Contradiction?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
The death, burial and resurrection, being the Gospel? Jesus spoke of this, note Matthew 17:22.

As to the OP and Dispy theology, Jews are saved via the same Gospel, and are added to the church at salvation just as Gentiles as per Acts. There are not "2 programs" there are not "2 Gospels." Ephesians 2:11ff show we are all one in the same in Christ. The church is not plan B because the Jews rejected Christ. This ideology does much harm to the character and attributes of God.
I am shocked P4T! You allowed your pride to arrogantly override your fingers on this post! o_O

I'd post verses that Paul was teaching in Romans 11:7 TO eoc, but, as I was searching which ones to post? I noticed the rest of the chapter dealt specifically concerning Israel's UNBELIEF, and, how the gentiles should NOT be boasting (about being "Plan B!").

For Paul was teaching in verse 21? "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

Hebrews 3
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

There is NO SHAME, save for one's ego, or pride (HEART), in being PLAN B!
We ALL should be doing our dangdest, in the FULFILLING OF God's "Mercy to ALL", via Jesus of Nazareth, in SHORTENING the "time" til the fulness of the gentiles be come!

Time to do a "heart check!" Cuz, as far as I know? This verse still HOLDS plenty of water!
Genesis 6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." :unsure:
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Jesus spoke of the tenets of the Gospel to the disciples, yet their eyes were not opened yet to what he said. Jews apparently and mistakingly thought messiah was to offer them political salvation thinking they already possessed spiritual salvation. Some still think he would have set up this political kingdom if they accepted him. Nope. Scripture had to be fulfilled and the church is not a parentheses in God's "program" as some such as Clarence Larkin have asserted.
They were expecting another David to come and lead them to greatness and take them out of Rome’s clutches and make them prominent like they once was. They were expecting a conquering king riding in on a white stead, not a meek Man riding on a donkey.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
I don't disagree with what you say here. And I don't believe there were EVER 2 plans. And to reiterate, NOT A SINGLE human being is going to be saved outside the atoning shed Blood of Jesus, That's THE ONLY PLAN.

But it still doesn't change the fact that Jesus didn't profess that Gospel outside of His Disciples and Nicodemus to the Jewish multitudes or leadership. He DID present Himself as their Messiah and King, and the plan WAS that they were going to reject Him.

I didn't mean to sort of single you out. Similar to what you said, my post was more in general to scorn even discussing an issue without love and Grace. Sorry
No problem. I don't however believe that he was presenting himself as messiah and king in the way many think as if there were some possibility that at that time he would reign as some preach. I believe that to be the huge mistake if Dispensationalism, something I was taught in the bad bad "PREACHERS SCHOOL!" ;)
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
I am shocked P4T! You allowed your pride to arrogantly override your fingers on this post!
Oh, not more personal insults??!! Lol!!! Dude, just stop the above nonsense, you have no basis for your unfounded drivel.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
They were expecting another David to come and lead them to greatness and take them out of Rome’s clutches and make them prominent like they once was. They were expecting a conquering king riding in on a white stead, not a meek Man riding on a donkey.
Agreed, and anything a Jew thought should have happened must be the truth!! ;)
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
Well the divine commission to spread the good news (gospel) in Matthew 28 and in Mark 16 is an example to carry out that which was already laid out and originated by Christ. The teaching includes gospel presentation across the world, the book of Acts records such mission minded disciples to bring good tidings to every creature that Jesus alone saves...he was dead, buried and resurrected! Paul indeed call his "my gospel" Christ gospel which was written by Mark rightfully belongs to Christ as Paul testify.

Romasn 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 Corinthians 2:12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord
Thank you Fredo, I read through the scripture and hope you do the same from this perspective as to try the spirit against what we have learned....

In Romans 1:16, Paul is speaking in “time passed” all the way up, in the midst of Romans 4(I hope you see this) where he begins to speak on the same revelation “a door was opened” in 2 Corinthians 2:12, on the “way” to Troas....The revelation of the mystery was spoken to peter, by Paul, because it was revealed unto Paul by Jesus (personally) but was decided that Paul, was to go the way of the uncircumcised, and all the others to the circumcised. Barnabas was involved also to preach the message that Paul was given, but this was later I believe


In closing, Paul is saying he is not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, as he begins to speak that gospel in “time passed” up until Romans 4 until you start seeing “therefore and now”

2 Corinthians 2:12 he speaks of revelation unto him....a changed message, on the way to troas “a door opened”.........all “time passed” with Paul, he does refer to it as Christ’s gospel, as he reveals his message, revealed and trusted unto him “by Jesus”
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
They were expecting another David to come and lead them to greatness and take them out of Rome’s clutches and make them prominent like they once was. They were expecting a conquering king riding in on a white stead, not a meek Man riding on a donkey.
Yes. This was exposed as erroneous thinking here: Matthew 23:37. Many see this as an offer of eternal salvation and it being rejected. That is not what was going in, Jerusalem would be sacked by the Romans. This was how God judged Israel over and again.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
Can we please stop the personal insults here? OK, hate me, I don't care, but nayborbear, ForestGreenCook, righlydivided, crossnote all need to end the personal assaults. Nowhere have I used the name calling or even the lies (as ForestGreenCook) had. You can hate me personally, don't care, just please end the public name calling. Youou may not like the fact I go against your teachings, but insulting by name calling and bearing false witness as a response is uncalled for. The uptight attitude in this thread is ridiculous.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Oh, not more personal insults??!! Lol!!! Dude, just stop the above nonsense, you have no basis for your unfounded drivel.

