Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
515
113
#1
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


  • So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
  • Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
  • Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
  • Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.
Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.
  • We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
  • We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
  • The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
  • The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
  • Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
  • In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.
So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)
  • Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
  • And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
  • And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.
  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes
  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
2,311
999
113
#2
Good stuff @Chris1975
I'll add a little where I'm at and growing ..
I whipped my sons when they were young for correction and not too often, they learned quick if dad says ''do it now'' game over, no argument, do it now .. If one went and told the other ''dad said'' game over the same .. So if I run across a meatball I want to forgive them I do, as many times as it takes .. But don't use that to take advantage of someone, same as turn the other cheek, smack me because you were cut by the two edged sword of the Word, even a misunderstanding and I'll turn the other cheek all day long but don't smack me because you think I'm weak , if I'm wrong I can be the one to ask forgiveness and mean it plus make amens and prove it, should it ever go that far ... Because of Jesus and my regard for Him in my life I feel and try to see to it everybody gets as good or better deal than me .. Nobody has anything I want
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,868
650
113
#3
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
The Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, which this is what seals the saints and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Which is why Jesus said not everyone that says Lord Lord will dwell with Him for they did not do the will of the Father, but were workers of iniquity.

Which Paul said awake to righteousness and sin not, but some have not the knowledge of God.

Which the ones that have repented of their sins, and were saved, if they do not continue in the goodness of God they shall be cut off.

Which Jesus said when the resurrection happens the hypocrites will not be caught up to be with Jesus.

Which a hypocrite is a person who claims Christ but does not act like Christ which is to represent goodness which includes to forgive as God forgives.

And there is no excuse for a Spirit led life will not sin for they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affection and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they can handle, and give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

This is people that have repented, having the right perspective on repentance, and their lifestyle to be right with God, and have been saved, that if they do not continue to represent goodness being like Christ led of the Spirit they will be cut off, which if they go back to being like the world and die with sins on their record then they are like a sow that goes back to her wallowing in the mud, and a dog that has returned to his own vomit.

But we are in the flesh and can sin if we desire to sin, and all sin can be forgiven, but those with the Spirit will know that they have to get rid of it to be right with God, which whenever we sin we are not led of the Spirit, and forfeit repentance until we repent and mean it and God knows the heart.

But those without the Spirit will hold unto sin and believe they are still saved, and the Bible says some have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth and it points out their sins.

So these people did not repent with the proper perspective of repenting and kept some worldliness about them enjoying it but believe they are right with God so they will hold unto sin.

But the Bible says if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth there is no more sacrifice for sin, which means the blood of Christ cannot wash away the sin for God will not take away a sin that they hold unto.

The Bible says the hypocrites will not dwell with Jesus for they did not want to act Christlike representing goodness but wanted to enjoy the world like the world enjoys it but they believe they are saved.

The Bible says if any person believes they stand take heed lest they fall, for that is when they get relaxed in their walk with God, and some may believe they can hold unto sin and be saved.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#4
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


  • So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
  • Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
  • Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
  • Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.
Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.
  • We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
  • We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
  • The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
  • The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
  • Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
  • In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.
So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)
  • Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
  • And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
  • And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.
  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes
  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
In the Old Covenant of the Law, there was never OSAS, for obvious reasons.
Jesus was under that Covenant of the Law during the 4 Gospels, and he thus preach that same covenant.
His death on the cross ushered in the new Covenant of Grace.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#5
Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
Yes, Virginia! You should! :)

Reminds me, when soon after that previous "event" I related to ya in another thread, I went and spent some $500.00 on a coupla "home school" college courses from Moody Bible Institute.
After I had mailed in the first lesson, and started on the 2nd?
His voice came to me asking: "You want them to teach you?" "Or Me?"

Of all the money I had spent previously on the "partyin'" I had done over the years?

That was the BEST $500.00 I had EVER "blown!"

Perhaps it's something Jesus' "sheep" won't hear!

