." Ruth 1:16 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Jews cheered. The Christians were outside the barbed-wire enclosure. They cheered. The noise was so great, that people came out of their houses, and started coming down in increasing numbers to the train station. The hundreds grew to thousands. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The S.S. troopers knew there was no way they were going to get away with rounding up these Jews and carrying them off to Auschwitz. The train left without the Jews, and never returned again. And not a single Jew ever died in the concentration camp, if he was a Bulgarian. Because the Church of Jesus Christ boldly stood up and said, "We're not going to kill the enemy, we are going to identify with the suffering, and we will suffer with them." This is Jesus' way. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All the while this pastor obeyed Jesus' commands to "love your enemy," "do good to those that hate you," and to be "as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Will you imitate Jesus and follow His example? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here is what Martin Luther King Jr. had to say about nonviolence and the misguided efforts of some American Christians to make war upon others: [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Martin Luther King [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Several things can be said about nonviolence as a method in bringing about better racial conditions. First, this is not a method of cowardice or stagnant passivity; it does resist. The non-violent resister is just as opposed to the evil he is protesting as the person who used violence. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A second basic fact about this method is that it does not seek to defeat or humiliate the opponent but to win his friendship and understanding. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A third fact that characterizes the methods of nonviolence is that the attack is directed toward the forces of evil, rather than the persons caught in the forces. Those of us who struggle against racial injustice must come to see that the basic tension is not between races. The tension is at bottom between justice and injustice, between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A fourth point that must be brought out concerning the method of nonviolence is that this method not only avoids external physical violence, but also internal violence of the spirit. At the center of nonviolence stands the principle of love. We have learned through the grim realities of life and history that hate and violence solve nothing. Violence begets violence; hate begets hate; and toughness begets toughness. It is all a descending spiral, and the end is destruction — for everybody. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A fifth basic fact about the method of non-violent resistance is that it is based on the conviction that the universe is on the side of justice. It is this deep faith in the future that causes the non-violent resister to accept suffering without retaliation. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]While many blacks considered non-violence cowardly, Kings method of social protest was anything but. Non-violent resistance took enormous emotional discipline and quite a bit of training. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]-Imagine marching arm in arm with others, singing We Shall Overcome as the police release vicious dogs trained to maim and kill. Imagine being hosed with streams of water forceful enough to break your ribs. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]-Imagine sitting at a lunch counter and having a gang spit on you, hit you, and smear food all over you. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Imagine trying to register to vote and having your home bombed, or your wife and children beaten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]-Imagine being arrested, beaten to within an inch of your life, and being thrown into a prison cell built for four with 20 other people. No toilet, just a hole in the ground, rats, and no guarantee of emerging alive. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]-Imagine. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]No, non-violent resistance took supreme courage and it wasnt always successful. But it did prick the nations conscience and provide graphic images of Americas hypocrisy. The land of the free was (and still is) home to some of the most virulent racists outside of Nazi Germany and South Africa. The fact that King was able to convince thousands of Negroes — whose survival depended on allowing their personhood to be stripped from them every day of their lives — to stand up and return love for hatred, is nothing short of miraculous. Especially when the natural human inclination is to fight fire with fire. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The problem, i think, is that you love your life, and you love it so much that you will kill to keep it. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Do you love your life so much that you would kill for it? Do you love the world so much that you would kill just to remain in it? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus calls us to hate even our own lives, being ready to give them up for Him at any moment. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" Luke 14:26 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are warned to not love the world, to not love this life of temporary pleasures and trappings of the flesh. Our desire should not be to remain in this fallen world, but to be with God the Father in paradise. Our desire should be to leave this life of tribulations and persecution and enter into His rest. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Don't love the world and what it offers. Those who love the world don't have the Father's love in them." 1 John 2:15 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You ought to be hated by the world if you follow Christ. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:19 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." 1 John 3:13 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." James 4:4 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You should desire to leave this world and be with Christ. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith" Phillipians 1:21-24 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God bless you. I hope you understand now what you must do to keep the commands of Jesus.[/FONT]
 
G

Groundhog

Guest
#67
Beefy- thanks for the huge posting, and for all the quotes. There's definitely a lot to chew on there.
 
B

beefy

Guest
#68
Your welcome. Let me know what you think of it, after you get through reading all of it.

