Circular conundrums

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RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
786
113
#1
I think we would all agree that whatever we believe and do, we should have scripture to back it up.

But we would also agree that scripture can be made to back some seriously twisted stuff.

Too, scripture itself admits it's not telling the full story. John 21:25 - Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. Earlier in John 14:12, even Jesus admits that we will do things He has not done... Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So, the circular conundrum is that while we are constrained to work our lives within the confines of scripture, scripture tells us we will do more than is reported in it.



we are constrained to work our lives within the confines of scripture

scripture tells us we will do more than is reported in it.


How do you wrap your human brain around that one?
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
124
43
#2
Hey! Ricky.... PTL!
Sadly, error feels exactly the same as the truth does, even when that truth is the product of scripture that has been illuminated by the Spirit. Perhaps that's why scripture tells us that we see through a glass darkly. The more accurate a person's understanding of the truth, the closer that one should be able to draw near to the Lord; making accuracy a thing to be greatly desired. Even so, all the accuracy in the world pales to insignificance when compared to being a doer of the word, which, I suspect, is why obedience is better than sacrifice, even when that sacrifice is the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The prior sentence is in reference to growth after salvation. Let's not even get into how our preconceptions distort our understanding of the truth and how it all fits together into a cohesive non-contradictory, hopefully, world picture.
Maranatha!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,129
7,946
113
#3
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
What if this was only for the apostles (including Paul)? Of course it says "whoever believes in me", but again it could be applicable to just the apostolic period.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,526
113
#4
I think we would all agree that whatever we believe and do, we should have scripture to back it up.

But we would also agree that scripture can be made to back some seriously twisted stuff.

Too, scripture itself admits it's not telling the full story. John 21:25 - Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. Earlier in John 14:12, even Jesus admits that we will do things He has not done... Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


That portion of scripture is not something that backs up scripture .But that which forbids the oral tradition of men as a law of the fathers as lies. He was rebuking Peter again for starting rumors. If every time the Holy Spirit worked to dispel rumors the whole world would have no room to store the books .

And the greater things cannot be greater than the power of the gospel to raise natural men from the dead. When the Son of Man was here perhaps 500 or so became saved during His ministry . He instructs us if he did not leave then the Holy Spirit could not come and do His work

When Peter preached at Pentecost the work of the Holy Spirit brought in the fold 3000 soul in the twinkling of the eye . 3000 is greater than 500 or so
 

GodisONE

Active member
Jul 11, 2018
212
44
28
#5
Yeshua basically used the Jews as His platform for His ministry. it was not until He made Disciples He foretold them they would be evangelists that go to places Yeshua never did. and then if you calculate that against what we have today [television, radio, satellite, internet, mobile devices, etc] we can reach the amount of people Yeshua did in His entire ministry in ONE SINGLE DAY!!

this includes preaching, teaching, Bible discussions like this forum, healing, praying, testifying all can be done in a matter of minutes that took Yeshua days.

now, we know He is God and could be even faster than what we have it now. but He chose which time to arrive on earth and went with the flow!!
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,868
650
113
#6
Jesus did miracles, and preached the Gospel, and there is more that He did than what was recorded, but it is still the same as what is already recorded, but more of it.

And the saints will impact more area with the truth, and collectively impact the world more, where Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but it is the same as what is already recorded, but more of it.

We get the full story in the Bible, but we do not need to know everything Jesus did for it all the same as what was already recorded, but more of it, the same as the saints doing greater works that we do not need to know everything they did, but what they do is already recorded, but more of it.

If Jesus did 10,000 miracles, but only 20 were recorded, why do we have to know all 10,000 miracles to get the idea what Jesus did on earth, for we would read the same thing only happening to different people.

Nothing is new, only more of it that was not recorded, but what was not recorded is not some hidden wisdom that we are missing out on, and we are not getting the full story, but the same as what is already recorded.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,470
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#7
Hey! Ricky.... PTL!
Sadly, error feels exactly the same as the truth does, even when that truth is the product of scripture that has been illuminated by the Spirit. Perhaps that's why scripture tells us that we see through a glass darkly. The more accurate a person's understanding of the truth, the closer that one should be able to draw near to the Lord; making accuracy a thing to be greatly desired. Even so, all the accuracy in the world pales to insignificance when compared to being a doer of the word, which, I suspect, is why obedience is better than sacrifice, even when that sacrifice is the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The prior sentence is in reference to growth after salvation. Let's not even get into how our preconceptions distort our understanding of the truth and how it all fits together into a cohesive non-contradictory, hopefully, world picture.
Maranatha!
THE LORD COMETH!
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
786
113
#8
Interesting... it could be that the 'greater things' refers to a larger volume of the same thing.

