Covenant of Hebrews 8

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Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#1
HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Do you think this covenant is in the future. Has it already arrived?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,759
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#2
If you know what the Israel of God is, and if you know what jew truly is, then you already know the answer.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#3
HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Do you think this covenant is in the future. Has it already arrived?
Millennial reign of Christ, physical people of Israel, not the Church. No replacement theology here. God makes covenants with His physical people Israel. The Church has a new testament through Jesus Christ. Testament and covenant are not the same.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#4
Hebrews 7:22 [blb] -

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect indicative active] the guarantee [or, surety] of a better covenant."
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#5
Speaking of that which [member] John146 was mentioning, here is a brief quote by William Kelly:

[quoting]

"This brings us, according to the usual arrangement, to our Epistle, and to this the first mention of the word, where "covenant" has been shown to be right. In Hebrews 8:6; Heb 8:8-9 (twice), and 10 it is unmistakably and uniformly "covenant"; for what has a "mediator" to do with a testament? Other proofs are so obvious as to need no further pointing out. So in Hebrews 9:4 the ark was of the "covenant," with which a will or testament had no congruity and with the "tables" too in the same verse. It has been remarked also that "a mediator" goes with "a covenant," not a testament (verse 15), and the bearing of the "first covenant" is determined by O.T. reference. "Testament" it cannot be. But the inspiring Spirit, in the parenthesis of verses 16, 17, avails Himself of the signification so familiar to all who spoke or read Greek, in order to impress the place that death has for introducing and giving effect to the blessing of the Christian. A covenant does not imply in any case the death of the covenanter to give it validity; a testament invariably supposes the testator's death to bring it into operation. All learning or argument to set aside "testament" and "testator" here is but beating the air. Equally vain is it to establish "testament" in verse 15, or in 18 and 20, where "covenant" alone suits and alone warranted by the O.T. God enjoined a covenant, not a testament, and that by blood. The same proof applies no less stringently to Hebrews 10:16-29, Hebrews 12:24, and Hebrews 13:20, as also to Revelation 11:19.

"Now these are all the occurrences in the N.T.; and the sum is that "testament" is out of place everywhere save in Hebrews 9:16-17, where alone special contextual bearing gives occasion to that sense; whereas the universal O.T. force prevails in every other. The question is here gone into fully, that no reader may allow the unbelieving notion of the least uncertainty hanging over the usage."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Hebrews 7

[end quoting]
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#7
How can the Church have a new testament if they never had an old?
Good point. It was set up originally for Israel. They rejected it and it was given to the Gentiles. I wouldn’t necessarily call it new, just simply the testament of Christ.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,863
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#8
it has arrived dear friend, if not, we are dead in the water. the new covenant was made with israel and judah. remember all the apostles were jews as were the 3000 on pentecost, they were the first to partake of the new covenant. gentiles who join by faith are part of the same covenant. read the chapter 2 of ephesians it explains it. no more jew and gentile but united in Christ in the new covenant. the veil was torn.

Jesus said this is my blood which is the blood of the new covenant shed for the sins of many.

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#9
it has arrived dear friend, if not, we are dead in the water. the new covenant was made with israel and judah. remember all the apostles were jews as were the 3000 on pentecost, they were the first to partake of the new covenant. gentiles who join by faith are part of the same covenant. read the chapter 2 of ephesians it explains it. no more jew and gentile but united in Christ in the new covenant. the veil was torn.

Jesus said this is my blood which is the blood of the new covenant shed for the sins of many.

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Jesus also said....

MATT.15 [22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.[24] But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

Jesus also said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#10
I agree with you about Eph.2. Most of the church does not agree. They dont believe we WERE once strangers from the covenants. BUT NOW!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#11
William Kelly on Ephesians 3 -

[quoting]

