Colossians 1:15-17 and Oneness Pentecostals

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#1
This is an interesting article on how 'oneness pentecostals' try and explain away the Apostle Pauls clear teaching. including notes below the article that are interesting in their own right.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him [en autō] all things [panta] were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things [panta] have been created through Him [di’ autou] and for Him [eis auton]. He is before all things, [autos estin pro pantōn] and in Him [en autō] all things [panta] hold together (emphasis added).


Words could not be more clearly spoken then what we have right here in this letter to the Colossians. Paul leaves nothing to ambiguity in confronting the false teaching of his day: the Son is presented as the actual Creator of all things. Yet, in spite of the straightforward language of the apostle, Oneness teacher, David Bernard, tries to circumvent the language of the text:
Perhaps these scriptural passages have a deeper meaning that can be expressed as follows: Although the Son did not exist at the time of creation except as the word in the mind of God, God used His foreknowledge of the Son when He created the world. . . . The plan of the Son was in God’s mind at creation and was necessary for the creation to be successful. Therefore, He created the world by the Son.1
Thus, Oneness teachers posit an awkward proposition: passages that speak of the Son as the Creator mean that when God the Father (i.e., Jesus’ divine nature) created all things, He had the “plan of the Son” in mind or in view. However, to say “God used His foreknowledge of the Son when He created the world” assumes unitarianism and disallows normal exegesis.
In verses 13-15, Paul clearly differentiates Jesus from the Father. Thus, from the start, verses 13-15 contextually preclude the Oneness notion that Jesus is both the Father and the Son:
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He [the Son] is the image of the invisible God [the Father] (emphasis added).
The main purpose of the book of Colossians was to refute the Gnostic ideology (i.e., proto-Gnosticism): spirit vs. matter. Hence, they did not believe that Jesus could ever create something as evil as “matter.” Accordingly, the docetic brand of Gnosticism (flowering in the first cent.) denied that Jesus had a “physical” body and was Creator of “all things,” as I have pointed out elsewhere. Hence, both Paul and John refuted this form of Gnosticism (e.g., Col. 1:14ff.; 2:9; 1 John 4:1ff.; 2 John 7). Correspondingly, in verses 15-17, Paul provides a clear anti-Gnostic polemic by demonstrating that Jesus the Son of God did in fact create all things.
He first states that the Son is the very “image [eikōn] of the invisible God,” something that the Gnostics categorically denied. Then in verses 16-17, Paul teaches in the strongest way possible that Jesus the Son (cf. v. 14) is the actual Agent of creation. Note the clear and potent (and even redundant) way he presents this:
By Him [en autō] all things [panta] were created . . . all things [panta] have been created through Him [di’ autou] and for Him [eis auton]. He is before all things [autos estin pro pantōn], and in Him [en autō] all things [panta] hold together.
Consider the following grammatical aspects:​
1. Paul employs the neuter panta (“all things”), which indicates, in Paul’s mind, that the Son was the actual Creator of all things. “It is significant,” says White, “that Paul does not use the more popular terms pas or pan, both of which had meanings in Greek philosophy that allowed the creation to be a part of God or God a part of creation (as in pantheism). Instead he uses a term that makes the creation a concrete, separate entity with the real existence.”2
Paul utilizes three different prepositions to amplify his declaration that the Son was the Agent of creation: All things were created “by/in Him” (en + dative; vv. 16-17); “through Him” (dia + genitive; v. 16); and “for Him” (eis + accusative; v. 16). Again, Paul is speaking here of the Son, not the Father (cf. v. 14).
3. Finally, what immediately shuts down the “Son in view” notion, which is asserted by Oneness teachers is that Paul specifically says that “all things” were created “through [dia] Him [autou]” (viz. the Son). In particular, the preposition dia followed by the genitive autou indicates that the Son was not merely an instrument of creation, but rather the Creator Himself. In Greek, dia followed by the genitive case ending clearly indicates “agency” or “means.”3 There is no stronger way in which Paul could have communicated that the Son was the real and actual Agent of creation4 (also dia + genitive at John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; and Heb. 1:2).
If Paul wanted to convey the idea that the Son was merely “in view” of the Father or an absent instrument of creation, as Oneness teachers assert, he would not have used dia followed by the genitive. Rather he would have used, exclusively, dia followed by the accusative case ending, but he does not. Yes, Paul does use the accusative, but after the preposition eis (meaning, “for,” or “because of”): “all things are for Him [eis auton]” (v. 16).
Hence, the Oneness theological assumption that the Son was not the Agent of creation, but merely in view of creation, cannot stand grammatically or contextually—it changes the intended meaning of the text and ignores the chief theme of the letter. The Oneness interpretation would actually support, in essence, the very error that Paul was refuting.