But we have an example of a new thing with Acts 2. We have no record of Jesus ever speaking in tongues, yet in Acts we see tongues introduced among His followers. We never saw Jesus condemn any person to die (He did curse a fig tree, and it withered). Yet in Acts 5 we see Peter speak death to Ananias and Sapphira. So there are indeed things occurring post-ascension that Jesus never did.

It does fall in line with the 'similar' response, what happened with Ananias and Peter is in some ways similar to the interaction between Jesus and the tree.

So the question is, where is the line? For example, if Jesus calmed a stormy sea, would it be along the same line for one of us to in His Name to stir up a calm one, a similar but scripturally unreported act?













 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
367
83
#9
I think we would all agree that whatever we believe and do, we should have scripture to back it up.

But we would also agree that scripture can be made to back some seriously twisted stuff.

Too, scripture itself admits it's not telling the full story. John 21:25 - Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. Earlier in John 14:12, even Jesus admits that we will do things He has not done... Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So, the circular conundrum is that while we are constrained to work our lives within the confines of scripture, scripture tells us we will do more than is reported in it.


we are constrained to work our lives within the confines of scripture

scripture tells us we will do more than is reported in it.


How do you wrap your human brain around that one?
Miracles had a purpose- to I.D. that the old testament prophets were truly from God, that Jesus truly was the Christ, and that the 12 apostles were hand-picked by Christ Himself. That purpose has been fulfilled. We no longer need to hear God's Word through a prophet because we now have the complete Word of God (bible), therefore we no longer need miracles to prove who they are...

"We know in part, and prophesy in part, but when completion comes what was only partial will disappear. But faith, hope, and love will remain." If something remains that indicates that something else was taken away. So what was taken away in order for the others to remain? Miracles.

There are some things that Jesus said that were only for those at the time, and not for those in later times.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,703
10,643
113
#10
How do you wrap your human brain around that one?
i start by asking what God means by 'greater' -- not assuming He measures greatness the way humans do.

:)

whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant
(Mark 10:43)
is this a clue?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,703
10,643
113
#11
Interesting... it could be that the 'greater things' refers to a larger volume of the same thing.
not sure over here that God measures 'greater things' by counting how many things or counting how many people witness a thing.
figure He would have said '
more things' or 'in greater number' if that's what He means to say.


we can reach the amount of people Yeshua did in His entire ministry in ONE SINGLE DAY!!

God speaks and all creation from beginning to end across all time hears -- all whom He gives ears that hear.

a voice that raises all the dead to life, that creates all that exists, has existed and ever will exist.
despite the headlines, the Beatles are not '
bigger than Jesus' -- there's a fundamental flaw in that famous claim which lies in an assumption having been made about instantaneous/contemporaneous crowd size.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#12
Psst we have a personal walk with Jesus, we are guided by the holy
spirit. Personal testimony did not end with the book of revelation. 🙂
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
124
43
#13
Miracles had a purpose- to I.D. that the old testament prophets were truly from God, that Jesus truly was the Christ, and that the 12 apostles were hand-picked by Christ Himself. That purpose has been fulfilled. We no longer need to hear God's Word through a prophet because we now have the complete Word of God (bible), therefore we no longer need miracles to prove who they are...

"We know in part, and prophesy in part, but when completion comes what was only partial will disappear. But faith, hope, and love will remain." If something remains that indicates that something else was taken away. So what was taken away in order for the others to remain? Miracles.