But, God's "Priests" shall! :)
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
515
113
#7
In the Old Covenant of the Law, there was never OSAS, for obvious reasons.
Jesus was under that Covenant of the Law during the 4 Gospels, and he thus preach that same covenant.
His death on the cross ushered in the new Covenant of Grace.
Why would Jesus come to earth and spend three years ministering the word in such great detail just for it all to wash away at the cross. In other words, forget all of the teachings He gave. Why would you gamble with such a huge assertion as you have just made? Don't gamble with your soul Guojing....it is better for you to eat humble pie now and correct your course if you have been wrong all along. That goes for all here who hold the same thinking.
Ignore the words of Jesus at your own peril. Don't be silly about this.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#8
Why would Jesus come to earth and spend three years ministering the word in such great detail just for it all to wash away at the cross. In other words, forget all of the teachings He gave. Why would you gamble with such a huge assertion as you have just made? Don't gamble with your soul Guojing....it is better for you to eat humble pie now and correct your course if you have been wrong all along. That goes for all here who hold the same thinking.
Ignore the words of Jesus at your own peril. Don't be silly about this.
Wait, are you saying you see no difference between the 2 covenants, Law and Grace?

Are you a red letter Christian?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,939
3,352
113
#9
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.

  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.

  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes

  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?

  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
At this point had Peter been converted -Lu 22:32-(aka born again)?
This is where the issue hinges.
Otherwise people's salvation is dependent on whether or not they forgive others.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,937
1,545
113
#10
Why would Jesus come to earth and spend three years ministering the word in such great detail just for it all to wash away at the cross. In other words, forget all of the teachings He gave. Why would you gamble with such a huge assertion as you have just made? Don't gamble with your soul Guojing....it is better for you to eat humble pie now and correct your course if you have been wrong all along. That goes for all here who hold the same thinking.
Ignore the words of Jesus at your own peril. Don't be silly about this.
Here's how I see this [your OP]. Consider the following:

[quoting Wm Kelly's Commentary under Matthew 18, note his intro to chpt 18 here]

Matthew Chapter 18

"In Matthew 16 we had two subjects connected with the revelation of the Lord's person to Simon Peter: one of them, the Church, entirely new, or for the first time divulged; the other, the familiar subject of the kingdom of heaven. We shall find in the chapter before us these two things again brought together - not confounded or identified [old-fangled way of saying, "same thing"--he's saying they are not]. We are called to see the kingdom and the Church in their practical bearing. We have already learned that the Lord was to build the Church. "Upon this rock" (the confession of His person) "I will build My Church." Afterward, He promised to give the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Matthew 18 [source: BibleHub; bracketed comment mine, parenthesis original, bold mine]


[and note Wm Kelly's Commentary under Matthew 10, for further explanation of the above]

"[...]Now the servants were to be sent out, and in due order - twelve of them, in relation to the twelve tribes of the house of Israel. We find afterward the promise that they should "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." There need be no question, therefore, that this was a Jewish mission. When the Church was called, God broke in upon the mere Jewish order by calling an extraordinary apostle, with a special view to the Gentiles - one who was called after Christ had died, and risen, and had taken His place at the right hand of God. Then came in this new work in the calling of the Church, and the apostle Paul became the characteristic minister of the Church, though the twelve had their place too. But at this time the twelve apostles were to be (what Paul was not) the ministers to Israel in testimony of the kingdom of heaven. For, observe, the strictest injunction was given them that they were not to go outside the limits of Israel; not even to visit the Samaritans, nor to enter into the cities of the Gentiles. Their business was solely with the lost sheep of the house of Israel: a positive proof that it means those of the Jews who had a sense of sin, and who were willing to receive the testimony of the true Messiah. With them, their business was exclusively. It is the more remarkable, because in this Gospel we are told that after He had died and was risen, the Lord sent them out to the Gentiles; but then it was on the evident ground that His death had come in. "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me." Christ upon the cross becomes the attractive centre for man, as well as the foundation of all the counsels of God. Now in this case we have nothing of the sort. The Lord's death is not even referred to. His rejection is brought out, but nothing is said as to the building of a new structure - the Church. There was the waiting for still further rejection before this could be disclosed, as in Matthew 16.