===Notes:===
1. David K. Bernard, The Oneness of God (Hazelwood: Word Aflame, 1983), 116-17.
2. James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity: Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief [Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1998], 213, n. 17.

3. Cf. Walter Bauer’s, A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., ed. and rev. by Frederick W. Danker [BDAG] [Chicago: University of Chicago, 2000], 225; Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, with Scripture, Subject, and Greek Word Indexes (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 68; J. Harold Greenlee, A Concise Exegetical Grammar of New Testament Greek, 5th ed. [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1986], 31; Archibald T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament [Nashville: Broadman Press, 1932], 4:478-79.

4. Oneness teachers argue that Son could not have been the Agent of creation because passages like Isaiah 44:24 (“I, the LORD maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone”) teach that God (viz. the Father) alone created all things. Also asserted is 1 Corinthians 8: 6: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things. . . .” But as pointed out elsewhere, Oneness teachers assume unitarianism, that is, God as one Person—the Father. Hence, they start with that assumption and argue therefrom. The doctrine of the Trinity, however, teaches that God is one undivided and unquantifiable Being who has revealed Himself as three distinct coequal, coeternal, and coexistent Persons. Hence, the three Persons share the nature (ousia) of the one Being. Thus, as fully God it can be said that the Father is the Creator (cf. Acts 17:24), the Son is the Creator (cf. John 1:3; Col. 16-17; Heb. 1:10), and the Holy Spirit is the Creator (cf. Job 33:4). For God is one indivisible, inseparable, and unquantifiable Being. So, passages like Isaiah 44:24, which say that God created by Himself and alone are perfectly consistent with Trinitarian theology. Again, the three Persons are not three separate Beings; they are distinct self-conscious Persons or Selves sharing the nature of the one Being. Unless this is made clear, the biblical doctrine of the Trinity will be confounded and misapprehended.
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#2
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist(Colossians 1:15-17).

Jesus is the image of the invisible God-Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God robed in the the human body of His Son,the man Christ Jesus.
God showed a visible manifestation of Himself to the Jews by appearing as Jesus,and spoke to the Jews by the man Christ Jesus.
Nobody can see God or can see God.Jesus is God showing Himself visibly by manifesting all His attributes to His Son,the man Christ Jesus,and spoke to His people as He promised in the Old Testament.
Jesus is God showing Himself in a visible manifestation and the way the saints will see the invisible God for eternity.
The Bible is the word of God,God revealing Himself by words in a book.
The Word of God is God revealing Himself personally to His people by manifesting all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,God's personal human body.

The firstborn of every creature-The Son,the man Christ Jesus,was not born until 4000 years after the creation,but He is the first firstborn of all creation,because God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future and be the head of mankind before He created Adam and Eve,so it was the same as the Son being the firstborn because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.
The Son is the firstborn although He was not born until 4000 years later.
Everything hinges on the plan that the Son will provide salvation for all the world and be head of the Church,and without that plan God would not of created anything that He created(John 1:3).
All of creation was created with the plan that Jesus is the savior of the world for that is the only way that creation could be successful but the Son was not born until 4000 years after the creation but can still be the firstborn because He was a plan in the mind of God to be the savior of the world and all things were created with that plan,so it is the same as if He is the firstborn even though He was not born until 4000 years later,for God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.
The Bible says He is the firstborn of all creation which can be understood if you know the truth,for He was not born until 4000 years after the creation.
He is the firstborn of all creation.Can people who believe in a trinity explain how He can be the firstborn if they believe He has no beginning.If they believe He is a created God,the Bible says God the Father said no God would be formed after Him.