"In this further statement the Apostle Paul says, "By revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in a few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.)" He had touched upon it in Ephesians 2, but now he is entering upon it more fully. "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men." Here you have a positive statement that the secret was a something not revealed in other ages - not that it was obscurely intimated or badly understood, but it was not revealed at all. It was a secret kept hid, as the apostle lets us know in Romans 16. "Now to him that is of power to stablish you . . . . . according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest." It was only now divulged. It was not that the thing had been predicted by the prophets, and only now laid hold of by faith. In truth it was now made manifest, now published and taught; it never had been before. "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." There is no doubt that the "scriptures of the prophets," alluded to here, are New Testament scriptures. It is, properly speaking, "by prophetic scriptures," not referring to Old Testament prophets at all; and for this reason - "Now is made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures . . . . . made known to all nations." Had the meaning been Old Testament prophets, what could have been more extraordinary than such an expression? He might have said, It was revealed to the prophets, but now it is understood. But he says, It is now made manifest. "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." There were inspired men, not apostles, who were prophets. To both of these it was now revealed; but we cannot say that "prophetic scriptures" in Romans 16 extend beyond the writings of Paul, which develop this blessed secret of God. The unfolding of the Church ensued when the Holy Ghost was given after a new manner. "The Holy Ghost was not yet (given) because that Jesus was not yet glorified." The Holy Ghost had wrought before, but He was to be poured out personally; and this is identified with the calling of the Church. At Pentecost, for the first time, we have an assembly that is called the Church of God. "The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." There we find what is called the Church, or the assembly: a body where God intended to have Jew and Gentile without distinction; which state of things never existed before the day of Pentecost. And now we have Jews and Gentiles brought into this new order, new to both of them, to which the former revelations of God no longer applied as a direct description of their privileges.

"And here let me warn you to beware of so taking the Scriptures as if everything God says there is about you and me and the Church. The Church is, comparatively, a new thing in the earth; it is exclusively a New Testament subject. If I said that saints were thus new, it were false; but if you say that the Church embraces Old Testament saints, you neglect and oppose the word of God, which confines the Church of God to that which began with Christ set at the right hand of God, and the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven to baptize all who now believe into this one body. What is meant by "the church?" The assembly of souls gathered by the knowledge of Christ dead and risen, and by the Holy Ghost united to Christ, as the glorified man at God's right hand. Such a state of things did not exist before Pentecost. There was no redemption accomplished before the cross. Christ stands alone as Son of God from all eternity - a divine person equal with the Father. But He became man in order to die for men upon the cross; and risen from the dead, He enters upon His new place of headship to the Church [Ephesians 1:20-23], His body; the Bridegroom of the Bride. Atonement has been made and sin put away by the sacrifice of Himself; and there could be no such thing as becoming a member of the body of Christ till this was accomplished. The Church is founded upon the remission of sins by the blood of Christ already shed, and consists of those that are united with Christ to share all His glory, save that which is essentially and eternally His own as only-begotten Son of the Father.

"Then comes in this especial part of the mystery - "That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel." The promises of God to Abraham, and this promise of God in Christ, are two things not only different but contrasted. For if I look at the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12, "I will make of thee a great nation," is this the Church's expectation? When Christians become great in the earth, it is when they have slipped out of their proper blessing in fellowship with Christ; but when Israel is made a great nation in the true sense of the word, they will be blessed and a blessing as they never were before. The promise was given to Abraham, and will be accomplished in his seed on earth by and by. "I will make of thee a great nation . . . . . and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Here you have room left for the going out of blessing to the Gentiles; but, mark, they are to be blessed in Abraham, and afterwards in his seed. In Genesis 22, the promise is renewed to Isaac; and this is what is referred to in Hebrews. "By myself I have sworn, saith the Lord. . . . . . That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies." Is this what we are looking for? I trow not. We want to be in heaven with Christ, and we shall be there through His love and the favour of our God. But Israel is to possess the gate of his enemies, and to be exalted above all people of the earth."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Ephesians 3 [source: Bible Hub]

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/ephesians/3.htm

[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed insert mine]
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#12
Whose Bill Kelly?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#13
Whose Bill Kelly?
William Kelly lived from 1820 to 1906.

In his time, he wrote "lectures on the Pentateuch, the Gospel of Matthew, the Revelation of John, the Church of God, and the New Testament Doctrine of the Holy Spirit, besides Notes on Romans, etc., [...]. Since 1890 he has put forth "In the Beginning" (Gen. 1, 2), [...]; and Exposition of the Prophecies of Isaiah, of the Gospel of John, of the Epistle to the Hebrews, of the Epistles of John; a volume of 600 pages on "God's Inspiration of the Scriptures;" and his last words on "Christ's Coming Again"...