"But here the Lord Jesus sends forth the twelve, and commands them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass, in your purses; nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat" (vers. 5-10). That is, they were to go just as they were, with the coat they had upon them, with the shoes they had then on their feet. They were not to provide anything, or to lay up any store as a means of support during their mission. This is not a universal rule for the servants of God at all times. It was a peculiar mission, for a special time, and with reference to Israel only. It was not the gospel of God's grace, but of the kingdom."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Matthew 10 [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting]


[my note: the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" ^ refers to "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" (promised to Israel); it will commence in full/in earnest upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth]
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,670
3,054
113
#11
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


  • So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
  • Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
  • Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
  • Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.
Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.
  • We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
  • We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
  • The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
  • The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
  • Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
  • In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.
So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)
  • Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
  • And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
  • And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.
  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes
  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
Was Peter a believer ?? Well at the time Jesus spoke these words to Jesus Peter was a follower of Jesus but Peter along with the other apostles did not really become Christian believers until the Day of pentecost when they recieved the Holy Spirit and where given understanding of the Way of salvation..

Now when it comes to OSAS doctrine i am not a believer in the OSAS doctrine..

Now when it comes to being unforgiving that is a sin along with all the other sins Jesus highlighted.. In this teaching Jesus was bringing to light just how high Gods bar was.. Are there Christians who have failed or a failing to be perfect in forgiving ? If one believes Jesus one will acknowledge their failure in forgiving as sin..

Will the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ cover the sin of failing to forgive?

Or is the failure to forgive an unforgivable sin?

Something to ponder and ask God about..
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,939
3,352
113
#12
Or is the failure to forgive an unforgivable sin?

Something to ponder and ask God about..
That would be something for God to fail to forgive sin based on our failure (as His children) to forgive sin.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Rom 5:10-11)
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,670
3,054
113
#13
That would be something for God to fail to forgive sin based on our failure (as His children) to forgive sin.
Yes and thats what the OP is saying in their post.. That our failure to forgive sin will lead to our sins being unforgiven by God.. Indeed that at any time our currently forgiven sins will be reinstated the moment we fail to forgive..

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Rom 5:10-11)
Not sure how this passage applies to the topic?

As for me i believe there are two ways one can cease to be saved..
1) By ceasing to believe Jesus and that His atonement pays for our sins
2) Commiting blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. Which is described in the verse below::

Mark 3: KJV
22 "¶ And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. {23} And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? {24} And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. {25} And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. {26} And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. {27} No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. {28} Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: {29} But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: {30} Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#14
Not sure how this passage applies to the topic?
Reread Romans 5:10. It is as clear as daylight that once a person has become His through being reconciled and made sons (while formerly were enemies), he shall be (future tense) saved by His life. (this includes His present intercession as High Priest in heaven.)

Romans 5:10 KJV
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Here, I'll add one more for good measure...

John 5:24 KJV
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#15
Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
True. But you are trying to establish Bible doctrine with a parable and taking it beyond its application.

So here's your answer: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

The Lord calls him a "wicked servant", which term does not apply to believers. And notice the debt is not a sin debt but a monetary debt.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#16
Wait, are you saying you see no difference between the 2 covenants, Law and Grace?

Are you a red letter Christian?
Hebrews 10v14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

There are two parts to the above scripture, which many overlook. We have a role in sanctification by the choices we make. The Lord says be holy, for he is holy. You have a duty to not live according to the flesh but rather according to the Spirit. This is your part to play in the sanctification process. The Holy Spirit leads and we willingly follow. Unforgiveness of your brother is not a Holy Spirit led action, but rather your own yielding to your flesh.

