Death...The Price of Sin...Paid?

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

I've been dealing with death since August; beset all around me. And an interesting thought came to mind when I awoke from sleep yesterday and I thought it may be an interesting new topic to discuss or debate...but knowing this forum, it probably was already discussed in one form or another, but I'd like to see what folks think about Death.

- Scripture says death is the price to be paid for sinning.

- Scripture says because of Adam's sin all people die.

- Scripture says because we sin we die.

- But scripture also says Christ paid the price, suffering once for all.

Again the price of sin is death...and Christ died for the believer, paying the price. Christ paid the price of sin...which is he died...for one who believes...So why do we believers still die? Did Christ pay the price or not?

Maybe a more provocative question would be: Why do we believe we still must die? If we "walk by faith and not by sight" why do we still believe in what we see when it comes to death?

Scripture says "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

...again, the price of sin is death...and Christ bore those sins...and died. Price paid.

- Scripture says whoever believes in Christ "will not perish/die but have everlasting life".

- Scripture says Christ is the life.

- Scripture says "I have been crucified with Christ on the Cross; that it's not me but Christ who lives in me"

- Scripture says "I was baptized in Christ's death, and as he was resurrected we walk in new life"

- Scripture says "...and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Yet we still believe we all will die even though we say we believe in Christ who is the life who saves us from death, the price of sin...the sin that he bore; we already dying with him on the cross. Or is it a thing where because we continue to sin we continue to die, which would mean Christ didn't pay for *all* of our sins right?

So these are my questions if you please:

1. If the price of sin is death, did Christ pay it for us or not? If so, why do we still die?

2. Or, if we still die because we still sin, then wouldn't that mean Christ didn't pay for *all* sins (past and future) but rather only paid for our past sins up to the point of confession, that it's on us to live righteously and not sin?

3. Or if he really did pay the full price (i.e. for *all* sin), is it simply a matter of our lack of faith that causes us to continue to die? Why don't we believe the price - death - was paid in full or believe we died with Christ (still believing we must ourselves also pay with a live...seems like double jeopardy)? Why do we still believe in the life we constantly see (death), instead of have faith in life we've never seen before (everlasting life) as Hebrews 11 defines faith...if indeed we are saved through faith? Would it even make a difference? Why or why not?

I'm just trying to frame my questions as best as possible, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on this subject (supported by scripture).

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As a qualifier, here's the definition of "death" I follow from scripture:

Adam came from the earth, not heaven. And when he sinned God said Adam would "die" and defined it as "return to the dust of the earth from where he came". Adam was made a living person/soul *not* a (life-giving) spirit, like Christ is. There is a difference between a soul and a spirit. So Adam wasn't a spirit, that means no one born from Adam is a spirit either...only when one is "born again" in Christ (2nd Adam) is one a spirit. "That which is born of flesh is flesh...and that which is born of Spirit is spirit."

This tells me anyone who does not believe in Christ is still not spirit either, they're still a soul from Adam and must continue to go to where Adam went when he died...back to the dust of the earth.

Thanks in advance.

ardchoille · Dec 24, 2014

Are you asking about spiritual death or physical death? The death of our physical bodies is inevitable. Spiritual death, however, is a different matter.

dcontroversal · Dec 24, 2014

I think if death was viewed from the perspective of (separation) that it would alleviate a lot of confusion.......

It is appointed unto men once to die (spirit separated from the body) 1st Death

The second death (separated from God for all eternal ages in the lake of fire)<---not applicable to those who are born again and directed at the LOST

Division in fellowship (division between God and saved based upon unconfessed sin in a believers life) as well as (separation between God and un-regenerated men and based upon lack of salvation)

I have a son by birth...he will always be my son by birth regardless of what happens or doesn't happen

Our fellowship can be broken by failing to do what I tell him to do, yet he remains my son by birth......

Just a few thoughts.......

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

ardchoille said:

I guess I'm asking about what would be labeled as physical death; returning to the dust. Adam returned to the dust.

Here's the thing...Is the death of the physical body truly inevitable for everyone? The reason I ask is because of passages like 1 Corinthians 15:51

Chopper · Dec 24, 2014

It is appointed to man to die once, after this the judgement to life, or to the second death, from which there is no resurrection.