There are some things that Jesus said that were only for those at the time, and not for those in later times.
Hey! OneFaith... PTL!
imo: The "that which is perfect," can't be the NT scriptures because the partial hasn't been done away as yet, sadly. I still see the truth as though it was through a glass darkly. I still only know in part and not as fully as I myself am known of the Lord, sadly. I still do not see that which is perfect, face to face, sadly. Its true that the NT scriptures weren't added until after the church was already spread across the known world, but like the OT believer we study the scriptures; they to insure that they do according to all that is written. We of the NT, study to have the Holy Spirit: 1) make the word itself to come alive and be Jesus speaking to us, Spirit to spirit and we learn of him. 2) Writes the Lord's laws and commandments upon the tables of both our hearts and our minds which renews our consciences, bringing us who are trained thereby toward a personal righteousness. 3) Leads us into those exceedingly great and precious promises whereby we might be made partakers of the Lord's divine nature.

But when Jesus comes there will be no more seeing through a glass darkly, but rather we'll see him as he is for we shall be like him. We will no longer be absent from the Lord like we are now, but rather we'll know him as someone who is one with the Lord from then on and forever. No more faith required for what we already posses. Nothing to hope for as we'll have inherited all things. So, for me, it has to be Jesus as "that which is perfect," verses the scriptures which speak of him, even now, only through a glass darkly and still, "only here a little and there a little," at a time.
Maranatha!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,527
113
#14
We do not go to scripture to find a way to back up what we do. We use scripture to determine what we should do. Those who use scripture to justify what they are doing are not going to stop the behavior if scripture does not support the behavior. They will distort the scripture and continue on in their sin.

Jesus taught that what He was doing He did because it was written in scripture. Jesus had to correct errant teaching among the Jews but Jesus did not change the scripture. When Jesus was tempted in the desert Jesus used scripture to set the adversary to flight.

While scripture does not contain all that Jesus did it does contain all we need to serve God and glorify Him. To seek additional revelation is error and not seeking truth. After you have learned all there is to learn from the word of God you will know God has fully provided for your care and wellbeing. It will take all of your lifetime to learn all that can be learned and that will not be half enough.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,526
113
#15
Interesting... it could be that the 'greater things' refers to a larger volume of the same thing.

But we have an example of a new thing with Acts 2. We have no record of Jesus ever speaking in tongues, yet in Acts we see tongues introduced among His followers. We never saw Jesus condemn any person to die (He did curse a fig tree, and it withered). Yet in Acts 5 we see Peter speak death to Ananias and Sapphira. So there are indeed things occurring post-ascension that Jesus never did.

It does fall in line with the 'similar' response, what happened with Ananias and Peter is in some ways similar to the interaction between Jesus and the tree.

So the question is, where is the line? For example, if Jesus calmed a stormy sea, would it be along the same line for one of us to in His Name to stir up a calm one, a similar but scripturally unreported act?

I would offer. Jesus as the Son of man, seen, was restricted from the works of the Holy Spirit . He said if he did not leave by disappearing out of sight the Holy Spirit would not come. Even when called good teacher as Master he refused to take credit but said only God (not seen) is good ….in order to establish we walk by faith not by sight.

The Holy Spirit of God the anointing teacher came during Pentecost and fullfed the promise (Isaiah 28:11) of speaking in all the languages and not Hebrew alone .A sign of the Holy Spirit mocking the Jew that refused to hear the word of God(prophecy) mocking God in exchange of the oral traditions of men as the things of men that do offend the things of God not seen
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
367
83
#16
Hey! OneFaith... PTL!
imo: The "that which is perfect," can't be the NT scriptures because the partial hasn't been done away as yet, sadly. I still see the truth as though it was through a glass darkly. I still only know in part and not as fully as I myself am known of the Lord, sadly. I still do not see that which is perfect, face to face, sadly. Its true that the NT scriptures weren't added until after the church was already spread across the known world, but like the OT believer we study the scriptures; they to insure that they do according to all that is written. We of the NT, study to have the Holy Spirit: 1) make the word itself to come alive and be Jesus speaking to us, Spirit to spirit and we learn of him. 2) Writes the Lord's laws and commandments upon the tables of both our hearts and our minds which renews our consciences, bringing us who are trained thereby toward a personal righteousness. 3) Leads us into those exceedingly great and precious promises whereby we might be made partakers of the Lord's divine nature.