The new covenant was Jesus' sacrifice once for all, as opposed to an annual high priest activity. The new covenant can cleanse your conscience whereas the old covenant was a continual reminder and could not fully cleanse our consciences. For more on this:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/your-conscience.154042/
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-new-covenant.152420/
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#17
At this point had Peter been converted -Lu 22:32-(aka born again)?
This is where the issue hinges.
Otherwise people's salvation is dependent on whether or not they forgive others.
Bible doesnt say that conversion happens when the Holy Spirit enters you. The bible says that conversion happens when we believe in Jesus Christ (John 3v16). Holy Spirit is given as a gift to those who believe in Jesus.

Peter was already a believer in Jesus Christ. He left and forsook all to follow Jesus (so quite a commitment, and not the actions of an unbeliever). So this parable is very applicable to Peter.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#18
Here's how I see this [your OP]. Consider the following:

[quoting Wm Kelly's Commentary under Matthew 18, note his intro to chpt 18 here]

Matthew Chapter 18

"In Matthew 16 we had two subjects connected with the revelation of the Lord's person to Simon Peter: one of them, the Church, entirely new, or for the first time divulged; the other, the familiar subject of the kingdom of heaven. We shall find in the chapter before us these two things again brought together - not confounded or identified [old-fangled way of saying, "same thing"--he's saying they are not]. We are called to see the kingdom and the Church in their practical bearing. We have already learned that the Lord was to build the Church. "Upon this rock" (the confession of His person) "I will build My Church." Afterward, He promised to give the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Matthew 18 [source: BibleHub; bracketed comment mine, parenthesis original, bold mine]


[and note Wm Kelly's Commentary under Matthew 10, for further explanation of the above]

"[...]Now the servants were to be sent out, and in due order - twelve of them, in relation to the twelve tribes of the house of Israel. We find afterward the promise that they should "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." There need be no question, therefore, that this was a Jewish mission. When the Church was called, God broke in upon the mere Jewish order by calling an extraordinary apostle, with a special view to the Gentiles - one who was called after Christ had died, and risen, and had taken His place at the right hand of God. Then came in this new work in the calling of the Church, and the apostle Paul became the characteristic minister of the Church, though the twelve had their place too. But at this time the twelve apostles were to be (what Paul was not) the ministers to Israel in testimony of the kingdom of heaven. For, observe, the strictest injunction was given them that they were not to go outside the limits of Israel; not even to visit the Samaritans, nor to enter into the cities of the Gentiles. Their business was solely with the lost sheep of the house of Israel: a positive proof that it means those of the Jews who had a sense of sin, and who were willing to receive the testimony of the true Messiah. With them, their business was exclusively. It is the more remarkable, because in this Gospel we are told that after He had died and was risen, the Lord sent them out to the Gentiles; but then it was on the evident ground that His death had come in. "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me." Christ upon the cross becomes the attractive centre for man, as well as the foundation of all the counsels of God. Now in this case we have nothing of the sort. The Lord's death is not even referred to. His rejection is brought out, but nothing is said as to the building of a new structure - the Church. There was the waiting for still further rejection before this could be disclosed, as in Matthew 16.

"But here the Lord Jesus sends forth the twelve, and commands them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass, in your purses; nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat" (vers. 5-10). That is, they were to go just as they were, with the coat they had upon them, with the shoes they had then on their feet. They were not to provide anything, or to lay up any store as a means of support during their mission. This is not a universal rule for the servants of God at all times. It was a peculiar mission, for a special time, and with reference to Israel only. It was not the gospel of God's grace, but of the kingdom."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Matthew 10 [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting]


[my note: the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" ^ refers to "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" (promised to Israel); it will commence in full/in earnest upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth]
Jesus didn't spend 3 years teaching the disciples the Red Letter Word, just for all of this to be forgotten/ignored.considered irrelevant on the Day of Pentecost under the new Covenant and dispensation. Don't forget that his disciples were the very first members of the Church.