God bless.
 
Jan 31, 2009
2,225
11
0
#69
there will be wars and rumors of war , the antichrist comes and offers peace, and people buy into it. as long as man serves mammal over God we will always have to defend the Name Of God, the Lord Jehova.


Lu 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:Lu 12:52For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.Lu 12:53The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.Lu 12:54And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.Lu 12:55And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.Lu 12:56Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?Lu 12:57Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?Lu 12:58When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.Lu 12:59I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

there should be peace among the Christians, working together for the Kingdom of God, if there is a kingdom, then there is a need that we defend it, even with the cost of our own life. we can't lay down with the enemy, and let them lead souls into and through the gates of Hell, how does a strong man over take a house unless he divides it first. Jesus had to divide the House of evil, as He died for those that would believe in Him. given many of the gentilesyes we are to pray for our enemies and their souls. the purpose of the battle we face should be about land , oil, and/or money. but rather souls for the Kingdom sake
 
B

beefy

Guest
#70
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- man's enemies will be the members of his own household." Matthew 10:34-36

That's right. Jesus did bring a sword. He brought the Word of God, the "sword of the spirit", and that caused much division between households. It even caused nonchristian sons and daughters to put their Christian mothers and fathers to death!

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Ephesians 6:17

And the families betrayed one another, turning agianst each other, just as Jesus said they would do:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another" Matthew 22:10

"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" Luke 12:49
I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
That's right. Jesus came to bring the "fire of the Holy Spirit" on the earth, and it was kindled among His disciples...

"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:3-4

There were some who wished Jesus would bring physical fire down on the earth, but Jesus rebuked them. For he "came not to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:51-56

Obviously the fire He came to bring was not physical fire. He rebuked His disciples for suggesting such a thing.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple. " Luke 14:26

Indeed. And why did he say this? To hate one's own parents?

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37

Anyone who loves his father or mother so much that he would disobey Jesus' command to "love your enemy" is not worthy of Jesus. So, if they decide to kill their enemy out of love for their father or mother, they are disobeying Jesus' command.

By choosing to not love their enemies, thereby disobeying Jesus, they have demonstrated that they do not love Jesus more than their father or mother.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

Only those who really love Jesus will follow His commands like "love your enemy." And they certainly love Jesus more than their father or mother.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate...even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

And why did He say this? To hate one's own life?

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33

Truly, if anyone seeks to save his life (by killing a terrorist who threatens his life), they will lose it. But those that will lose their lives, as did Jesus' disciples, will preserve their eternal life.

Why do someChristians seek to save their lives? Don't they know they will lose it?

Why do some Christians take up the sword? Don't they know they will perish with it?

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Revelation 13:10

God bless you, regardless of what you choose to do. Forgiveness, or vengeance. It is up to you. But what you do unto others will be done unto you. The same measure you mete will be measured unto you again. You reap what you sow.

" For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:38

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galations 6:7

If you sow in violence and death, in death an violence will you also reap. What goes around comes around. I encourage you to sow in love and forgiveness instead, as Jesus showed us how to do.

Jesus didn't defend himself. The diciples didn't defend themselves. The early church did not defend themselves. I am going to ask you something. Do you think that what they did (loving their enemies) was wrong? Do you think Jesus, His diciples, and the early church were wrong in the way they followed Jesus' commands? If so, why? And why would you ever want to disobey Jesus' commands, such as "love your enemies" and "do good to those who hurt you"?

The men who killed others had a massive hayday with all of the diciples and early Christians that they slaughtered across the region. If we follow Christ's commands, the same thing will likely happen to us.

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." Romans 8:36

You are so focused on your physical security that you don't realize that your eternal security is of much greater importance.

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Matthew 24:9

This is exactly what Jesus said would happen to those that follow His commands. Many will get butchered like cattle, just like what is happening to the Christians in China. You just aren't willing to pay the price for Jesus, are you? Do you not love Him enough? He gave His life for you, but you will not return the favor? Don't you know that you are His servant, as you are to be just as the master is, a living sacrifice?

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord." Matthew 10:25

And this is what spread Christianity the most. Martyrdom. It is what made Martin Luthe King Jr. so memorable in history, and it is what made Ghandi's ideas so widespread. Because the leaders were martyred, just like Christ and His diciples were.

