Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

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Jun 12, 2021
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#21
With the prophets and apostles, they had an extremely difficult existence. Hated, dishonored, beaten, lonely, and many endured horrible deaths. I find it interesting so many today can claim to have the same abilities, but lack the laden continuity of such a calling.
On that note, Pentecostals endure daily derision and persecution from a large section of Christendom and the world. They are misunderstood and falsely accused and in the early 1900s were shot at and beaten when they attempted to conduct tent revivals.

And in my opinion the reason that MOST people refuse to even listen to the interpretations presented by continuationists is that they are afraid of the persecution that they will receive from family, friends, and their church if they were to agree that their hermeneutic is superior to the cessationists.

The only reason that Pentecostals or non Pentecostals are not being killed today is because 1) Roman Catholics lost Secular power, and 2) The Secular powers in many countries like America have a legal system that values human life which was based on the affect that the Gospel of Jesus Christ had on the world and the human psyche as it relates to morals.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
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#22
Yes this is why i don't believe in the practicing of the gifts like prophecy. I have seen some teachers tell others to practice prophesying some practice the gifts at will but it is spirit lead not man lead it is not something we have control over what so ever we cannot practice it lose it or gain it by our own means what so ever it has nothing to do with us onoly the spirit

perhaps the argument could be made that the gifts ceased because the spirirt saw no need for them after the first church or since the bible was finnished but that would mean that God said to believe in vain because he said all things were possible with faith and i know someone who recently was cured of a massive kidney stone from her husband praying for her laying his hands on her and leaving to go home he didn't expect her to call him telling him they were gone and that the doctor was baffled.

The gifts aren't gone they just require faith
1 Cor 14:32 - the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Iow, the Holy Spirit may lead, but we may falter and not follow.

Which is different from when we try to force a gift the Spirit is not leading us to. That seldom ends well.

Paul taught the gifts and they are in action today. However, I think Paul cautioned that he'd rather we not act in them, than act incorrectly (1 Cor 14).

Thank God for the gift of discernment! (If only more of us would use it ;))
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
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#23
Precious friends, Many are still wondering about this difficult doctrine:

“Why Did God Give sign gifts to the early members of The Body Of Christ?...

...Before the Bible was complete, a complete knowledge of God’s will was impossible!
So God gave the early members of the Body of Christ a supernatural gift of knowledge
to tide them over until the Bible was finished...

...There are men on Christian television who claim to have this gift! But you know that
they don’t have the gift of faith because of the definition Paul gives us of the gift of
faith in the very next chapter of this epistle:

'...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,​
and have not charity, I am nothing' (1 Corinthians 13:2)...​
...if even an apostle as great as Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick, we have
to conclude that no one since him has been given the gift of healing either.” (R. Kurth)

Complete study here: ‘Tis Not the season for giving?

GRACE And Peace...
For those who believe the gifts have ceased, they have indeed ceased.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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#24
For those who believe the gifts have ceased, they have indeed ceased.
I believe there are a lot of so-called signs and wonders. These are what people believe in and for them yes, they're genuine miracles. They want to believe so much they'll believe anything. But to an objective observer it's very clear they're counterfeit.

I've heard so many people in signs and wonders movements, and former members, who say "something" happened. I "think" it was God, I want to believe it was. There's no doubt people experience something; but so do other mystics who aren't even Christians.
 
Jun 12, 2021
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#26
Precious friends, Many are still wondering about this difficult doctrine:

“Why Did God Give sign gifts to the early members of The Body Of Christ?...

...Before the Bible was complete, a complete knowledge of God’s will was impossible!
So God gave the early members of the Body of Christ a supernatural gift of knowledge
to tide them over until the Bible was finished...


GRACE And Peace...
Even after the bible was written we still have this promise...

19Look, I have given you the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy; nothing at all will harm you. 20However, don’t rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

So even before the NT scriptures were completed the emphasis was on salvation by grace and not on the authority over the spirits, but that did not mean that the authority over the kingdom of darkness was to be removed after the scriptures were completed. This promise continues.