[his commentaries can be found at Bible Hub]

"An aged clergyman, who had long resorted to him for counsel, on hearing of his decease, wrote: 'He was pre-eminently 'a faithful man, and feared God above many' (Neh. 7:2).' "
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#14
HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Do you think this covenant is in the future. Has it already arrived?
Its actually arrived its just waiting for the fullness of the gentiles to come in. hebrews is talking to Hebrews right. Many Hebrews are yet to believe, it can be a bit slow for them to come round. But it will happen.

But thing is...look at verse 10, he makes it with the House of Israel, and doesnt mention the house of Judah. Why because Jesus was himself from the house of Judah. He was born in Judea, he was a jew.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#15
For those interested...

... William Kelly's commentary (excerpt) regarding Ephesians 2 -

[quoting an excerpt]

"Here [v.11 on] opens a very distinct section of the epistle. It is not God's thoughts of grace unfolded, reaching forth from before the world's foundation unto the inheritance of glory, when all things shall be subjected to Christ, the Church being one with Him in His supremacy over them all. Neither again is it the means whereby God takes up souls that were dead under the power of Satan and by nature children of wrath, one as much as another, quickening them with Christ, raising them up and making them sit together in Him in heavenly places. We have had this in the earlier part of chapter 2. But now we have the present working of the plans of God in the world. Ephesians 1 gave us the counsels of God about them; Ephesians 2:1-10, the way in which He wrought in them; but now we have the manner of His plans upon the earth. Accordingly, this brings into very distinct relief the condition in which man had been before. There had been already dealings of God here below. After the flood, when the whole world had departed from God, and set up a new form of peculiarly malignant evil - the worship of false gods, the true God called out one man into a place of separation from all others, and made him to be the depository of His promises and testimony upon the earth. This was Abraham, and Abraham's seed. Accordingly there it was that from the call of Abraham we find the scene of the workings of God's power, goodness, and government, though government was afterwards severed, because of Israel's hopeless evil, and handed over to the Gentiles. But the cross of Christ terminated these trials. God might linger for many years after, as we know, in forbearance, but the fate of the Jewish nation was sealed in the cross of Christ; and from that very moment God began to bring out these much deeper purposes of His love. For the Jewish people, at the very best even, had they been converted and received the Messiah, could never have been more here below than an earthly people. They might have been regenerate, but they must have been earthly. The promises that were so fully and richly accorded them in the Old Testament had to do with the earth. I do not say that faith had nothing deeper, or that there was not in the hidden mind of God something outside this present scene. But, let me say again, they were an earthly people; they had the "earthly things" of the kingdom by the distinct gift of God; and it is in reference to this very circumstance, that God declares that His gifts and calling are without repentance. He had given earthly blessings to the Jews, and He had called them out for the purpose of enjoying the land. It will be in a condition of glory under their Messiah. He will never repent of His purpose, nor withdraw His gift. But meanwhile the whole history of Israel's rejection of God has come in; their worshipping of idols, and finally the crucifixion of their own Messiah; and for the time being they are dispossessed of their land, and scattered over the face of the earth.