I didn't say stand by and watch people get murdered and raped. Do something about it. Just don't return evil for evil (killing for killing). Overcome evil with good.

As far as Jesus driving out the men in the temple with a whip, that is a poor comparison to war and the killing of other people. Jesus was certainly angry, and rightly so. He got physical and he did forcefully chase those men out of His Father's temple.

As far as Jesus actually injuring or hurting others with the whip, there is no mention.

Let me think of a scenario in which I would get physical like Jesus did, but certainly not hurt or kill anyone:

If I came across someone who was trying to rape a young girl, aiming to rape or molest her, I am certain that I would get down on the ground and do my best to pull him off of her, however forcefully. I may get beat up by the man for doing so, but at least the girl would then have the time she needed to escape. And I'm certain she would high-tail it out of there as soon as the man turned his attention to me.

I think that is a good scenario to use force, but certainly not kill anyone. I think Jesus would do the same thing in that particular scenario. What do you think? Surely Jesus would not stand by and watch the young girl get raped?

I'll tell you what isn't sound. Just because one is wearing a uniform does not exempt one from having to obey Christ's commands. Jesus didn't say, "Love your enemies, except if you are a soldier or are in goverment." He didn't say, "You don't have to love your enemies and do good to those who hate you anymore, you can just kill your enemies now." The diciples of Christ didn't even involve themselves in politics and governent, they were too busy feeding the poor and healing the sick and following Christ's commands.

Jesus said that if you wish to be His diciples, a Christian, then you must love your enemy, and do good to those who hate you, and bless those who curse you.

The terrorists are your enemy. Jesus says Love your enemy. Love the terrorists.

The terrorists hate you. Jesus says Do good to those who hate you. Do good to the terrorists.

The terrorists curse you. Jesus says bless those who curse you. Bless the terrorists. Tell them "God bless you."

In this way you will be a child of the most High God, for he is kind to the unthankful and the evil. You should be kind unto the evil as well.

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:35

Some have said, "Sorry I will kill those who would try try to kill my family."

Right, so you will repay their evil (trying to kill you) with more evil (you killing them first)?

Go ahead and tell your son, "killing people is wrong, this man should not have tried to kill us," as you pull the trigger. And then kill this man to show your son just how "wrong" killing people really is. There is nothing more hypocritical than killing those who kill, for now in this way you join the ranks of all of those who have ever killed.

You are not supposed to repay evil (killing) with more evil (more killing). You are supposed to overcome evil with good. Don't repay evil for evil.

"Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." 1 Peter 3:9

"Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men." Romans 12:17

"Do not say, "I will repay evil"; Wait for the LORD, and He will save you." Proverbs 20:22

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19

Do good to those who hate you, don't hate those who hate you.

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you," Luke 6:27

Love your enemies, don't kill your enemies. This is what Christ commanded us to do. Follow His example.

Let me ask you this. Are your loved ones Christians? Are they going to heaven when they die? If they are, then they should not fear death and persecution. The early Christians and diciples of Christ were killed for their faith, burned at the stake alongside their families. But did they retaliate in violence? No, because they had nor fear of death. They knew where they were going when they died, They did not care if others sent them to heaven, for to be with the Father was their heart's desire. Is this your desire as well? Do you have the courage to go through what Jesus and His followers went through? Death and persecution? I think you do. You should be a fearless Christian.

I will die for my family, sacrificing my life so that they can escape. But I will not kill for my family. I will not send others to Hell just to live in this crazy world a little longer.

Christians that obey Jesus' commands are to have no fear, and so I have no fear of death. Jesus says not to fear death and persecution. Do you?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

God's perfect love for me drives out all my fear of death and persecution. It is for this reason that I will not stop practicing my faith, even if it is illegal practice Christainity, even if I will be killed for it.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;" 1 Peter 3:14

"Don't be afraid of what you are going to suffer. The devil is going to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested. Your suffering will go on for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

See? John says we will recieve a crown of life if we are faithful to Jesus, even unto death.

Christians should not be surprised if the world hates them and kills them for their faith. It is what Jesus said would happen to us, if we follow Him.