And He links this authority to the healing and the casting out of the spirits. If this authority is still ours then the healing and the casting out of the spirits still is ours to do.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
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#27
I believe there are a lot of so-called signs and wonders. These are what people believe in and for them yes, they're genuine miracles. They want to believe so much they'll believe anything. But to an objective observer it's very clear they're counterfeit.

I've heard so many people in signs and wonders movements, and former members, who say "something" happened. I "think" it was God, I want to believe it was. There's no doubt people experience something; but so do other mystics who aren't even Christians.
Yeah, I've heard your lack of faith before. So let's not rehash your errors here, ok?
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
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#28
You are trying to suggest that it is all subjective. But that is hardly the case. So what miracle did you perform this year or this week?
Most recently (two weeks ago), a friend's brother suffered a major stroke. I prayed that the Holy Spirit would gift his medical team with knowledge to treat it properly. An outside doctor told them they needed to look at a particular issue they normally wouldn't have. That provided them the info they needed by which to successfully turn what could have been a fatal stroke into one that caused very little damage.

But yeah, we've discussed your lack of faith before as well, so let's just leave it at that.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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#29
Yeah, I've heard your lack of faith before. So let's not rehash your errors here, ok?
I have faith, just not in counterfeits. You would have me and everyone else think that if a person doesn't have faith in counterfeits they have no faith. Nice try.
 
Jun 12, 2021
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#31
I love the way the book of Acts ends...

30Paul stayed two whole years in his own rented house. And he welcomed all who visited him, 31proclaiming the kingdom of Goda and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldnessb and without hindrance.

This proclaiming the Kingdom of God about the Lord Jesus Christ with Boldness... what does that look like in the Gospels and in Acts?
That is what we are still supposed to be doing.
 
Jun 12, 2021
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#32
Maybe some of these miracle workers could help with the food shortages.
In the book of Acts, They prophesied about one coming. And then they took up a collection to help those who would be effected by it. That can still happen today.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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#33
I prayed that the Holy Spirit would gift his medical team with knowledge to treat it properly.
I did not ask if you prayed. I asked if you actually performed a miracle. I have already spoken about the prayer of faith for healing. We are talking about miracle workers -- signs, wonders, and miracles.
 

Edify

Active member
Jan 27, 2021
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#34
No wondering here. My position is as it's always been. Scripture doesn't specifically say signs and wonders will cease so we have to evaluate any so-called signs and wonders on their own merit. All I see are lying signs and wonders. This actually was foretold.
If I'm getting what you said right, you're saying you basically believe it but you haven't seen it yet. Is this true?
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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#35
Why not just believe like the Lord Jesus did = "It is written...............Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts,"

This is the WAY the LIFE will Judge you = by the TRUTH
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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#36
The only people who are confused over the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and His Gifts are those who do not believe all that was spoken in Gospel of John, Acts and 1 Corinthians.

"Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"

Be like little children and believe every word that comes from the Mouth of God.

It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Hey Kids - there it is again = "It is written"
 
Feb 22, 2021
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#37
There is no telling what kinds of miraculous signs will follow that believer who actually DOES what Jesus said to do and GOES forth preaching the Full Gospel.

I would rather believe it than doubt it.
So, what do we do with:

Joh_14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall He do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

Saying you don't doubt it, but believe it" is one thing; Actually obeying/carrying
it out is Quite Another, Correct? Where is "the evidence" of this being done today?
Look, I have given you the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy; nothing at all will harm you.
So, you do believe THIS is for us, Today, Under GRACE?:

Mar 16:17 And these signs Shall Follow them that believe; In My Name
Shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
Shall Not hurt them; they Shall lay hands on the sick, and they Shall recover.

Is That Because of Christ's/Twelve apostle's actions in the
[FULL] gospel of the kingdom?:​

Where there was obedience [these shall he do] and
EVERYONE was healed (Luke 4:40 cp Acts 5:16)?:

Mat 10:1 And when He had called unto Him His twelve disciples,
He gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to
heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [these shall he do]

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:
freely ye have received, freely give. [these shall he do]

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and
to heal the sick. = [these shall he do]

Luk 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat
such things as are set before you:
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick [these shall he do] that are therein, and say
unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and
scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall
by any means hurt you."