But when Jesus comes there will be no more seeing through a glass darkly, but rather we'll see him as he is for we shall be like him. We will no longer be absent from the Lord like we are now, but rather we'll know him as someone who is one with the Lord from then on and forever. No more faith required for what we already posses. Nothing to hope for as we'll have inherited all things. So, for me, it has to be Jesus as "that which is perfect," verses the scriptures which speak of him, even now, only through a glass darkly and still, "only here a little and there a little," at a time.
Maranatha!
Forgive me if I don't know what "PTL" means. "That which is perfect/complete" is God's Word to us. We no longer have only part of what He wants to say to us, but all of what He wants to say. If prophets told us all, there would be no need for the rest of the bible. Which is why they said they can only prophesy in part (partially). To get the proper meaning of what was in part and what is complete (or what was not perfect but is now perfect- depending on your translation), you have to consider the scriptures attached to it mentioning that.

It says what was in part is God's Word through a prophet- subject being "God's Word" But when God's Word is complete (or made perfect) what was incomplete will soon disappear. The reason it says "soon" is because when that was written the bible had not been completed yet. When it was completed Jesus Himself said it is finished, and not to add to nor take away from it. If the perfect/completeness was referring to Jesus coming again why would it also say "...but faith, hope, and love still remain"? Who needs hope after Christ's return?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,526
113
#18
Miracles had a purpose- to I.D. that the old testament prophets were truly from God, that Jesus truly was the Christ, and that the 12 apostles were hand-picked by Christ Himself. That purpose has been fulfilled. We no longer need to hear God's Word through a prophet because we now have the complete Word of God (bible), therefore we no longer need miracles to prove who they are...

"We know in part, and prophesy in part, but when completion comes what was only partial will disappear. But faith, hope, and love will remain." If something remains that indicates that something else was taken away. So what was taken away in order for the others to remain? Miracles.

There are some things that Jesus said that were only for those at the time, and not for those in later times.
My two cents. What was taken away was that which was in part, the incomplete non perfect word of God, prophecy. Today for the last two thousand years we have the complete, perfect .

It's how we view miracles . Miracles are simply miracles no more no less .God performs miracle indiscriminately every day , He is not served by human hands.

In one sense its a miracle we wake up on the green side of the grass, daily . Here today gone tomorrow

God is God, no less.

The word apostle translated into English simply means "sent one" with no other meaning added. .God sent Abraham and Moses as sent ones or according the Greek word, apostles. He sends all his prophets with words not coming from the prophets will as our private interpretations .Every man has a private interpretation of His interpretation by studying His word seeking His approval, as personal commentaries.

When men who have no faith as it is written attribute the work of God not seen to those seen it provided the foundation of mythology .Therefore making men into many gods .

The necromancy the foundation of Catholicism as patron saints or what the scripture calls workers with familial spirits (3500 and rising gods ) called a legion .(many gods)

Acts 14 gives us an great example of men who blaspheme the name by which we are called heavenward .The reason the apostles rent their clothing as a sign against those who have no faith

Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:Acts 14: 10 -15

Mercury, Latin Mercurius, in Roman religion,bof shopkeepers and merchants, travelers and transporters of goods, and thieves and tricksters. He is commonly identified with the Greek Hermes, the fleet-footed messenger of the gods.

Jupiter is the supreme god of the Roman pantheon, called dies pater, "shining father".( the Pope or called the Holy See)He is a god of light and sky, and protector of the state and its laws. He is a son of Saturn and brother of Neptune and Juno (who is also his wife)......the queen of heaven
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
786
113
#19
So, would the last couple of posts mean that when Jesus said those who follow Him would do even greater things than He did, that was a limited time offer that stopped being true with the assembly of our current Bible?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,526
113
#20
So, would the last couple of posts mean that when Jesus said those who follow Him would do even greater things than He did, that was a limited time offer that stopped being true with the assembly of our current Bible?
There is nothing greater than raising the spiritual dead as born again persons, as the gospel. The greater has to do with numbers. The Son of man according to his three year ministry who was limited to perhaps five hundred followers informs us unless he goes away disappearing out of sight , the Holy Spirit would not come.

The Holy Spirit came and spoke through Peter... in the twinkling of the eye three thousand souls, the greater number, entered the kingdom of God the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as His bride the church as born again believers.

Those who seek after a sign before they believe would have us believe they can resurrect the dead,and drink poison. But take them to a cemetery and they prove it is useless .Have them drink poison and they will die.

The Holy Spirit is still quickening the souls of men giving them an eternal spirit that will be raised on the last day to receive the final promise of their new faith. their new incorruptible bodies.