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T
I said above that I still think by God's standard's as he was the only one in creation, He created the earth in fulfilment in the first creation account...He is showing us his view...read the book of Hebrews...the author of that book mentions God's seventh day rest referring to Jesus Christ and those who rest from their works...and that those who wandered in the dessert never entered God's rest...if they were in the dessert 40years they had many sabbaths--but they never believed and so never were allowed to reach the promised land through faith as the letter to the Hebrews writes...
I was not saying each day was a thousand years--and even if I did use that new testament verse I would say it is using a thousand metaphorically to say A day is ever long to God (a day either spent in sin or serving him) but also a thousand years are as nothing to him because He never ages...And applying that to these days, I would suggest they are periods of time...
In the first day, no earth, no sun, just light and darkness--what man would consider that a day by 24 hour standards--you don't even know if God made days shorter or longer back then anyway--meaning it took longer for the sun to set or rise then to the next rise and set...
Days could not have been the same--how long do you think it took Adam to name every animal??? A day? I have seen how fast someone said he would have to had done that and its incredible as you know..unless as I have said God could have postponed the sunset or rise for as long as he wanted days to last... and why could't he? Later on in the Old Testament he haults the Sun and another he makes shadows the Sun causes to go backward..so those days were not exactly 24 hours or 24 60 minutes if you will.
God bless
tony
I was not saying each day was a thousand years--and even if I did use that new testament verse I would say it is using a thousand metaphorically to say A day is ever long to God (a day either spent in sin or serving him) but also a thousand years are as nothing to him because He never ages...And applying that to these days, I would suggest they are periods of time...
In the first day, no earth, no sun, just light and darkness--what man would consider that a day by 24 hour standards--you don't even know if God made days shorter or longer back then anyway--meaning it took longer for the sun to set or rise then to the next rise and set...
Days could not have been the same--how long do you think it took Adam to name every animal??? A day? I have seen how fast someone said he would have to had done that and its incredible as you know..unless as I have said God could have postponed the sunset or rise for as long as he wanted days to last... and why could't he? Later on in the Old Testament he haults the Sun and another he makes shadows the Sun causes to go backward..so those days were not exactly 24 hours or 24 60 minutes if you will.
God bless
tony
Yet there's no indication in the bible that the genealogical records, despite being chronological, can be used to prove beyond doubt, a 6000 year old earth. Here's why:
The young earth creationists at answers in genesis are not closed to the possibility that the chronological records contain gaps, although in true dogmatic fashion they will always interpret the bible according their young-earth position : that the earth is 6000-10000 years old.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/do-the-genesis-genealogies-contain-gaps
The young earth creationists at answers in genesis are not closed to the possibility that the chronological records contain gaps, although in true dogmatic fashion they will always interpret the bible according their young-earth position : that the earth is 6000-10000 years old.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/do-the-genesis-genealogies-contain-gaps
S
Here is a link to an excellent article about the age of the earth that the chronologies in Genesis 5 and 11
http://www.icr.org/article/how-young-earth-applying-simple-math-data-provided/
http://www.icr.org/article/how-young-earth-applying-simple-math-data-provided/
D
I find it a bit perplexing to scrutinize science that is backed up with lots of evidence and tell them they are more wrong before admitting our INTERPRETATION of the bible is wrong.
I see no problem acknowledging that the earth is older than 6000 human years old.
and I feel the fact that the earth is older does not in any way prove the bible to be wrong.
But, that's just me and my opinion.
PLEASE realize that I do not say the bible is wrong. I am just saying that our LIMITED mind in trying to understand GOD's word can be wrong.
I see no problem acknowledging that the earth is older than 6000 human years old.
and I feel the fact that the earth is older does not in any way prove the bible to be wrong.
But, that's just me and my opinion.
PLEASE realize that I do not say the bible is wrong. I am just saying that our LIMITED mind in trying to understand GOD's word can be wrong.
S
God created man. God gave man the capacity to think. God gave us His word. God intended it to be understood. God said what He meant and meant what He said.
A close reading of Romans 1:18ff and Eph. 4:17-18 will reveal that those who deny the existence of God and/or do not obey him are futile and foolish in their understanding. Are we really going to allow atheists to explain the universe to us in a way that contradicts God's Word?
A close reading of Romans 1:18ff and Eph. 4:17-18 will reveal that those who deny the existence of God and/or do not obey him are futile and foolish in their understanding. Are we really going to allow atheists to explain the universe to us in a way that contradicts God's Word?