All of creation was created with the plan of Jesus being the savior of the world,for that is the only way that there can be a kingdom for people to dwell,and all things were created for Him,for He is the head of all things ,the Church,that can only be established with Jesus being the savior.

All things were created by Him for He is God,the one true God,and He is before all things He is God,and the Son is a plan of God to happen in the future so it is the same as if He is the firstborn.

The truth is that there is only one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

The Son is God the Father in visible activity.The Son,the man Christ Jesus,is the personal human body of God the Father,and the way the saints will see the invisible God for all eternity.

The Holy Spirit is God the Father in invisible activity.

God had the plan in His mind to manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,who would be God the Father's own personal human body,before He laid down the foundation of the world.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future who would be the savior of the world,and the head of the Church,and the only way that there could be a kingdom,before He laid down the foundation of the world.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future who would be the head of all creation,and with Him being the savior of the world,for the kingdom to come about,before He laid down the foundation of the world.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future,but it was the same as if the Son was the firstborn,for God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

Jesus is God and there is no other God.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son,the man Christ Jesus,to be the savior of the world,and all creation hinged on the Son,the man Christ,for without Him there would be no kingdom,so it is the same as the Son being the firstborn even though He was not born until 4000 years later because God calls things that have not yet happened(the birth of the Son,the man Christ Jesus) as though it already happened.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus,not a second person of a trinity,who was a plan of God in His mind to have born in the future,so it is the same as if the Son were already in the beginning,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

The trinity doctrine has so many holes in it.

There are so many contradictions in the Bible concerning a trinity.

It was the apostolic way at the first until people changed it to a trinity and it became popular that they think it is the truth.

If you believe in a trinity you have much to explain about all the scriptures that go against the trinity.The strange thing is the people that believe in a trinity ignore those scriptures.

There are only 3 being God,angels,and people,and God is not 3 persons in one God.

Matt
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#3
So you keep saying mpaper, however, church history has never belived that, anyhow we have been there.

Here is something for you to think about:

1) If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

2) Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

Blessings

Phil
 
Jul 8, 2010
309
3
0
#4
Also a further blow to some of their statements. I have seen a lot of them pull out this section of revelations
Revelation 4

The Throne in Heaven

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
Saying well there is only one throne so god cant be three beings because where would they sit. WHat they fail to include is chapter 5
Revelation 5

The Scroll and the Lamb

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Multiple times they reference multiple beings. Bolded for ease of location.


The best one is Revelation 5:6-7
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

The lamb that was slain comes and takes the scroll out of the hand of him who sat on the throne. That right there bascially proves the existence of the trinity.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#5
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist(Colossians 1:15-17).

Jesus is the image of the invisible God-Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God robed in the the human body of His Son,the man Christ Jesus.
Notice how you changed image (eikon) to manifest (phaneroo). There is a great difference. I can say my son is "the image of his father", but I cannot say that he is the "manifestation" of me, because he is his own person.
God showed a visible manifestation of Himself to the Jews by appearing as Jesus,and spoke to the Jews by the man Christ Jesus.
To reduce Jesus to a "visible manifestation" is to undermine salvation itself.
Nobody can see God or can see God.Jesus is God showing Himself visibly by manifesting all His attributes to His Son,the man Christ Jesus,and spoke to His people as He promised in the Old Testament.
Jesus is God showing Himself in a visible manifestation and the way the saints will see the invisible God for eternity.
Jesus revealed the Father. This is the act of one person concerning another person. This idea of "this is how the saints will see him" doesn't really match, since Jesus in His glory is distinctive in appearrance.

The Bible is the word of God,God revealing Himself by words in a book.
The Word of God is God revealing Himself personally to His people by manifesting all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,God's personal human body.
This is wrong in so many ways that it is hard to begin. Now the hologram has become an automoton, incarnation has become possession.