Some shall not taste death at all, for that great day of His return shall take both those of His from sleep and those who are awake! Watch therefore, lest you be caught asleep and He comes upon you as the thief in the night!

You know the signs of the times as they surround you, and even so, the signs of His return speak to those who recognize them.

Chopper · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

That is most likely the truth, in that even at His coming, we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal, and we already know the flesh we are in now cannot inherit the Kingdom of Elohim

dcontroversal · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

No not all will die......Then we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall be CHANGED......!

JesusistheChrist · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

Hi, Yahshua.

Yes, Christ paid the price of death for us and the Bible tells us why we still die. For example, we read:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
[37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[57] But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[58] Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

As Paul stated, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 15:50). We were all initially born "in Adam" (I Corinthians 15:22) and Adam was "of the earth: earthy" (I Corinthians 15:47). Similarly, we, too, are "of the earth, earthy" and such "earthy" and "corruptible" bodies "cannot inherit the kingdom of God". As such, our "earthy" bodies will need to one day be "sown" into the earth that at Christ's second coming we might be raised up with new "spiritual" (I Corinthians 15:46) or "heavenly" (I Corinthians 15:48-49) bodies. Of course, there will be some who will never die in that they will be among those who will yet be alive at Christ's second coming and they will receive their glorified bodies "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."

Anyhow, the short answer to your question is that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" and/or neither can that which is "corruptible inherit incorruption".

Hopefully, this helps to answer your question.

JustAnotherUser · Dec 24, 2014

The death referring to sin is the one after the physical death. If one is an unbeliever til death, they will face it twice. The believer faces physical death and then eternal life, which is why Christ came to die on the cross so we can have that connection with God. Anyone who was not as pure as Christ could never be able to pay the same penalty and go to Heaven.

Christ dying on the cross covers the sins of the believer but doesn't excuse that one can sin in the future and get away with it. Anyone who uses that is abusing such scripture to justify their own actions and it would have you question their faith in general if they claim to be born again. It's a relationship that binds the believer to Christ and it renews them from the life they had before they accepted Him. Any sin that happens in the future can be forgiven if the person is sincere and abides to not have it done again. The forgiveness doesn't stop right when saying you accept Christ, but as a person born again they should have a higher level of understanding of the Grace given to them and has them likely to not commit something that an unsaved and unbeliever would due to their ignorance and unwillingness.

Lack of faith and unrepentant are what makes death occur. The physical death started once sin came into the world and it was given as punishment for life roaming earth to go through it. The second death happens when a person's judged by God and finds them to be cast to hell where the wicked would resign to. Hell is where satan and the demons are supposed to go by the time the second coming occurs, but since man has access to both it is left up to them as to where they will officially go once their first life is done.

So to directly answer your first question, Christ did die so we wouldn't have to face what we justly deserve. Man cannot go sinless and be pure alone ever since sin has been first accessed. It doesn't guarantee that we'll live forever on earth and not many will go peacefully in their sleep. But the comfort of knowing what happens once going through your first death is what it is hoped for (faith).

ardchoille · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

If you read the passages before your quoted verse, you will find that our physical bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so stated in 1 Corinthians 15:50:

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Chopper said:

Appreciate your replies Dcontroversal and Chopper...you both bring up the Second Death.

For those who do not taste even the 1st death but are changed, do you think their 1st death was served by faith when they died with Christ; crucified with him on his cross?

If a death is owed you think this counts for them? I'm leaning towards it as a possibility...

Chopper · Dec 24, 2014

I think it is very possible when we are changed from mortal to immortal, we very well may be like a butterfly if you will, that sheds it's former self and becomes a new creature.

dcontroversal · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

Hmmm interesting concept for sure....never really thought about it like that before.....Enoch walked with God and God took him that he should not see death........???