S
I see exactly what you're saying and again let me just say that I don't think it's necessary to believe in a young earth. I actually don't, but if I found out it was only 6000 years old that wouldn't shock me either. You're right in that the interpretation could be wrong, but the Bible ultimately is not. But I don't find it perplexing to scrutinize science. Why is it perplexing to scrutinize anything? I scrutinize science and what the news and government tells me because these things all come from regular people and mankind is flawed. They make mistakes and sometimes they lie. People frequently have agendas. In the grand scheme of human history science has been wrong and changed it's theories a million times over. There are so many variables in dating the earth that it's not even funny, so why should I not scrutinize what modern scientists say? It hasn't been that long since conventional science diagnosed people on the basis of their head size and shape and used leeches to drain blood from people for every kind of sickness there is.
I read a book a few years back that chronicled ATHEIST scientists who did not believe in Darwin's brand of evolution. Most of them believed that evolution in some sense might be true, but the theories needed revised. These were not men with any agenda other than to use science and reason to seek the truth. But what happened was that they were all ostracized by the scientific community for daring to think and question the dogma of Darwin. A big part of the scientific community holds to some things in an almost religious way in which they go on faith and stick to dogmas and then brand non-believing scientists as heretics.
There was also a case years back of a famous "missing link" that was a fraud. Some scientists came forward and admitted to combining fossilized remains of humans and apes.
So if someone first scrutinizes science and firmly sticks with even just their interpretation of the Bible, I don't think they're being illogical at all. We KNOW the Bible is true. But I agree with you that sometimes everyone could reevaluate the way they interpret things in light of science and research. The Bible is never wrong, but as you said, our interpretations could be!
I read a book a few years back that chronicled ATHEIST scientists who did not believe in Darwin's brand of evolution. Most of them believed that evolution in some sense might be true, but the theories needed revised. These were not men with any agenda other than to use science and reason to seek the truth. But what happened was that they were all ostracized by the scientific community for daring to think and question the dogma of Darwin. A big part of the scientific community holds to some things in an almost religious way in which they go on faith and stick to dogmas and then brand non-believing scientists as heretics.
There was also a case years back of a famous "missing link" that was a fraud. Some scientists came forward and admitted to combining fossilized remains of humans and apes.
So if someone first scrutinizes science and firmly sticks with even just their interpretation of the Bible, I don't think they're being illogical at all. We KNOW the Bible is true. But I agree with you that sometimes everyone could reevaluate the way they interpret things in light of science and research. The Bible is never wrong, but as you said, our interpretations could be!
S
God used the tools of human communication in the form of writing to communicate what he wants us to know. One must grow in his understanding. This takes maturity and time. But His word does not change.
Most of the Bible is understandable without a whole lot of effort. There are clearly some things harder to understand, which is why not many should presume to be teachers within the body. The gospel plan of salvation is simple enough that if one can know it enough to obey he knows enough to share it.
One has to be MIS-taught to not understand the straight forward prose of historical narrative in Genesis and other places.
Most of the Bible is understandable without a whole lot of effort. There are clearly some things harder to understand, which is why not many should presume to be teachers within the body. The gospel plan of salvation is simple enough that if one can know it enough to obey he knows enough to share it.
One has to be MIS-taught to not understand the straight forward prose of historical narrative in Genesis and other places.
T
There are a lot of questions still to be asked...why did the Jews not date their years since the beginning of creation rather than how long they lived? It seems reasonable, knowing that God favored them, that thyey could keep track of years 'from the beginning."
And just a question 'why did God create dinosaur bones?' Since I assume you do not think they ever existed..just a deception? Seems highly unlikely...
There are two creation accounts in the Bible...I think one as I said before (the first account) shows God's perspective and the second how man came into being...the importance of this being that in the first we have not even a mention of man sinning on the sixth day (which I assume you believe he did).
Remember that God the father is outside of time, outside and other than all that He creates...so from his perspective every person and thing is created as a whole--beginning, middle, and end--Jesus says we cannot even add a single moment to our lives, so why worry about food, and clothing? And so when he creates he creates it all beginning, middle and end.
The second account of creation would have to have taken forever if it was a single sun rise and set--which it could have been--but as I said before it would to have been longer than 24 60 minutes ( or Adam experienced life much quicker, which would mean relatively he had longer minutes because he lived more than we can possibly do within each minute)--which no human every counted a day until relatively recently...
Do they add in your church that you have to confess Jesus is Lord and the earth is only "about" 6000 years old to be baptized in your church? Just playing, but even further as a human being even Adam had no time to know how old he was...the earth was 'infinitely older than he was' by the simple fact that it was before he was made...The time before that it was God and the Lord (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit and creation. The ability to put any time other than 'days' to them in unfathomable to a human creature...Yes they were days, but those days have a meaning of their own as they represent change in creation that no man ccould ever experience...