The firstborn of every creature-The Son,the man Christ Jesus,was not born until 4000 years after the creation,but He is the first firstborn of all creation,because God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future and be the head of mankind before He created Adam and Eve,so it was the same as the Son being the firstborn because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.
The Son is the firstborn although He was not born until 4000 years later.
Everything hinges on the plan that the Son will provide salvation for all the world and be head of the Church,and without that plan God would not of created anything that He created(John 1:3).
This is a complete rewriting of what was said. "All things came into being through Him [The Word/Jesus] and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." This is not a statement of the Father's intent, but rather God the Son's direct and central role in creation.
All of creation was created with the plan that Jesus is the savior of the world for that is the only way that creation could be successful but the Son was not born until 4000 years after the creation but can still be the firstborn because He was a plan in the mind of God to be the savior of the world and all things were created with that plan,so it is the same as if He is the firstborn even though He was not born until 4000 years later,for God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.
The Bible says He is the firstborn of all creation which can be understood if you know the truth,for He was not born until 4000 years after the creation.
He is the firstborn of all creation.Can people who believe in a trinity explain how He can be the firstborn if they believe He has no beginning.If they believe He is a created God,the Bible says God the Father said no God would be formed after Him.

All of creation was created with the plan of Jesus being the savior of the world,for that is the only way that there can be a kingdom for people to dwell,and all things were created for Him,for He is the head of all things ,the Church,that can only be established with Jesus being the savior.

All things were created by Him for He is God,the one true God,and He is before all things He is God,and the Son is a plan of God to happen in the future so it is the same as if He is the firstborn.
The Word was with God from the beginning. He was not merely a plan, He was God.

The truth is that there is only one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

The Son is God the Father in visible activity.The Son,the man Christ Jesus,is the personal human body of God the Father,and the way the saints will see the invisible God for all eternity.
The Son is not a shell for the Father's activity. He is a person.

The Holy Spirit is God the Father in invisible activity.
The Holy Spirit is capable of visible activity.

God had the plan in His mind to manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,who would be God the Father's own personal human body,before He laid down the foundation of the world.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future who would be the savior of the world,and the head of the Church,and the only way that there could be a kingdom,before He laid down the foundation of the world.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future who would be the head of all creation,and with Him being the savior of the world,for the kingdom to come about,before He laid down the foundation of the world.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son born in the future,but it was the same as if the Son was the firstborn,for God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

Jesus is God and there is no other God.

God had the plan in His mind to have the Son,the man Christ Jesus,to be the savior of the world,and all creation hinged on the Son,the man Christ,for without Him there would be no kingdom,so it is the same as the Son being the firstborn even though He was not born until 4000 years later because God calls things that have not yet happened(the birth of the Son,the man Christ Jesus) as though it already happened.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus,not a second person of a trinity,who was a plan of God in His mind to have born in the future,so it is the same as if the Son were already in the beginning,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

The trinity doctrine has so many holes in it.
None of whcih you have demonstrated.
There are so many contradictions in the Bible concerning a trinity.
Without the trinity you end up with contradictions.
It was the apostolic way at the first until people changed it to a trinity and it became popular that they think it is the truth.
The trinity is a desription of what is scriptural. The writers of the New Testament laid out the theology.

If you believe in a trinity you have much to explain about all the scriptures that go against the trinity.The strange thing is the people that believe in a trinity ignore those scriptures.
I am more than willing to discuss any scripture.

There are only 3 being God,angels,and people,and God is not 3 persons in one God.

Matt
You have officially moved me from being annoyed at your theology to being frightened.
 
R

Ricke

Guest
#6
The Bible teaches not to cast pearls to the swine.....Amen
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#7
The Bible teaches not to cast pearls to the swine.....Amen
Think about this Ricke:
1. He says that Jesus is only a visible manifestation. This undermines the incarnation and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.
2. He says that God did this so that people would know what God looks like in heaven.
3. He calls Jesus Christ "God's personal body", like it is a personal transportation device. He turns Jesus Christ into an automoton.
4. He turns Jesus role in creation into a mere "idea in God's mind."

