Did Enoch Not Die?

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Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#1
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 seem to say Enoch did not die.

John 3:13 and Hebrews 11:13 seem to say that Enoch did die.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#2
Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death....

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises...

This is a good illustration of a principle of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation): use what is clear to interpret what is unclear. Nowhere does it say that Enoch "ascended to heaven", so we can set aside that objection. It does clearly state, "he was taken up"; but to what destination we aren't told. The writer could have said, "All these except Enoch..." but he chose the more succinct "All these", probably assuming that readers would mentally exclude Enoch from the statement since Enoch's situation is unique.

In summary, Enoch did not die. :)
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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#3
IMO John 3:13 means no one goes to heaven and comes back to this world.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#4
John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Is this the same death that Enoch didn't see?
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Active member
Feb 8, 2019
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#5
I do not find this to be a convincing argument.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death....

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises...

This is a good illustration of a principle of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation): use what is clear to interpret what is unclear. Nowhere does it say that Enoch "ascended to heaven", so we can set aside that objection. It does clearly state, "he was taken up"; but to what destination we aren't told. The writer could have said, "All these except Enoch..." but he chose the more succinct "All these", probably assuming that readers would mentally exclude Enoch from the statement since Enoch's situation is unique.

In summary, Enoch did not die. :)
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#7
Jesus said no man has ascended in to heaven while He was on earth, but the son of man, who is also in heaven, for Jesus is God who is everywhere, for the truth is that the man Christ Jesus has to be the first one to ascend to heaven, for how can a human in need of salvation get there before Him, and Jesus had to put the blood on the mercy seat in heaven before anyone can enter, for He is the High Priest, and the saints are priests.

So Enoch, and Elijah, that were caught up could of not gone to where the man Christ Jesus went when He was caught up, although they can be there now.

And Enoch, and Elijah, also did not have the blood of Christ to completely take away their sins, so where did they go when the Old Testament saints had to sleep until the blood of Christ was shed to completely take away sins, for then they could rise for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Where did they go if they did not have to sleep, and could be be caught up to where the man Christ Jesus was caught up for He had to be the first one.

Did they go to paradise where Lazarus went that could not be the place where the man Christ Jesus was caught up.

Also John the Baptist was greater than Enoch and Elijah, for Jesus said born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, for he had the Spirit from the womb, not to save him but to give him power to live right to prepare the way for Jesus in the future, and John was not saved while he was alive on earth for the blood of Christ was not shed yet, and John was not taken up alive like Enoch and Elijah.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Jesus did say that Elijah comes before Him for it is in Malachi, and then said Elijah already came, and referred to John the Baptist, so was that the purpose for Elijah being caught up to affect John in the future.

Enoch was taken before the flood, like the Church will be taken before the wrath of God.

So is Enoch taken up before the flood as a reference to the resurrection of the Church before the wrath of God on earth, and Elijah to affect John the Baptist in the future.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#9
Elijah has not yet tasted death and is coming back one day. I believe that he is one of the two witnesses as stated in Revelation. If this indeed happens then he will in fact die one day but will be risen from the dead.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
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#10
Elijah has not yet tasted death and is coming back one day. I believe that he is one of the two witnesses as stated in Revelation. If this indeed happens then he will in fact die one day but will be risen from the dead.
He is faith goals..not die but get picked up by angels
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Active member
Feb 8, 2019
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#11
The "probably assuming".

Hebrews 11:13 begins with "All these people died in faith"
If being succinct was the a goal then why not leave out "all" ?
"these people died in faith" would be more succinct.

Any particular part you find inadequate?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#12
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 seem to say Enoch did not die.

John 3:13 and Hebrews 11:13 seem to say that Enoch did die.
I tend to agree with this Commentary writer, the most succinctly written I could find (on this point, regarding the Hebrews 11:8-19 section):

[quoting]

[re: 'these all'] "οὗτοι πάντες] is referred by Oecumenius, Theophylact, Primasius, Ribera, Justinian, Drusius, and Bloomfield to all the before-mentioned persons, from Abel onwards, with the single exception of Enoch. Nevertheless, as is evident from the contents of the following verse, only those among them can have been thought of to whom promises were given, thus Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, and Jacob. Comp. specially Hebrews 11:15." --H A W Meyer's NT Commentary (on Hebrews 11)

[end quoting; source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#13
John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Is this the same death that Enoch didn't see?

Psalm 90:10 We live at best to be seventy years old, maybe eighty, if we’re strong. But their duration brings hard work and trouble because they go by so quickly. And then we fly off.

Yes, the gift of faith...…... the light of the gospel. It as with us gave Enoch the assurance he had passed from the second death to newly created eternal born again life. He looked ahead by the Spirit of Christ in him when the Holy Spirit bore witness beforehand about the suffering that would happen to Christ and the glory that would follow. We by the same spirit of faith (not of us) as the treasure we have in us looks back to that representation of the coming glory in the new heavens and earth.(1 Peter1:11)

John 5:23-25 (CEB) so that everyone will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.“I assure you that "whoever hears my word and believes" in the one who sent me has eternal life and "won’t come under judgment" but has passed from death into life. “I assure you that the time is coming—and is here!—when the dead will hear the voice of God’s Son, and those who hear it will live

And those who hear it not will never rise to new spirit life.

Everyone is receiving the wage of sin the first death.

Having tasted of death( dying or ageing ) Our living hope come from the Spirit of Christ . He bore our sins in his Spirit pouring out his spirit on flesh .We have a newly created heart and new spirit. It will rise on the last day and not face the second death. Never to rise to new spirit life and receive a new incorruptible bodies.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

It is the same death that Enoch could not see by walking by sight, man's understanding . The spiritual understanding hid from men without the Spirit of Christ.. They are spiritually discerned by the same spirit of faith, as it is writtten
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#14
Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death....