OH! I get where yer coming from now P4T!
If God didn't want His children fleeced?
He WOULDN'T have made 'em Sheep, eh? :mad:


If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance?
BAFFLE 'em with B.S.!


I'll pray for ya P4T! :)
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Yes. This was exposed as erroneous thinking here: Matthew 23:37. Many see this as an offer of eternal salvation and it being rejected. That is not what was going in, Jerusalem would be sacked by the Romans. This was how God judged Israel over and again.
Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”(John 18:37)

Jesus never denied He was King, however, His plan was not to establish His kingdom here...yet. His plan was to die upon His cross, the cross His Father gave Him.

We are in the kingdom, but not yet. It was inaugurated at His first advent, to be consummated at His second.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Can we please stop the personal insults here? OK, hate me, I don't care, but nayborbear, ForestGreenCook, righlydivided, crossnote all need to end the personal assaults. Nowhere have I used the name calling or even the lies (as ForestGreenCook) had. You can hate me personally, don't care, just please end the public name calling. Youou may not like the fact I go against your teachings, but insulting by name calling and bearing false witness as a response is uncalled for. The uptight attitude in this thread is ridiculous.

Spirit of antichrist don't like being exposed! Nothing personal! Sad you are seeing it that way!
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
We're having a discussion here. As I said, i haven't given this much thought. But it is interesting to see reactions of different people when long held, but possibly not accurate, beliefs are called into question.

Why would you note Matthew 17:22? Why ignore that I went out of my way to say that Jesus DID preach His death, burial and resurrection to His Disciples? Just NOT the Jewish Nation, or leadership.

Of course there isn't 2 Gospels unto Salvation! Stop with insinuating I am saying otherwise. NO ONE is getting Saved without the Blood of Christ. Jesus HAD to die. That's not what is in discussion.

Jesus presented Himself as the Mashiach Nagid, the Messiah the King. The "Good News" that the Kingdom was at hand and present with them! The same news that John the Baptist spread. Had the Jews NOT rejected Him John the Baptist would have been Elijah, and THAT would have been the end of the age.

Of course we KNOW they HAD to reject Him. But Jesus still had to give them opportunity to do it.

So I ask again, when did Jesus preach to the multitudes, the Nation at large, and the Jewish leadership THE Gospel unto Salvation?

I am interested in this answer as well, it is layed out better than what I have seen, including myself
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,074
2,910
113
Nor will it...ever.....there is one means of salvation, all others are fraudulent and lead to hell!

Both O.T. saints were saved by grace through faith looking forward to the blood sacrifice and the N.T. saints look back by grace through faith to the blood sacrifice.....no such thing as different gospels for different people...!
I've tried to make sense of this in my head and have not been able to fully see, I don't think, from the view of the people in the OT.

They didn't look forward to the blood sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. They couldn't have. They did trust that God would save them by His Grace and Mercy but they had no idea, and therefore no belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Although you kind of have to wonder when Abraham said "God will provide Himself with a sacrifice".

How much did Abraham know and did he mean a ram or a bull or something or did he mean the Lord Jesus Christ or someone similar???

Further teaching or expounding of Abrahams prophetic words don't seem to be repeated further in the Old Testament.

Are they and I just missed them?
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Yes. This was exposed as erroneous thinking here: Matthew 23:37. Many see this as an offer of eternal salvation and it being rejected. That is not what was going in, Jerusalem would be sacked by the Romans. This was how God judged Israel over and again.
WHY did God "judge them over and again?"

The very SAME REASON Jesus could not perform miracles in His own hometown!

BECAUSE OF THEIR "UNBELIEF!"
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,948
3,357
113
I don't have anything to apologize for....if that is your point to me.
You told me, 'if the shoe fits, wear it'. Apparently the shoe didn't fit, because it wasn't true as RD apologized. That was my point...the shoe didn't fit, nor did your little shoe ditty. lol
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
^I got no disagreement with that. Especially jew/gentile being one BODY of Christ.

If its from brother Dan, I dont disagree usually. You put things in such an eloquent and friendly way that its a blessing to read. We should all takes notes from you on that.

But do you know there are some that teach there are TWO entities? instead of the ONE body? That I would disagree with, would you?
I know that I would disagree
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,517
6,849
113
I've tried to make sense of this in my head and have not been able to fully see, I don't think, from the view of the people in the OT.

They didn't look forward to the blood sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. They couldn't have. They did trust that God would save them by His Grace and Mercy but they had no idea, and therefore no belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Although you kind of have to wonder when Abraham said "God will provide Himself with a sacrifice".

How much did Abraham know and did he mean a ram or a bull or something or did he mean the Lord Jesus Christ or someone similar???

Further teaching or expounding of Abrahams prophetic words don't seem to be repeated further in the Old Testament.

Are they and I just missed them?
I think this is just ONE in a LONG list dealing with the Messiah from OT saints.

Job 19:25 New International Version (NIV)
25 I know that my redeemer[a] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[b]
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
You told me, 'if the shoe fits, wear it'. Apparently the shoe didn't fit, because it wasn't true as RD apologized. That was my point...the shoe didn't fit, nor did your little shoe ditty. lol
Lol Cross, I apologized for getting upset, not disagreeing!