Do you support his theology fully?
By the way, the pearls before swine thing, now that will scare off the sharks. I am beginning to think that you like the conflict.
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#8
This is an interesting article on how 'oneness pentecostals' try and explain away the Apostle Pauls clear teaching. including notes below the article that are interesting in their own right.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him [en autō] all things [panta] were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things [panta] have been created through Him [di’ autou] and for Him [eis auton]. He is before all things, [autos estin pro pantōn] and in Him [en autō] all things [panta] hold together (emphasis added).


Words could not be more clearly spoken then what we have right here in this letter to the Colossians. Paul leaves nothing to ambiguity in confronting the false teaching of his day: the Son is presented as the actual Creator of all things. Yet, in spite of the straightforward language of the apostle, Oneness teacher, David Bernard, tries to circumvent the language of the text:
Perhaps these scriptural passages have a deeper meaning that can be expressed as follows: Although the Son did not exist at the time of creation except as the word in the mind of God, God used His foreknowledge of the Son when He created the world. . . . The plan of the Son was in God’s mind at creation and was necessary for the creation to be successful. Therefore, He created the world by the Son.1
Thus, Oneness teachers posit an awkward proposition: passages that speak of the Son as the Creator mean that when God the Father (i.e., Jesus’ divine nature) created all things, He had the “plan of the Son” in mind or in view. However, to say “God used His foreknowledge of the Son when He created the world” assumes unitarianism and disallows normal exegesis.
In verses 13-15, Paul clearly differentiates Jesus from the Father. Thus, from the start, verses 13-15 contextually preclude the Oneness notion that Jesus is both the Father and the Son:
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He [the Son] is the image of the invisible God [the Father] (emphasis added).
The main purpose of the book of Colossians was to refute the Gnostic ideology (i.e., proto-Gnosticism): spirit vs. matter. Hence, they did not believe that Jesus could ever create something as evil as “matter.” Accordingly, the docetic brand of Gnosticism (flowering in the first cent.) denied that Jesus had a “physical” body and was Creator of “all things,” as I have pointed out elsewhere. Hence, both Paul and John refuted this form of Gnosticism (e.g., Col. 1:14ff.; 2:9; 1 John 4:1ff.; 2 John 7). Correspondingly, in verses 15-17, Paul provides a clear anti-Gnostic polemic by demonstrating that Jesus the Son of God did in fact create all things.
He first states that the Son is the very “image [eikōn] of the invisible God,” something that the Gnostics categorically denied. Then in verses 16-17, Paul teaches in the strongest way possible that Jesus the Son (cf. v. 14) is the actual Agent of creation. Note the clear and potent (and even redundant) way he presents this:
By Him [en autō] all things [panta] were created . . . all things [panta] have been created through Him [di’ autou] and for Him [eis auton]. He is before all things [autos estin pro pantōn], and in Him [en autō] all things [panta] hold together.
Consider the following grammatical aspects:​

1. Paul employs the neuter panta (“all things”), which indicates, in Paul’s mind, that the Son was the actual Creator of all things. “It is significant,” says White, “that Paul does not use the more popular terms pas or pan, both of which had meanings in Greek philosophy that allowed the creation to be a part of God or God a part of creation (as in pantheism). Instead he uses a term that makes the creation a concrete, separate entity with the real existence.”2
Paul utilizes three different prepositions to amplify his declaration that the Son was the Agent of creation: All things were created “by/in Him” (en + dative; vv. 16-17); “through Him” (dia + genitive; v. 16); and “for Him” (eis + accusative; v. 16). Again, Paul is speaking here of the Son, not the Father (cf. v. 14).
3. Finally, what immediately shuts down the “Son in view” notion, which is asserted by Oneness teachers is that Paul specifically says that “all things” were created “through [dia] Him [autou]” (viz. the Son). In particular, the preposition dia followed by the genitive autou indicates that the Son was not merely an instrument of creation, but rather the Creator Himself. In Greek, dia followed by the genitive case ending clearly indicates “agency” or “means.”3 There is no stronger way in which Paul could have communicated that the Son was the real and actual Agent of creation4 (also dia + genitive at John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; and Heb. 1:2).
If Paul wanted to convey the idea that the Son was merely “in view” of the Father or an absent instrument of creation, as Oneness teachers assert, he would not have used dia followed by the genitive. Rather he would have used, exclusively, dia followed by the accusative case ending, but he does not. Yes, Paul does use the accusative, but after the preposition eis (meaning, “for,” or “because of”): “all things are for Him [eis auton]” (v. 16).
Hence, the Oneness theological assumption that the Son was not the Agent of creation, but merely in view of creation, cannot stand grammatically or contextually—it changes the intended meaning of the text and ignores the chief theme of the letter. The Oneness interpretation would actually support, in essence, the very error that Paul was refuting.