I love Hebrews and I can quote it here, and those who have eyes and minds can understand:
(Here we understand that both 'today' and days mean different things to God, because he is eternal)
Hebrews 3: 13 to 4:11
But exhort each other every day, so long as it is called TODAY, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold to our original confidence to the end. AS it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
Therefore while the promise of entering his rest still stands; let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who believe enter that rest as he has said "As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all his works. And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest." Since therefore it remains fpr some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today" saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted "Today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Here, we see God and Paul trying to show you that God's creation was made in completion...the seventh day refers to the Lord, you have to know that "it didnt just pass away as what we call days do on the seventh day of creation...Today is not even the same (time span)to God...
God bless and I hope this helps somone...
tony
ps..Are you not feared that you are falsifying or wrongly interpreting the word of God and as someone else has said before me, if the world truly is more than 6000 years old, then you are lying? Not the word of God--you just wouldn't be understanding it right.
And just a question 'why did God create dinosaur bones?' Since I assume you do not think they ever existed..just a deception? Seems highly unlikely...
There are two creation accounts in the Bible...I think one as I said before (the first account) shows God's perspective and the second how man came into being...the importance of this being that in the first we have not even a mention of man sinning on the sixth day (which I assume you believe he did).
Remember that God the father is outside of time, outside and other than all that He creates...so from his perspective every person and thing is created as a whole--beginning, middle, and end--Jesus says we cannot even add a single moment to our lives, so why worry about food, and clothing? And so when he creates he creates it all beginning, middle and end.
The second account of creation would have to have taken forever if it was a single sun rise and set--which it could have been--but as I said before it would to have been longer than 24 60 minutes ( or Adam experienced life much quicker, which would mean relatively he had longer minutes because he lived more than we can possibly do within each minute)--which no human every counted a day until relatively recently...
Do they add in your church that you have to confess Jesus is Lord and the earth is only "about" 6000 years old to be baptized in your church? Just playing, but even further as a human being even Adam had no time to know how old he was...the earth was 'infinitely older than he was' by the simple fact that it was before he was made...The time before that it was God and the Lord (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit and creation. The ability to put any time other than 'days' to them in unfathomable to a human creature...Yes they were days, but those days have a meaning of their own as they represent change in creation that no man ccould ever experience...
I love Hebrews and I can quote it here, and those who have eyes and minds can understand:
(Here we understand that both 'today' and days mean different things to God, because he is eternal)
Hebrews 3: 13 to 4:11
But exhort each other every day, so long as it is called TODAY, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold to our original confidence to the end. AS it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
Therefore while the promise of entering his rest still stands; let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who believe enter that rest as he has said "As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all his works. And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest." Since therefore it remains fpr some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today" saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted "Today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Here, we see God and Paul trying to show you that God's creation was made in completion...the seventh day refers to the Lord, you have to know that "it didnt just pass away as what we call days do on the seventh day of creation...Today is not even the same (time span)to God...
God bless and I hope this helps somone...
tony
ps..Are you not feared that you are falsifying or wrongly interpreting the word of God and as someone else has said before me, if the world truly is more than 6000 years old, then you are lying? Not the word of God--you just wouldn't be understanding it right.
Re: dinosaurs. It's possible that dinosaurs and humans lived together , see this about Australian aborigines..
http://answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/aborigines.asp
There are many other primitive cultures around the world that also feature dinosaur-like art or stories.
There have been theories that the Chinese dragon for example originated with large lizard-like dinosaurs. It seems to be more than just coincidence that all these tribes and cultures which never communicated with each other have such similar stories and paintings of these creatures.
The problem is that its possible that they were just painting pictures of dinosaur remains that they themselves had found. And the dinosaurs are claimed to be buried too deep in the fossil record to support the idea that they lived with humans.
http://answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/aborigines.asp
There are many other primitive cultures around the world that also feature dinosaur-like art or stories.
There have been theories that the Chinese dragon for example originated with large lizard-like dinosaurs. It seems to be more than just coincidence that all these tribes and cultures which never communicated with each other have such similar stories and paintings of these creatures.
The problem is that its possible that they were just painting pictures of dinosaur remains that they themselves had found. And the dinosaurs are claimed to be buried too deep in the fossil record to support the idea that they lived with humans.
S
Knightjester,
Science is always tentative. Propositional statements of Scripture are absolute. When science accepts and then works off of presuppositions that are antithetical to what God has said, go with the Bible first.
God said he created everything, therefore evolutionary theory is wrong. Scripture points to man's existence on the planet to be less than 10 thousand years, so the theories of man are wrong.
Man and dinosaur must have coexisted prior to the flood of Noah, there is not enough time in days 4, 5, & 6 to be otherwise.
Science is always tentative. Propositional statements of Scripture are absolute. When science accepts and then works off of presuppositions that are antithetical to what God has said, go with the Bible first.
God said he created everything, therefore evolutionary theory is wrong. Scripture points to man's existence on the planet to be less than 10 thousand years, so the theories of man are wrong.
Man and dinosaur must have coexisted prior to the flood of Noah, there is not enough time in days 4, 5, & 6 to be otherwise.
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