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:9-12

Jesus says "endure unto the end," even death, and you shall be saved. Stand tall in the face of persecution and bear all suffering gladly for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Don't send other people to Hell, for that is what one does when one kills the enemy. Give the enemy a chance to be saved. You never know what God may use them for. This is what happened to Paul, a diciple of Christ. Under his former name, Saul, he used to kill and persecute Christians far and wide, and then God spoke to him and Saul repented of His sins. God changed his name to Paul. Paul then wrote most of the New Testament, and contributed greatly to the work of Christ and Christianity.

God bless you all.
 
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B

beefy

Guest
#71
One last thing:

there should be peace among the Christians, working together for the Kingdom of God, if there is a kingdom, then there is a need that we defend it, even with the cost of our own life.
There is a kingdom of God, but it is not here to defend. The kingdom of God is not an earthly kingdom that needs defending. Jesus already stressed this fact:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, " John 18:36

There is not commandment from God to fight for these earthly kingdoms. Ancient Israel has long since passed, and now the kingdoms of the world have been given to Satan, and He gives these kingdoms to whomever will worship him. Allow me to prove this.

Satan gives the power to rule the world to any man that will worhship him. Satan offered this power to Jesus, but He refused to worship him.

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine." Luke 4:5-7

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The world leaders engage in Satanic rituals with human sacrifices in California every year, in what is called the Bohemian Grove. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here is an ABC News special report about the grove. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]bohemian grove - George Bush, Richard Nixon and Henry Kissingers holiday resort [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi1j00VzzuM [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And here is what actually goes on inside of the grove: [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/533214/bohemian_grove_footage/ [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]These are the men who rule our world, and they spend two-weeks practicing Satanic rituals, among other things, in California every year. They do this because it gives them power. Once again, I stress to you that Satan gives the power to rule the world to any man that will worhship him. Satan offered this power to Jesus, but He refused to worship him. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine." Luke 4:5-7 [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As you may or may not know, the Freemasons have thousands of lodges all over the United States. My uncle is a Freemason. The first 32 degrees (ranks) of Freemasons know nothing of the Satanic Ritual that the most powerful Freemasons (the 33rd degree Masons) engage in on a regular basis. It is also interesting to note that most American Presidents have been Freemasons, and high ranking ones at that, many of them being 33rd degree Masons. Here is a special report by ABC News on Freemasonry. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Masonic Leader Installed and Interviews with Freemasons on ABC News [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcDymgx9EEw&feature=related [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And here is what the 33rd degree Freemasons really engage in, unknown to the public, and unknown even to the lower ranking Masons. In this video you will see them sacrificing a goat on a pentagram altar, and then the Grand Master Mason drinks its blood. Skip to 6 minutes into the video to get to the part with the goat. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Masonic Rituals recorded and exposed by a Brother in Turkey [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyuhhH2g5lY [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As you can see, the most powerful people in the world worship Satan, and he gives them his power through the rituals they engage in regularly. These men who follow Satan control the waging of wars, the defining of public policies, and the money system. They are also referred to as the Order of Illuminati, a brotherhood of Satanists. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you work for the military, you are working for the people that lead them. And the world leaders that command the military are Satanists. Therfore, working for the military is indirectly working for the Illuminati. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The only way you can combat malevolent spiritual forces and the power of Satan is through the Power of God, the antithesis of Satan. It is only through God and His infinitely superior power that you can make the world a better place. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God bless you all.[/FONT]
 
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Aug 22, 2009
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#72
I did not read all posts so I apologize if this is not related, but I am for peace. I am not one of those Christians that blindly follows a political party and all its views just because I would obviously agree with some of their views. Why did our Lord say he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Why did he not allow himself to be political King of Israel through uprising and then pay for our sins through political assassination. War is the Wisdom of the World, Peace is the Wisdom of God. And I don't believe saying, 'well war is commanded by God in the Bible..." is a refutation. It is in the Old Testament ONLY, not the new testament. I have a VERY hard time believing that any person who lives the gospel perfectly (which is what we're supposed to do) would also fight. The Lord said the greatest love is to lay down one's life for another, and he also said to love our enemies. I hope we can stop justifying our actions with the Old Testament without also justifying it in the New Testament
Peace be with you ALL
 
B

beefy

Guest
#73
. And I don't believe saying, 'well war is commanded by God in the Bible..." is a refutation. It is in the Old Testament ONLY, not the new testament.
Agreed. Very good MercyInTruth. If I might piggyback on your post, I would like to remind everyone that the Bible says that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. "Hebrews 8:7-13

First off, God physically commanded people to fight wars in the Old Testament. He no longer commands people to fight wars. The words "Old Testament" literally means "Old Covenant." Look it up in the dictionary for proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."

Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.
What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant.

Under this Old Covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocities to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old

"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his people when he said,

“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. "Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version,it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away. "

The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete,including the "eye for an eye” doctrine..

You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, that ye resist not evil.” Matthew 5:38-39

Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians.The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant. Jesus was not even born yet, therefore the Jews could not possibly be Christians.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.

God bless.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#75
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Let's pretend that you said, " We have the right to defend ourselves violently." [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You do know that that is exactly what the twelve diciples of Jesus and the early church did, right? Refused to defend themselves? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Here is how the diciples of Christ died. All of them refused to defend themselves, and Peter even cried out "Father forgive them!" as he died. You are to follow their example, as they followed the example of Christ. [/FONT]
[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- [/FONT]
you can not make a statement like this with any proof or evidence to back it up, there is no way that we know that none, not one, of these tried to defend themselves. the very principle of Christianity is to forsake one's life that others might have life and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY, at the garden Jesus told peter to put down the sword , but later told him to pick it up again, to go sell what they had and give it to the poor, no He Said to sell what they had and buy swords. If there is attack on your Church and you have a chance to protect some lives, a chance to stop the attack, and you do nothing would be a greater sin than to just let people be killed, we forget the fact that Jesus the one that said turn the other cheek , also told us of the battle of Armageddon

Re 16:14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the BATTLE of that great day of God Almighty.
again we can not pick and choose what scripturea we want to teach and live by, it must be every Word that proceedeth from God.

Ec 3:1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:Ec 3:2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;Ec 3:3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;Ec 3:4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;Ec 3:5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;Ec 3:6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;Ec 3:7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;Ec 3:8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.Ec 3:9What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?Ec 3:10I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.Ec 3:11He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
to preach times of peace when Jesus said there would be wars and rumor of wars, is to say that we know better than Jesus. the message here should be unity within the Church that we may better be prepared for the times Jesus warned us about, if we all lay down our weapons and let all the other religions kill us as they please, will there be any laborers left for the harvest time Jesus also taught us about. Look at the famous words of david as he faced the giant was His message just give up and don't do anything, we will show more people our love by letting the enemy win here today no but rather David said it is time to fight and his passion was 1sa 17:29 Is there not a cause?
 
B

beefy

Guest
#76
you can not make a statement like this with any proof or evidence to back it up, there is no way that we know that none, not one, of these tried to defend themselves.
Actually, I can make a statement like this, because I have studied the history of the diciples and the early church. If you find evidence to the contrary, you are welcome to present it.

I know what will happen when Jesus comes back. He will fight a great battle. Angels fighting demons has nothing to do with humans fighting humans.

to go sell what they had and give it to the poor, no He Said to sell what they had and buy swords.
You have misunderstood the context of Jesus' diciples buying swords.

From "A Practical Christian Pacifism:"

What About Jesus' Command to Buy a Sword?

Some would argue that Luke 22:36-38 justifies joining an organization of the world whose purpose it is to "defend" a nation by killing those which it views as politically opposing it. The verse says the following, "Then He [jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end.' So they said, 'Lord, look, here are two swords. ' And He said to them; 'It is enough. '"

Let us agree upon what these verses do plainly teach. First, clearly Jesus does say that his disciples could have swords, and in fact He does command them to buy a sword. However Jesus gives us the reason he gave that command. He says, "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'" So, what Jesus is saying is that he must be numbered with the transgressors, so he says in effect, 'go ahead and buy swords so that you will be considered rebels-insurrectionists-transgressors when the religious leaders come toarrest me'.

In this way, Jesus will fulfill the prophesy about Messiah being numbered with the transgressors. It is that simple and this fits the context of that passage the best. The most important principle in properly interpreting the scripture is context and cross reference with other scripture. The context of this passage is NOT some political statement, nor some statement about defending a nation. Rather, it is a statement about Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophesy about being numbered with transgressors.