DiscipleDave · Dec 24, 2014

There is a spirit that is within every living human being. That spirit is immortal, and can't be killed. That spirit was before the Earth was even created. The flesh we have on now is but clothes that houses the spirit that is within us. The spirit in us is here to be tested, our flesh is an instrument for that testing. For the flesh is earthly and it lusts to please and satisfy self. How Spiritual we become is a direct result of neglecting or mortifying the lusts of the flesh. For example someone who wholly gives in to the desires of his flesh, is not spiritual at all. On the other hand one who does not obey the flesh at all is Holy, and Spiritual. For it is only through looking to the spirit can one overcome the flesh and its lusts, its desires.
my point is the flesh is nothing, it is from the Earth and will return to the Earth. Only two have not tasted the death of their own flesh, Enoch and elijah.

Highly recommend if you are interested in why humans exist, or about the spirit within us read these two articles

The Meaning of Life
The Spirit Within Us

^i^

Chopper · Dec 24, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

That is flat out contradiction to what the Word tells us brother.
Remember the second death, ashes and are no more?

Do not fear him who can kill the body, but rather Him who can destroy the body and soul.

Karraster · Dec 24, 2014

Brother, my condolences. Even Messiah wept. I've often pondered that verse..was it His compassion for those who couldn't yet understand, they mourned, He mourned with them? Death itself, that had been introduced to the world by the dragon's lies?

Thanks for the thread. Surely many would like to understand it better in this life, I would. Will get back to it after getting some verses together.

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

I appreciate everyone's reply so far...and I'm glad we're all on the same page. I guess my question is primarily focused on those who change per 1 Corinthians 15.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that those people (who don't sleep but who are changed) never taste death? Or was it something more to it? Paul calls it a "mystery" (i.e. secret).

Aside from that, what about that scripture the Hebrews scripture already referenced ("...as it is appointed for man to die once")? How do they keep their appointment (lol)? I'm reminded of Enoch and Elijah who have yet to die...and then this group who are alive and remain also don't die.

This is what leads me to believe that when Christ spoke of never dying in the gospel of John he meant never physically dying because he paid the death for them.

Chopper · Dec 24, 2014

That may be the workaround on it where the scripture speaks of some that shall not taste death, but then what happens to the body of flesh that is corruptible? See, this is where I get the thought of the butterfly concept.

JesusistheChrist · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

Hi, Yahshua.

I wouldn't be too sure that Enoch and Elijah didn't die if I were you.

In relation to Enoch, we read:

Hebrews chapter 11

[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[11] Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
[12] Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Scripture merely says that "Enoch was TRANSLATED that he should not see death" and this could easily mean that God simply moved him from a place of imminent danger to somewhere else. After all, the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews did go on to say that "these ALL DIED in faith", didn't he?

Regarding Elijah, years after he was caught up to heaven (there are at least three "heavens" in the Bible), King Jehoram received a letter from him:

II Chronicles chapter 21

[12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
[13] But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
[14] Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
[15] And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Unless the Post Office was really slow in those days, it certainly seems that Elijah was yet alive and on the earth after his famous chariot ride.

Finally, please remember what Jesus said during His Incarnation:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

If "NO MAN had ascended up to heaven" up until the time that Jesus uttered those words, then how could either Enoch or Elijah have "ascended up to heaven"?

ForthAngel · Dec 24, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

There is a spirit that is within every living human being. That spirit is immortal, and can't be killed. That spirit was before the Earth was even created. The flesh we have on now is but clothes that houses the spirit that is within us. The spirit in us is here to be tested, our flesh is an instrument for that testing. For the flesh is earthly and it lusts to please and satisfy self. How Spiritual we become is a direct result of neglecting or mortifying the lusts of the flesh. For example someone who wholly gives in to the desires of his flesh, is not spiritual at all. On the other hand one who does not obey the flesh at all is Holy, and Spiritual. For it is only through looking to the spirit can one overcome the flesh and its lusts, its desires.
my point is the flesh is nothing, it is from the Earth and will return to the Earth. Only two have not tasted the death of their own flesh, Enoch and elijah.

Highly recommend if you are interested in why humans exist, or about the spirit within us read these two articles

The Meaning of Life
The Spirit Within Us

^i^

This is a mormon doctrine, is it not?

Death...The Price of Sin...Paid?

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