===Notes:===
1. David K. Bernard, The Oneness of God (Hazelwood: Word Aflame, 1983), 116-17.
2. James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity: Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief [Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1998], 213, n. 17.

3. Cf. Walter Bauer’s, A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., ed. and rev. by Frederick W. Danker [BDAG] [Chicago: University of Chicago, 2000], 225; Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, with Scripture, Subject, and Greek Word Indexes (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 68; J. Harold Greenlee, A Concise Exegetical Grammar of New Testament Greek, 5th ed. [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1986], 31; Archibald T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament [Nashville: Broadman Press, 1932], 4:478-79.

4. Oneness teachers argue that Son could not have been the Agent of creation because passages like Isaiah 44:24 (“I, the LORD maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone”) teach that God (viz. the Father) alone created all things. Also asserted is 1 Corinthians 8: 6: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things. . . .” But as pointed out elsewhere, Oneness teachers assume unitarianism, that is, God as one Person—the Father. Hence, they start with that assumption and argue therefrom. The doctrine of the Trinity, however, teaches that God is one undivided and unquantifiable Being who has revealed Himself as three distinct coequal, coeternal, and coexistent Persons. Hence, the three Persons share the nature (ousia) of the one Being. Thus, as fully God it can be said that the Father is the Creator (cf. Acts 17:24), the Son is the Creator (cf. John 1:3; Col. 16-17; Heb. 1:10), and the Holy Spirit is the Creator (cf. Job 33:4). For God is one indivisible, inseparable, and unquantifiable Being. So, passages like Isaiah 44:24, which say that God created by Himself and alone are perfectly consistent with Trinitarian theology. Again, the three Persons are not three separate Beings; they are distinct self-conscious Persons or Selves sharing the nature of the one Being. Unless this is made clear, the biblical doctrine of the Trinity will be confounded and misapprehended.
when it says that everything has been put under him(Jesus) it is clear that this does not include God Himself. 1Cor15:27

That is absolutely clear teaching, but does everyone accept it?
 
S

studentofgod

Guest
#9
what was the first and last thing a devoted jew would say each day
 
R

Ricke

Guest
#10
What would a Jew say?

Here o Israel, The lord our God is One Lord.
 
S

studentofgod

Guest
#12
So the average devout Jew probably said the shama anywhere’s from 10000 to 40000 times in their life time would it not be a safe to assume that Jews did not believe in a trinity of God . Any of the Jews that I have searched now do not believe in the trinity
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#13
So the average devout Jew probably said the shama anywhere’s from 10000 to 40000 times in their life time would it not be a safe to assume that Jews did not believe in a trinity of God . Any of the Jews that I have searched now do not believe in the trinity
Absolutely. That's why on several occasion they picked up stones to kill Jesus.
 
S

studentofgod

Guest
#14
So at what point did Jesus teach them about the trinity,or when does the bible teach us about
the trinity ?It does say a lot of things that at first glance that could make a person question oneness. But the bible devotes so many verses to teach the Jews how their old belief system has changed ex circumcision and how they are not under the law anymore. Why would the inspired scripture thoroughly explain these concepts but not the trinity?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#15
So at what point did Jesus teach them about the trinity,or when does the bible teach us about
the trinity ?It does say a lot of things that at first glance that could make a person question oneness. But the bible devotes so many verses to teach the Jews how their old belief system has changed ex circumcision and how they are not under the law anymore. Why would the inspired scripture thoroughly explain these concepts but not the trinity?
It is safe to say that the New Covenant is christian, therefore we do not read scripture with jewish eyes. Anyhow.

