Did God require sacrifice?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#1
or was it man?

The cross, was it God's justice that had to be fullfilled, or was it God's demonstration of His love, that in the eyes of sinful men, they could not accept forgiveness of sins for which they deserved death that God put their punishment on His Son, to justify God in man's eyes as being righteous.

That God so loved the world that He decided the best way to show that was putting man's sin on Jesus that He might declare His love for us, saying, look, your punishment has been paid, come to Me. Was God justifing His forgiveness of sinners to Himself? Or was it that God was demonstrating His righteousness to sinful men who require a price be paid for their debt? He gives the water of life freely. So was the cross there for God's sake, that He required it, or was it that man required it. Man being wicked and not understanding the love or forgiveness of God could not accept forgiveness without a price being paid. God had been sending prophets calling the people to repentance, and you see the ultimate fruit that brought in bringing them to repentance for there had been many prophets. So then God sends the ultimate prophet, His own Son, who teaches men the true nature of the law and demonstrates to men the true nature of God.
Why did Jesus ask them if they understood the scripture, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice"? Was Jesus on the cross God's sacrifice to man or man's sacrifice to God?


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


Is it then that God needed the sacrifice, or that He offered man the sacrifice to show His love for us. That He gave His most beloved, most cherished Son, hung Him on a cross, put the sin of the world on Him, poured His wrath out on Him, so that we would believe that God will forgive us. If it wasn't God's requirement for forgiveness but man's, woe to man, that we would require God to put our punishment on Jesus, so we could believe God is merciful.


I was listening to a sermon yesterday and the pastor said that it isn't explained in the bible why God choose the cross and they mentioned that even Martin loyd Jones said he couldn't explain it, why God became manifest as a man and put on the cross to reconsile Himself to man. So that's what got me thinking about why.​
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#2
Yes, I would say that God did require blood sacrifice, only because of the sin of man and Satan and thus the Fall.

"Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22.

But it is clear that the blood of animals is not taking away the sin - Hebrews 10:11. But it seems to hold or put off God wrath temporarily, He passes over when He sees the blood of the lamb on the door in Exodus, so it is a substitution but it is not an adequate one, the blood is required, why? Because 'life is in the blood' and all blood comes from God, there is a sign here a pattern always emerging through the OT and blood sacrifice up until God sacrifices His own divine blood.

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of things, can never with those sacrifices which they offer year by year continually make comers thereunto perfect." Hebrews 10:1

and then.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared for me." Hebrews 10:5

After the Fall the only way that God could restore Creation, the only way that He could redeem it was if fallen Creation prepared for Him a material body that He could enter into, that life in that body needed to be sacrificed, now all the sacrifices previously did act as a preservation they were holding off God's wrath until the time was ready for Him to enter, the blood of bulls and goats did not take away sin, why? Because it was sinful blood, it was already stained, it was not perfect; perfection was required to be the substitute sacrifice for the loss of perfection, this is the law of God, only by life can life be redeemed...

From the moment after the Fall, blood was required of another unless the sinner die, that if the sinner die not, there must be a substitute, it has a second purpose as I mentioned it serves as an example, as a rite instituted as an archtype of the real great sacrifice that was needed. The first sacrifice after the Fall is performed by God, as Adam and Eve stood before Him trembling and clothed in makeshift fig-leaves, which was the best that the sinners could think of, to no avail. What did God do?

"Unto Adam called his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them." Gen. 3:21

God took another creature, sacrificed it in front of Adam and Eve, who at that stage would have been shocked to see the life-blood of one of God beautiful creatures spill forth and watch it carcass go limp and fall to the ground and die, this first sacrifice would have utterly terrified them, but God was showing them the consequences of what they had done, not this is what they would have to perform as well. God took the skins of the slain animals and made coats with which he cloathed the trembling pair. And thus begun the Gospel preached from the beginning, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was revealed as soon as sin had made His death necessary. The blood robe of His perfection and righteousness was required to be put on by every sinner. Amen.







 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#3
Psalm 51:16
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;You do not delight in burnt offering.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#4
Yes, I would say that God did require blood sacrifice, only because of the sin of man and Satan and thus the Fall.

"Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22.

But it is clear that the blood of animals is not taking away the sin - Hebrews 10:11. But it seems to hold or put off God wrath temporarily, He passes over when He sees the blood of the lamb on the door in Exodus, so it is a substitution but it is not an adequate one, the blood is required, why? Because 'life is in the blood' and all blood comes from God, there is a sign here a pattern always emerging through the OT and blood sacrifice up until God sacrifices His own divine blood.

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of things, can never with those sacrifices which they offer year by year continually make comers thereunto perfect." Hebrews 10:1

and then.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared for me." Hebrews 10:5

After the Fall the only way that God could restore Creation, the only way that He could redeem it was if fallen Creation prepared for Him a material body that He could enter into, that life in that body needed to be sacrificed, now all the sacrifices previously did act as a preservation they were holding off God's wrath until the time was ready for Him to enter, the blood of bulls and goats did not take away sin, why? Because it was sinful blood, it was already stained, it was not perfect; perfection was required to be the substitute sacrifice for the loss of perfection, this is the law of God, only by life can life be redeemed...

From the moment after the Fall, blood was required of another unless the sinner die, that if the sinner die not, there must be a substitute, it has a second purpose as I mentioned it serves as an example, as a rite instituted as an archtype of the real great sacrifice that was needed. The first sacrifice after the Fall is performed by God, as Adam and Eve stood before Him trembling and clothed in makeshift fig-leaves, which was the best that the sinners could think of, to no avail. What did God do?