Ephesians 2 v14-18 - God has removed the separating wall between Jew and Gentile.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#19
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


  • So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
  • Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
  • Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
  • Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.
Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.
  • We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
  • We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
  • The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
  • The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
  • Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
  • In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.
So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)
  • Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
  • And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
  • And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.
  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes
  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
At the same time I find forgiveness a dicey topic. What precisely is forgiveness? Are we to simply view it in terms of this parable? If so, that simplifies forgiveness quite a bit. They don't owe me anything. Somehow I feel like forgiveness goes much deeper as there is some sort of payment that must be rendered (if I forgive a 10k debt, I lose 10k, presuming I do not loan at interest to my fellows).

I'll have to think on it, but I haven't actually ever thought about it in such simple terms as I am currently.


Usually, I over analyze what forgiveness is. Is it forgive and forget? Or process through, work through what you can...give the rest to the Lord?

I harbour some sort of scale in my heart as far as opening up myself to them to the level that produced perceived wounding. So while I am willing to still "lend" myself to them after a fashion, I would not lend quite as much as I feel that they have abused my trust after a fashion. So my "forgiveness" doesn't exactly measure itself in the same way that a dog that is kicked eventually seems to forget or perhaps likened unto a child.

Compartmentalized scaling is what it works out to. There's also a lot of stuff floating around to "cut out toxic people" in your life...and I wonder if there is perhaps something amiss in this approach. I can see how it could easily become, don't forgive...cut them out...move on. Time will allow for healing and maybe forgiveness or not.

^This doesn't seem correct to me, it's just that I don't forget. I close the door. I don't seal it with concrete...it "could" be opened again, but I won't make any effort to do so most likely, unless the other party shows interest.


Forgiveness is rather confusing for me to be honest.



If you boiled it down to monetary debt cancellation. I would cancel it as per OT law and this parable blended together...but I would be disinclined to extend credit in the future and would be scrutinize far more thoroughly. Live and learn? OR perhaps I am harboring some resentment over the cancellation...so I wonder, is that true forgiveness?

One thing I do feel as though factors into my own personal equation is that the cross left scars. Salvation isn't free, it cost something. Simply because something is a gift, doesn't make it "free".

As a result I reach a sort of impasse, that I don't fully understand yet.


What I do know, is that many more facets of forgiveness likely need to be considered.

Thoughts?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#20
Was Peter a believer ?? Well at the time Jesus spoke these words to Jesus Peter was a follower of Jesus but Peter along with the other apostles did not really become Christian believers until the Day of pentecost when they recieved the Holy Spirit and where given understanding of the Way of salvation.. This is not scripturally correct. They believed in Jesus long before Pentecost. Nowhere in scripture will you be able to find support for this statement you just made. Pentecost was not about the disciples first believing. It was about the empowering gift of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in the believer. Faith in Christ and the Gift of the Holy Spirit are two distinct events. First you believe, THEN you receive the gift. Jesus' command is to believe in Him. This the disciples did, long before Pentecost.

Now when it comes to OSAS doctrine i am not a believer in the OSAS doctrine.. Good

Now when it comes to being unforgiving that is a sin along with all the other sins Jesus highlighted.. In this teaching Jesus was bringing to light just how high Gods bar was.. Are there Christians who have failed or a failing to be perfect in forgiving ? If one believes Jesus one will acknowledge their failure in forgiving as sin.. I go by what the parable says. Seems pretty clear to me.

Will the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ cover the sin of failing to forgive? Not at the point of conversion. When we first come to the Lord warts and all there is a lot of cleaning up still to be done. What we have here in this parable is someone who after having been forgiven much REFUSES to in turn extend the same graces toward his fellow man. This is a danger zone. As the Lords prayer says, "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others".

Or is the failure to forgive an unforgivable sin? You have the order wrong. If I have had unforgiveness (a sin) in my heart towards my brother, the Lord can forgive me (If I repent of my unforgiveness). I cannot keep carrying around this hatred of my brother. A change has to occur. And a change will occur in the hearts of those who are His.

Something to ponder and ask God about..