When other's want to kill us for loving the Lord Jesus, then we allow them to send us Home, for to be with our Father is our heart's desire.

Saying that the twelve disciples were commanded to defend themselves with only two swords that they found is wrong. They could not possibly do much defending with only two swords for twelve men.

You can ignore the second part of the verse you cite if you want. It doesn't change that Jesus refers to the prophecy immidiately follwing this command.

"Then He [jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'" Luke 22:36-38

Don't ignore the reason Jesus gave the command in the first place. For what other reason could Jesus have referenced prophecy right after saying this? Is the second verse to be disregarded?

Have you forgotten what Jesus said to His disciples when they actually tried to use those said swords?

Listen to Jesus when he said, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Mattthew 26:52

And as you have voiced, you clearly do not want your sons and daughters in the militray to perish by the sword, do you?

And, in case you have forgotten, Jesus the man never killed anyone, and neither did His twleve disciples. You shouldn't either, as a Christian, a disciple of Christ.

Ec 3:8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Once again, you have cited a verse written by men living under the Old Covenant, which has been made obsolete.

First off, God physically commanded people to fight wars in the Old Testament. He no longer commands people to fight wars. The words "Old Testament" literally means "Old Covenant." Look it up in the dictionary for proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."

Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.
What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant.

Under this Old Covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocities to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old

"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his people when he said,

“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. "Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version,it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away. "

The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete,including the "eye for an eye” doctrine..

You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, that ye resist not evil.” Matthew 5:38-39

Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians.The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant. Jesus was not even born yet, therefore the Jews could not possibly be Christians.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.

If there is attack on your Church and you have a chance to protect some lives, a chance to stop the attack, and you do nothing would be a greater sin than to just let people be killed
Nonviolence does not mean non-action. Non-violence does not mean "letting people be killed." Believe it or not, you can stop the gunman by tackling him, karate chopping the hand with the gun, or by shooting him in a non-lethal area of the body. All of these things can be done to the man without killing the man.

Nonviolence saves lives. It can even save the lives of Jews from Hitler.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Have you not heard of the Orthodox pastor who saved lives of hundreds of Jews during the Holocaust? [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They had the Jews down at the train station, and they had them in a barbed-wire enclosure. It was a rainy, misty night. Out of the darkness, at 11:00, the leader of the Orthodox church of Bulgaria, this seven foot four figure, with a long flowing white beard hanging over his black robe, emerges out of the fog. Can you imagine the drama of this? And then from behind him come about 300 of the members of his congregation. They say his gait, his walk was so fast, that the other men had to run just to keep up with him. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He came to the entrance of the barbed-wire enclosure, and the S.S. guard pointed their machine guns at him and said, "you can't go in there, father." He laughed at them. That's guts. Brushed the machine guns aside, and marched in among the Jews. They gathered around him, seeing what the Christian leader of Bulgaria had to say in their moment of distress, in their moment of need. They were crying, some of them were hysterical, they knew they were heading for Auschwitz, unless something miraculous happened. And something miraculous did. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Christian leader raised his arms, quoted one verse of scripture, and changed the destiny of the nation. Here's the verse. Quoting from the book of Ruth, he said to the Jews, who were hysterical, knowing they were about to be carted off to Auschwitz to die. "Whither so ever thou goest, I will go. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God." Ruth 1:16 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Jews cheered. The Christians were outside the barbed-wire enclosure. They cheered. The noise was so great, that people came out of their houses, and started coming down in increasing numbers to the train station. The hundreds grew to thousands. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The S.S. troopers knew there was no way they were going to get away with rounding up these Jews and carrying them off to Auschwitz. The train left without the Jews, and never returned again. And not a single Jew ever died in the concentration camp, if he was a Bulgarian. Because the Church of Jesus Christ boldly stood up and said, "We're not going to kill the enemy, we are going to identify with the suffering, and we will suffer with them." This is Jesus' way. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All the while this pastor obeyed Jesus' commands to "love your enemy," "do good to those that hate you," and to be "as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16 [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Will you imitate Jesus and follow His example? [/FONT]





 
Jan 31, 2009
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#77
One last thing:



There is a kingdom of God, but it is not here to defend. The kingdom of God is not an earthly kingdom that needs defending. Jesus already stressed this fact:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, " John 18:36
I am sorry sir but just because the Word of Godis referred to as a sword in one place of the Bible, does not make a sword the Word of God everywhere in the Bible, so the scriptures i referred is not the wOrd of God but a physical sword .