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises...

This is a good illustration of a principle of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation): use what is clear to interpret what is unclear. Nowhere does it say that Enoch "ascended to heaven", so we can set aside that objection. It does clearly state, "he was taken up"; but to what destination we aren't told. The writer could have said, "All these except Enoch..." but he chose the more succinct "All these", probably assuming that readers would mentally exclude Enoch from the statement since Enoch's situation is unique.

In summary, Enoch did not die. :)
Did not (could not) die the second death. In the process of dying the first a must.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#15
John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

John 8:56 [blb] says (relative to the context of this discussion at hand), "Abraham your father rejoiced in that he should see My day--and he saw it and rejoiced."

As one commentator put it,

"The words, “My day,” are used, as in Luke 17:22, for the manifestation of Christ on earth."

[I see a cpl other commentaries also stating that this (John 8:56 verse) refers to Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, rather than His first advent/earthly ministry in the first century...]

Something to consider, anyway, seeing as your John 8:51 verse is in the same context as this John 8:56. :unsure:


[also noticing that "Abraham" is mentioned 11x in John 8 (in 9 verses... but nowhere else in John)]
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#16
The "probably assuming".

Hebrews 11:13 begins with "All these people died in faith"
If being succinct was the a goal then why not leave out "all" ?
"these people died in faith" would be more succinct.
Someone would find fault with that too. I don't believe the Bible was written with the kind of persnickety paranoia regarding every possible misinterpretation that many modern readers attribute to it. :)
 
W

Wild

Guest
#17
It is appointed for men to die once and then the judgement. Enoch and Ellijah were taken away, they did not die. So it is safe to say that the two witnesses of tribulation will be those two.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#18
John 8:56 [blb] says (relative to the context of this discussion at hand), "Abraham your father rejoiced in that he should see My day--and he saw it and rejoiced."

As one commentator put it,

"The words, “My day,” are used, as in Luke 17:22, for the manifestation of Christ on earth."

[I see a cpl other commentaries also stating that this (John 8:56 verse) refers to Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, rather than His first advent/earthly ministry in the first century...]

Something to consider, anyway, seeing as your John 8:51 verse is in the same context as this John 8:56. :unsure:


[also noticing that "Abraham" is mentioned 11x in John 8 (in 9 verses... but nowhere else in John)]
My day is in reference to the last day, the day of the lord the end of time. They looked ahead by a faith not of their own selves. The faith that comes from hearing God not seen. .

This shows we are receiving as a living hope that moves us forward from the beginning of our salvation to the end. When we first passed from death to life. The work as our confidence if he has begun it...... he will finish it to the last day, His day .(Philipians1:6)

We given the opportunity simply look by the same faith Christ that works in us, back to that glory.

Receiving the "end of your faith", even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1;11

Again by the same spirit of faith that worked in those Old testament saints it works mutually in all believers today.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#19
John 8:56 [blb] says (relative to the context of this discussion at hand), "Abraham your father rejoiced in that he should see My day--and he saw it and rejoiced."
As one commentator put it, "The words, “My day,” are used, as in Luke 17:22, for the manifestation of Christ on earth."
[I see a cpl other commentaries also stating that this (John 8:56 verse) refers to Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, rather than His first advent/earthly ministry in the first century...]
Something to consider, anyway, seeing as your John 8:51 verse is in the same context as this John 8:56. :unsure:
[also noticing that "Abraham" is mentioned 11x in John 8 (in 9 verses... but nowhere else in John)]
^ [just to add to that] The phrase "rejoice [G5463] and exult [G21]" as used here in John 8:56 (re: Abraham and Jesus' "My day") is used in a few other key places:

--Matthew 5:10-12, esp v.12 - "10 Blessed are those having been persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. 11 Blessed are you when they shall insult you and shall persecute you, and lying shall say all kinds of evil against you on account of Me. 12 Rejoice [G5463] and exult [G21], because great is your reward in the heavens; for thus they persecuted the prophets before you." [note: 'the kingdom of the heavens' referring to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, when Jesus is present there, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth]

--1 Peter 4:13 - "But as you have shared in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice [G5463], so that also in the revelation of His glory you may rejoice [G5463], exulting [G21]." [note that wherever the definite article ('the') is used in connection with the word "revelation," it refers to His actual, Personal Presence, as opposed to merely an awareness/understanding of Him]

--Revelation 19:7 - "we should rejoice [G5463] and should exult [G21], because the marriage of the Lamb is come [aorist] and His Bride/Wife has made herself ready..."

--Zephaniah 3:14-15, esp. v.14 - "Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; rejoice [H8055] and exult [H5937] with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more."

____________

^ EDIT: just to tack onto my post above, a brief quote from my Post #529, Page 27 (of a different thread):

"[adding the passages I've pointed out in the past: 1Jn4:2 "having come [perfect participle] in flesh" is distinct from 2Jn1:7's "who confess not Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh"]" [end of that quoted post]

____________


"…those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh."
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#20
It is appointed for men to die once and then the judgement. Enoch and Ellijah were taken away, they did not die. So it is safe to say that the two witnesses of tribulation will be those two.
They walked by faith the unseen eternal having passed from eternal death of the spirit to new spirit life that will be raised on the last day and given its promised incorruptible body, as the chaste virgin bride of Christ.

The two witness are the law and the prophets represented by Moses as Elijah . Moses represents the written law that kills and the power of the prophets the words that heal and bring new spirit life. Both working together a one perfect law.