So, why is it that continuationist groups who purposely "handle
snakes and drink poisons" are having real problems with this?
Sounds plain and clear to me above, yet they do not "have the
signs following them." Are they then UNbelievers?

So, instead of just "talking about it," WHEN are the continuationists
going to get BUSY, and do ALL of the above, as Commanded By Christ.
WHEN will the rest of us SEE the proof of the results of your doctrine?

The TWELVE had no problems with [these shall he do], in Mark 16:20,
and in the book of Acts (1:8; 2:43; 3:11; 4:33; 5:12-16)

You DO wish that we would STOP our UNbelief and "would
BELIEVE your doctrine, which you say is Correct" for today, Correct?

Or, are continuationists Confused believers "trying" to obey what is
not for Today, From God, Under His Gospel Of GRACE, and having all
sorts of problems with "the [these shall he do] DOING"?
-------------------------------
How about the following? Do you Also believe It, From God's Word Of Truth?:

"Study to shew thyself Approved Unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

For example:

God's Context of prophecy/law, gospel of the kingdom, Christ, on earth to
the Twelve, with the aforementioned Scriptures, Israel in prominence

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Other Context of:

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
{Current, Today!} for The Body Of CHRIST! (Romans - Philemon)

CHRIST, And ONE “apostle To the Gentiles, our Pattern to follow!”
(Romans 11:13; 1 Timothy 1:16 KJB!)

Why would Paul, supposedly "under the SAME commission of the 12,"
believe God, and "pray THREE times" for his infirmity, and Then NOT
"be healed"? Was he Then an UNbeliever, because "the healing SIGN"
of "the Previous dispensation" was no longer "following him"?

What about Christ's Answer?:
"And HE {CHRIST} Said Unto me, MY GRACE Is Sufficient For​
thee: For MY Strength Is Made Perfect in weakness. Most
gladly therefore will I rather glory {cp} in my infirmities,
that The Power Of CHRIST May Rest Upon me!"​
(2 Corinthians 12:9) {cp 2 Corinthians 11:23-30)​

(#3 Of GRACE Word For our infirmities) No wonder God Inspired him
to Teach us Gentiles, Today, Under GRACE, This Exhortation, eh?:

"...walk by faith, NOT by sight" (signs, wonders, miracles, experiences, etc.)
(2 Corinthians 5:7)
------------------------------------------------
Please, no "words in our mouths" that God Cannot "Perform Healings today
IF He So Chooses." But:

Continuationists Must Now Decide (pick and choose), WHICH is it for us
Today, Under GRACE? Either:

1) Obey God, "do Greater works than He, with power, signs, and wonders
following them"? @Nehemiah6 Great Question: "IF you actually performed
a miracle?"
(fraudulent IF NOT, Correct?) OR:

2) "Follow our pattern, Paul, Today, Under GRACE, and have
The Power Of CHRIST Resting Upon us, in our infirmities? OR:

3) MASSIVE Confusion Caused By the wrong Combining of 1 + 2?
How is this "Approval Unto God"?
---------------------------
Much More Contradiction/Confusion Solutions are here:
Distinctions of Prophecy vs MYSTERY!

GRACE And Peace...
 
Jun 12, 2021
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#38
So, what do we do with:

Joh_14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall He do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

Saying you don't doubt it, but believe it" is one thing; Actually obeying/carrying
it out is Quite Another, Correct? Where is "the evidence" of this being done today?

So, you do believe THIS is for us, Today, Under GRACE?:

Mar 16:17 And these signs Shall Follow them that believe; In My Name
Shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
Shall Not hurt them; they Shall lay hands on the sick, and they Shall recover.

Is That Because of Christ's/Twelve apostle's actions in the
[FULL] gospel of the kingdom?:​

Where there was obedience [these shall he do] and
EVERYONE was healed (Luke 4:40 cp Acts 5:16)?:

Mat 10:1 And when He had called unto Him His twelve disciples,
He gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to
heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [these shall he do]

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:
freely ye have received, freely give. [these shall he do]

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and
to heal the sick. = [these shall he do]

Luk 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat
such things as are set before you:
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick [these shall he do] that are therein, and say
unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and
scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall
by any means hurt you."