Lu 22:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.Lu 22:37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.Lu 22:38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


Jesus is not telling His disciples to go buy Bibles, ignore scriptures that don't agree with your doctrines, or twist them to say what you want them to say not only can get you in a bind from time to time but those that follow you, Jesus is confirming scripture when He told Peter to lay down the sword at the garden, and again when he told Him to pick it up again, which now makes it part of the New testament also
Ec 3:8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

God uses people to establish His Kingdom , thy will be done in Earth as it is in heaven , Behold The Kingdom of God.


Mr 1:15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the KINGDOM OF GOD is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#78
Actually, I can make a statement like this, because I have studied the history of the diciples and the early church. If you find evidence to the contrary, you are welcome to present it.

I know what will happen when Jesus comes back. He will fight a great battle. Angels fighting demons has nothing to do with humans fighting humans.

beefy, so are you saying that only angels will be here on earth for the battle of armageddon! WOW

Re 19:10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Re 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.Re 19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.Re 19:13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.Re 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.Re 19:15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Re 19:16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Re 19:17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;Re 19:18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.Re 19:19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.Re 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.Re 19:21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh

 
B

beefy

Guest
#79
I know Jesus and His army (legions of angels) will fight a great battle. I never said that only the angels will be here on earth. You did.

The reason why the diciples of Christ weren't policemen and soldiers is because the were to be in the world, not of the world. Let the world mettle with its own affairs. Our job is to love and to serve others. We are part of God's kindom, not any worldly kingdom. Our allegiance is with Christ, not with America. It is not our job to exact God's justice on other people. God has put the authorities in place for a reason, sure. But nowhere in the verses you mention does it say that the powers that be are followers of Christ. And I assure you, they are not followers of Christ, but followers of Satan. Most of the people in the army and police force do not know that orders come from those that worship Satan. But, I anyone watched the videos I presented earlier, they would see that this is in fact true. The proof is staring you in the face.

Why do Christians not make good soldiers? Because even the soldiers were told "Do violence to no man."

John the Baptist actually does interact with soldiers who come to him asking specifically what they should do. John's response is related in Luke 3:14: And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

The word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Notice that the entire system of war, and those participating, is about constantly putting others in fear. Terrifying people is something that war is perpetually in the business of doing. If nothing else is agitating to a people, war is most certainly agitating. If anything is gained by war, surely money, and that by intimidation and conquest. If anyone can kill a man in combat, then surely the combatants get shaken thorughly from thime to time. If anything makes one tremble, it is war, and the drums and soldiers of war, that do so.

Everything about war and its participants breaks this command, "Do violence to no man."

You are aware that the early church, who was taught by the twelve diciples, completely disagreed with you on this, right? Christians were forbidden to join military service or police occupations.

The early Christian community understood Jesus’ commands to prohibit the bearing of arms. Christians refused to join the military, even though the Roman army of the period was as much a police force as a conquering army. Those who converted to Christianity while in military service were instructed to refrain from killing, to pray for forgiveness for past acts of violence, and to seek release from their military obligations. A striking example of the pervasiveness of pacifism in the early church is the fact that Tertullian and Origen—church fathers who stood at opposite poles regarding the relation of faith to philosophical reasoning—each wrote a tract supporting Christians’ refusal to join the military.

It wasn't until St. Augustine came around with his "Just War Theory" that many Christians changed their stance. This also happened to be the time when Christians got their first taste of political power, around the time when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.

Here is are some historical quotes from the early church:

"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.

"We used to be filled with war, mutual slaughter, and every kind of wickedness. However, now all of us have, throughout the whole earth, changed our warlike weapons. We have changed our swords into plowshares, and our spears into farming implements." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.254.

"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.

"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.

"The one instrument of peace is what we employ: the Word alone. We no longer use the ancient psaltery, trumpet, tembrel, and flute. For those who are expert in war and are scorners of the fear of God were accustomed to make use of them." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.246.

"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian

"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen

"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen

"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian

"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius

"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.
 
Aug 24, 2009
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#80
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God
 
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