"But during the time of the dispersion of Israel, and even before it began, from the moment that their guilt was consummated, this heavenly purpose of God was gradually manifested upon the earth. But we must remember that the Church, besides being the object of God's eternal counsels, and having a glorious portion in heaven along with Christ, for which we are waiting, has also an existence upon earth, and enters into the dealings of God here below. This is the point at which we are arrived in this epistle. We have had the deeper thoughts of God; but as the epistle does touch upon the ways of God on the earth, we should not have had a full view of the Church's place if it did not give us the dispensational succession here below. Accordingly we have the elements which compose the Church: "Wherefore remember that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands." Here we are on totally different ground. It is no longer "children of wrath," persons that were by nature one as bad and dead as the other; but here men are distinguished on earth - the uncircumcision on the one hand, and the circumcision on the other. So that you are on earthly ground, the ground of dispensational dealings, where you have God separating one part of mankind from another by His own will; not because the one was better than the other, but for the display of His own wisdom and purpose. The great mass of the Jews were just as evil in the sight of God as the Gentiles; and some of the Gentiles were converted, such as Job, while there were many of the Jews that perished in their sins. But for all that, God did put a difference between Jew and Gentile; and He says, "Remember that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh." You were among the rest of mankind, left out of the call of God; you were not brought into a place of separate witness for God as Abraham was; you are called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision. "At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel." They had no part in the polity of God set up in Israel; and they were "strangers from the covenants of promise." God gave glorious promises in the form of a covenant, and bound Himself to accomplish them. The Gentiles had no part nor lot in them. There were promises about Gentiles, but none to them. Israel were the direct parties concerned in the promises - they, and they only. And we must carefully remember what these promises meant. They were not made to Abel or Enoch, much less to Adam and Eve, though it is common to speak of the promise made in the garden of Eden. But Scripture never talks of promise there. And if you examine Genesis 3, you will find the wisdom of God in this; for it could be in no sense a promise. To whom could it be a promise? To whom was it uttered? To that old serpent. No believer could imagine a promise to him. It was a threat of the extinction of his power. God was judging the sin which had just entered the world: is this the suited time when promises are made? It is strictly a revelation of God, not in the form of a promise at all, but a declaration which comes out in denouncing judgment upon the serpent, and which showed that the Seed of the woman was to bruise his head.

" "The promises," then, do not go up higher than Abraham: they are connected with the dispensations of God. It may be asked; Have we not promises? I answer, We have all the promises of God; but how and where? They are yea and amen in Christ Jesus. If we have Christ, we are Abraham's seed, and inheritors of the promises, though in a way totally differing from that in which the Jews had them of old or will have them by and by. We come in on the ground of pure mercy, and as altogether outside covenant. There is no such thing as a covenant with the Church, or with us Gentiles. I do not mean that we receive not the blessings that are in the new covenant: we have all that is blessed in it, and better too; but not as Israel. They come under them as subjects of the promises of God; whereas we are sought, and reached, and blessed by sovereign grace - having a title to nothing, and yet some better thing provided for us. We come in as filling up the gap between the rejection of the Messiah and His reception by Israel by and by; and we form part of this parenthesis, rather than of the dealings of God here below, in a very interesting manner, as I hope to show."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Ephesians 2

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/ephesians/2.htm

[end quoting]

____________


This is the thing I'm always pointing out about the distinction between Matthew 22:7 (the 70ad events: see Lk21:23,20, etc [in the vv.12-24a section of the Olivet Discourse, regarding the 70ad events]; and that of Matthew 22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" ("THEN SAITH HE" was necessarily AFTER the 70ad events [well after He was IN HEAVEN ;) ], and that is what we see written out in the LATER 95ad Rev1:1[7:3]/4:1/1:19c "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" FUTURE events, the specific limited time period LEADING UP TO His promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, per Rev19 [end of trib])
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#16
JEREMIAH 31 [31] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] AND THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Jer.31 and Heb.8 are speaking of the same exact covenant. Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Jer.31 and Hebrews 8 already arrived?

HEBREWS 8

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Every time i say we {gentiles} are to keep the 10 commandments, i hear that covenant wasnt given to the gentiles! It was given to Isreal only!

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Not that only! Hebrews 8 [8] says Behold the days come when He will make a new covenant. Didnt come yet. Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason. To hide the truth

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts?

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

After the gathering {in the twinkling of an eye} to the kingdom rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yup
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#17
I recommend Dr. Michael Heiser's "Naked Bible Podcast" on Hebrews 8. It's available on YouTube.
 

azamzimtoti

Well-known member
Apr 3, 2019
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#19
Of course the NT is in effect.

"Fullness of the Gentiles" is not a physical number/quantity, rather it relates to Paul's ministry to the Gentiles. The "fullness" was completed during his ministry (which was proclaimed ) to the Gentiles as he stated in Colossians 1:23.

G4138 pleroma play'-ro-mah

from G4137;

repletion or completion.

KJV - fullness

(Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.)

(Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.)
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
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#20
Its future, Paul prety much says the same thing in Rom 11, When he fortells that Isreal is blinded in part. But there will come a day when he will come, and all Isreal will be saved.