So, why is it that continuationist groups who purposely "handle
snakes and drink poisons" are having real problems with this?
Sounds plain and clear to me above, yet they do not "have the
signs following them." Are they then UNbelievers?

So, instead of just "talking about it," WHEN are the continuationists
going to get BUSY, and do ALL of the above, as Commanded By Christ.
WHEN will the rest of us SEE the proof of the results of your doctrine?

The TWELVE had no problems with [these shall he do], in Mark 16:20,
and in the book of Acts (1:8; 2:43; 3:11; 4:33; 5:12-16)

You DO wish that we would STOP our UNbelief and "would
BELIEVE your doctrine, which you say is Correct" for today, Correct?

Or, are continuationists Confused believers "trying" to obey what is
not for Today, From God, Under His Gospel Of GRACE, and having all
sorts of problems with "the [these shall he do] DOING"?
-------------------------------
How about the following? Do you Also believe It, From God's Word Of Truth?:

"Study to shew thyself Approved Unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

For example:

God's Context of prophecy/law, gospel of the kingdom, Christ, on earth to
the Twelve, with the aforementioned Scriptures, Israel in prominence

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Other Context of:

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
{Current, Today!} for The Body Of CHRIST! (Romans - Philemon)

CHRIST, And ONE “apostle To the Gentiles, our Pattern to follow!”
(Romans 11:13; 1 Timothy 1:16 KJB!)

Why would Paul, supposedly "under the SAME commission of the 12,"
believe God, and "pray THREE times" for his infirmity, and Then NOT
"be healed"? Was he Then an UNbeliever, because "the healing SIGN"
of "the Previous dispensation" was no longer "following him"?

.
I know of two medically documented cases in my church that the Doctors said they have no explanation for. One was a cancer tumor that dissappeared after prayer the day before surgery was scheduled. The Doctors wrote that they did not misdiagnose as they have the xrays and the biopsy still as evidence. The other a man was dead for 45 minutes with machines recording everything to prove it. The pastor prayed for him and he came back to life. In both cases the Doctors said they or the hospital did not make a mistake.

But people will still not believe. And if I have these two documented cases in my little circle how many more exists out there in the hundreds of thousands of churches where people still believe in praying for the sick? I am sure that there are millions of cases world wide that we could produce medical documentation that something unexplained happened after someone prayed for someone. But people will still say that it does not happen today because they are not hearing about these cases. But those who pray for people hear about them all the time.

So be careful that you do not make your assessment of what is going on in the world based on your limited world experiences.

If you keep reading the bible and get familiar with every verse you will learn that Jesus sent 70 out after the 12 and they healed the sick also. And all 120 spoke in tongues on Pentecost. That God's plan was to empower his church of believers to preach the Gospel and to walk in the steps of Jesus fulfilling this mission below is still Gods plan:

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me,

because he has anointed me

to preach good news to the poor.

He has sent me

to proclaim release to the captives

and recovery of sight to the blind,

to set free the oppressed,

Jesus said as the Father has sent me so send I you...

John 20:21
21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you.” 22After saying this, he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit...

The mission of advancing the Kingdom of God and taking authority over the kingdom of satan is still active.

Some believe in doing this in words only but I believe in using both words and praying for the sick and casting out devils and all of the other Spirit empowered ministry we read about in the book of Acts.

You can believe it was only for the 12 if you want but you have only to read the bible to realize that you have to at least include the 70 and then as you read Acts you have to include Philipp and Stephen, and various others and the list gets longer and longer until it is obvious that Jesus meant what he said, These signs shall follow them that believe. The reason for Stephen and Philipp says because they were filled with the Holy Ghost and faith. That is the key.

So since these signs are following believers in my church I dismiss the claim that they are not happening today.
And I reject any suggestion that they have to be 100% successful every time one prays to be legit either. That is just something people make up as an argument but that dog won't hunt.