The concepts of the law were covenant, All the covenants were made by the same God.

God is one, Monotheistic. yet distinctly three persons, we can see all the plural names for God in Hebrew, infact as I posted in answer to Israel, the Rabbis where never to sure how to handle the distinct texts concerning these plural identities.

God is one, there have no other Gods before me, that is correct is it not? this was a major distinction, between the God os the Israelites and the surrounding pagan nations who had multiple Gods. rather than say it again I have copied below what I wrote in the colosians thread::

Hi Israel, thanks for your answer. Of course I wholeheartedly agree with you that God is One of course He is, this is revealed in scripture and it is this fact that seperated Israe'ls God from the religions of multiple Gods around them! Ie, Monotheistic. Can you see what's happened here, there is a difference between the monotheistic God of Israel to surrounding nations of multiple God's.

Now I know you know of the plural names in Hebrew for God! Christianity is a monotheistic. yet God has progressively revealed Himself in scripture as one, yet three persons, co equal, co eternal.

So your are totally correct the God of the OT is monotheistic, and He is the same God from all time and Has revealed Himself progressively throughout.

The New is in the old concealed, and now revealed. the veil has been lifted. from the lesser to the greater, this also will answer Distinctive regarding his supposedly proof text of Corinthians.

Also here are a couple of questions for you:

1) If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

2) If the “Son” has not eternally existed with (personally distinct from) the Father why then is the Son presented as the Agent of creation, that is, the Creator? (for in Oneness theology only Jesus as the “Father” mode existed prior to Bethlehem).

Blessings

Phil
l
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#16
Phil,

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh which means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,God the Father's own personal human body.

We are people that have the Spirit and we pray to God to help us to overcome the flesh and other things.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus who the Father has given the Spirit to Him without measure,and it pleased the Father that in Him all fulness should dwell.

We are people who the Father has given the Spirit but we have the Spirit with measure,for we do not have the Spirit in the fulness.

The Son,the man Christ Jesus,has the Spirit without measure,all of God's attributes,and God the Father's personal human body.

God manifest to the Son the man Christ Jesus all of His attributes,all His wisdom,all His power,all His love and mercy.

We saints have the Spirit with measure,some of God's wisdom but we will never have all of God's wisdom,some of God's power for certain things but not all of God's power.We can however have all of God's mercy and love for people.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus.God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Son is the personal human body of God the Father.

The Bible says that there is one God,and one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus.

The man Christ Jesus is our savior for only a holy man can approach a holy God on man's behalf.

No man is sinless so God the Father manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus to be our savior as promised in the Old Testament.

The Bible said God laid down His life for us,and the Holy Spirit purchased the Church with His own blood.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus,not a second person of a trinity.

The Son,the man Christ Jesus,who is our savior,has the fulness of the attributes of God,and God the Father's own personal human being,and the way the saints will see the invisible God for eternity.

The saints have partial attributes form God.

Like the saints have to pray to the Father for things,the Son,the man Christ Jesus,had to pray to the Father for things.

When Jesus prayed to the Father,it was the man Christ Jesus that was praying to the Father,on behalf of Himself and for people.

There are only 3 beings God,not 3 persons in one God,angels,and people.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus who had to do everything that a man had to do to be right with God to reconcile us to God.

Nobody can be our savior except a man.No man is sinless so God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and God the Father gave His own human body as a sacrifice for our sins.

The Son,the man Christ Jesus,prayed to the Father in the garden,that if there were any other way that man could have salvation apart from going to the cross,could it be done,but if there is no other way thy will be done.The Son,the man Christ Jesus,was not trying to get out of going to the cross,but wanted to know if there was any other way,but joyfully went to the cross,for it was the Father's will.

The distinction between the Father and Son is not God the Father and God the Son,but the distinction between the Father and Son is God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.

There is no God the Son.