Quit putting all these requirements on it like "it has to be done like this, this way, and this many times and etc, etc, " Who are we to tell God when and how to manifest a miracle. We just pray and believe and keep going forward.
 
Jun 12, 2021
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#39
Many years ago, in the 90s, my wife had a workout partner who got breast cancer. It was stage 4 and she had the Chemo. lost the hair, and everything looked bleak. She was Catholic. She knew that we were Assemblies of God and she did not know much about it but she knew we believed in praying for the sick and that miracles can still happen like what she read in the bible.

She invited all her friends over to her house to pray for her one evening. She asked me to lead it. Which makes sense because her friends were a mixed bag and I would say none of them really believed she was going to be miraculously healed that night. They wanted to offer those, "We have to accept the will of God" type prayers of doubt and unbelief.

I was able to figure that out by giving a time of teaching through the scriptures on healing. As I read scripture after scripture you could see faith rising in her and her husbands eyes but disgust in some of the others. But this changed after more and more scriptures were read in context.

By the time I laid out the many scriptures that promised healing by the atonement there were many who were eager to believe. Some were still wanting to put their "but not everyone gets healed 2 cents in" so I had to do what Jesus and Peter did.

I boldly looked at everyone in the room and I slowly told them. "If anyone here does not believe that Sarah is going to be healed of cancer tonight by divine miracle of God in the Name of Jesus I would ask you to please leave the room before we pray. I want only those who believe it is actually going to happen to stay and pray in agreement for her to be healed TONIGHT. Not some day, not after she is dead, TONIGHT!"

Some were smiling with faith, some were smiling with a smirk, some would not make eye contact. But no one left.

We prayed for her a simple faith filled prayer that she was healed tonight by the stripes Jesus bore on the cross and my prayer was full of scripture to instill faith.

Then soon after that I left because I told her I don't want to get into any discussions with some "theologian wannabe" who wants to argue about it and speak doubt. She was so grateful and her eyes were full of joy. You could tell something had happened.

The next week she called my wife and told her that she was in remission. That is what the Doctors say when you get healed from stage 4 cancer over night when praying Pentecostals teach you the scriptures and you put faith in them and in what Jesus promised. They call that remission. LOL. Hallelujah! I'll take it.

She was so thankful that I did it the way I did it. We all learned something that night.

I share it with you because I believe that sometimes people don't get healed because they have been talked out of believing for it.

And I don't care if people get angry with me for saying it. It says so in the bible. We don't need to be worried about false outrage from those who want to make it a point of contention. There are plenty of verses that emphasized the importance of faith about healing.

I would not tell someone, that you are not healed because you don't believe. That will never be my place. I don't think like that about anyone. I don't know the heart.

My point is that faith is critical and we know that from reading all the scriptures about it. So therefore we should take the time to build up someone's faith with scripture promises until we perceive that they have faith to be healed, and then pray for them.

Many just pray for people with no discussion at all and many people they pray for have no expectation of healing, they aren't even asking for it, instead they are asking that God comfort them and help them endure it. That is what they get.

So we have to take the time to teach scriptures to instill faith for a miracle before we pray for one. Then we will see these things happening today.

I do it. I do see signs. I do see miracles. I do have medical proof. I won't argue about it with people who don't believe. We don't have time for all that. A Storm is Coming and we need to fulfill the mission of "release" from the bondages of satan that Jesus sent us on. Not many will get up off their couches and from in front of their TVs and Go. But those who do see the same signs today when they preach the full Gospel.

I agree that many so called "Pentecostals" are just talk. They say they believe these things but they don't really Go forth and do them. There will only be a remnant that actually live what Jesus preached. He came to call those who would go all the way. They are always the few.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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#40
I do see miracles. I do have medical proof.
No one is denying that God performs miracles of healing daily. However we are talking about MIRACLE WORKERS in all the churches of the world performing miracles daily -- apart from prayer. Just as Peter and John caused that lame man outside the temple to be instantly walking and leaping and praising God -- "just like that".