Jesus prayed as a man to the Father for God does not need to pray to God.

You do not understand and are trying to make it God the Father and God the Son,and do not understand that the Father and Son,the man Christ Jesus,are one in the person of Jesus Christ.

The man Christ Jesus is our savior.

Like we have to pray to the Father,the Son,the man Christ Jesus,had to pray to the Father.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus and not a second person of a trinity.The Holy Spirit is the Father.

It was the Holy Spirit that moved upon the face of the deep and created all things.It was the Holy Spirit that caused the conception in the womb of Mary.It is the Holy Spirit that lead us to do God's will.

The Holy Spirit is God in spiritual activity,not a 3rd person of a trinity.God the Father is a Holy Spirit.

The Son,the man Christ Jesus,is God in visible activity,showing us a human manifestation of Himself,to provide salvation,and the visible relationship to the saints.

It is a man that has to provide salvation.It is a man that has to be head of the Church.

No man is capable of doing that so God the Father gave all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus to provide salvation,and be head of the Church,and it is God' own personal human being.

It is a man that has to save us,and if there were a God the Son,he could not do it,for only a man can save us.

God created us and we can have the Spirit,and God gave the man Christ Jesus the fulness of His attributes to be the savior and to be head of the Church.

You are trying to make it out to be God the Father and God the Son,when it is God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus,who is the personal human body of God the Father.

What throws you off is baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,Jesus at the right hand of God,and other terminology that you do not understand.

All things in the Bible can be explained to prove that there is only one God the Father,and Jesus is that one God.

The trinity doctrine does not hold up when you use scriptures against it.

Matt
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#17
Hi Matt, that is only your logical thought process, and not proper Scripture use.

here are 3 very simple questions, I would love to here your scripturally based answers!

1) If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

2) If the “Son” has not eternally existed with (personally distinct from) the Father why then is the Son presented as the Agent of creation, that is, the Creator? (for in Oneness theology only Jesus as the “Father” mode existed prior to Bethlehem).

3) If Oneness doctrine (or Modalism) is the so-called doctrine of the apostles, then, why was it universally condemned as *heretical* by the early church Fathers (some of who were disciples of the original apostles) and condemned by all the important church councils and creeds?

It would be good if you could number your answer so as we can see your clear scripturall answers,

Thank you

Phil
 
S

studentofgod

Guest
#18
Phil I appreciate your answer but I am not a theologian. I don’t know if the names were plural in the Hebrew language (but I have heard that Yahweh means "he will be" in a third person singular) . I am simply trying to look at this matter in a logical common sense kind of way. Why would the scripture spend so much time teaching people that they are no longer under the law when the number one commandment is being supposedly misunderstood by his people (the Jews of that time).
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#19
Hi StudentofGod,

Thanks for your reply, I understand what you mean.

And you are right we are not under the law, which the Jews deny, and what we have to remember the Jews also deny that Jesus was their Messiah, and rejected Him. In our Bibles, we mainly just have three english words, LORD, Lord and God, In Hebrew (I am not a Scholar either) the names used for God have pluralaties to them, adjectives and nouns etc.. you can actually check this out online very easily if you wanted too.

As I say, Scripture is progressive revelation, God does not tells us all things at once. for example in Genesis God said let us make man in our image, who is God talking to? You will find in Jewish thought a couple of things here and one of them the oneness pentecostals will try and use, but both are not true,

1) That God is talking to the Angels, this cannot be true as we are not made in the image of angels, but in the image of God.

2) Magisterial plurality, the oneness guys use this one. they say it is like a king saying.. "we pardon you from your crime!" However, this is not convincing as in Hebrew there are no instances or in the language for royalty and a plurality of a king.

Hope that helps a bit, we must remember that we do not read scripture with Jewish religion but through the lenses of the New Covenant in Christ that they vehemently deny.

Blessings

Phil
 
S

studentofgod

Guest
#20
i am trying to see the scriptures as the early church did without out any preconception. If god wanted them to know something he made it clear . One of the reasons Jews reject Christianity is because of the preconception of the tinity