"Unto Adam called his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them." Gen. 3:21

God took another creature, sacrificed it in front of Adam and Eve, who at that stage would have been shocked to see the life-blood of one of God beautiful creatures spill forth and watch it carcass go limp and fall to the ground and die, this first sacrifice would have utterly terrified them, but God was showing them the consequences of what they had done, not this is what they would have to perform as well. God took the skins of the slain animals and made coats with which he cloathed the trembling pair. And thus begun the Gospel preached from the beginning, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was revealed as soon as sin had made His death necessary. The blood robe of His perfection and righteousness was required to be put on by every sinner. Amen.
To continue on the idea with God clothing Adam and Eve with the skins, after they had sinned it wasn't God who saw them as naked but themselves. Was it that God put the clothing on them so He wouldn't see their nakedness or that THEY wouldn't see their own? This would seem to support the idea that the sacrifice was made for man's sake, not God's.

I find something very beautiful about God in the verse when He says, "Who told you that you were naked?" God knew they were naked and obviously didn't care. It was when man saw his sin that he fell was it not? I mean, he was naked before. That is interesting, I love when I see something in scripture like this as I'm talking about it. Praise God.

Now, about the verses from Hebrews, they are speaking about the law aren't they? From scripture we find out that the law was given for sinful men. It wasn't given for God right? I mean didn't God say to Isreal, I have loved you because I have loved you?
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#5
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#6
Psalm 51:16
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;You do not delight in burnt offering.
In other words, there was no sacrifice under the law for murder and adultery.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#7
In other words, there was no sacrifice under the law for murder and adultery.
Yet David was not condemned, God had mercy on him. From what I read of the law, there is no sacrifice for intentional sin, it is only God that can have mercy on you.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#8
To continue on the idea with God clothing Adam and Eve with the skins, after they had sinned it wasn't God who saw them as naked but themselves. Was it that God put the clothing on them so He wouldn't see their nakedness or that THEY wouldn't see their own? This would seem to support the idea that the sacrifice was made for man's sake, not God's.
Well firstly, Adam and Eve having lost their immortal bodies, now I can only speculate on the nature of their immortal bodies, but they didn't have a need to cloth themselves. After the fall they would have felt cold, and heat, they made make-shift fig leaves before they presented themselves to God, their clothing was obviously not adequate, and God needed to provide them with clothing. I agree with you that God also needed the blood of the slain animals for man's salvation, although He was going top have to provide the final solution so to speak - the great sacrifice, so He introduces the archtype, the rite in which would lead to that, and it was going to take time before a suitable body to be prepared for Him to enter so He could provide the necessary perfect blood, all previous sacrifices would have been appeasement, a temporary substitute, which seems to hold off His wrath, but not solve the problem of the sin, it was a cover until God performed His great sacrifice on the Cross.

I find something very beautiful about God in the verse when He says, "Who told you that you were naked?" God knew they were naked and obviously didn't care. It was when man saw his sin that he fell was it not? I mean, he was naked before. That is interesting, I love when I see something in scripture like this as I'm talking about it. Praise God.
Yes, man lost his immportal clothing, was it a divine glow or light that clothed him? I don't know, but whatever it was he lost it and was open to exposure to the physical elements, the whole earth was cursed as well so the environment became more extreme, thus the need for material clothing.

Now, about the verses from Hebrews, they are speaking about the law aren't they? From scripture we find out that the law was given for sinful men. It wasn't given for God right? I mean didn't God say to Isreal, I have loved you because I have loved you?
That's right.
 
Last edited:
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#10
like Dino said Definition_Christ. it's not an absolute statement that God doesn't desire sacrifice, its referring to David not being able to make any sacrifice for his crimes of murder and adultery.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#11
In looking at the scripture, it doesn't say that they eat from the tree of sin, but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

gen.2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."


The scripture states here that they were in fact naked, after they ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, they saw there evil(nakedness).

God knew they were naked, He was fine with it. God created them that way. The scripture doesn't that they were clothed, ate of the fruit and then stripped down. They saw their sin and attempted to hide it.

This reminds of something Jesus said, not sure how to relate it though.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#12
like Dino said Definition_Christ. it's not an absolute statement that God doesn't desire sacrifice, its referring to David not being able to make any sacrifice for his crimes of murder and adultery.
Yeah I get what you're saying. Can you show me the scripture that says that?
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#13
I dont know about scriptures im not that familiar withthe old testament sacrifical system but i did look up some theologians Wesley and Gill which say the same thing:

Wesley:

Psa 51:16 Not sacrifice - This is not to be understood absolutely, with respect to David's crimes, which were not to be expiated by any sacrifice.

Gill

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice,.... Legal sacrifice; for there was no sacrifice appointed under the law for murder and adultery;
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#14
Ahh even better, this website says something, from Atlantic Baptist University

http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom2.htm


[SIZE=+1]Efficacy of Sacrifices[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]O[/SIZE]nly sins committed unintentionally could be atoned for by sacrifices and only after the offender had come to the realisation of his fault. (Could apply to some sins committed consciously. Dishonest dealing, failure to speak of sin).
But sins of the upraised hand or high handed sins could not be atoned for by sacrificial ritual. For these only the death penalty would due. These would be classified as any violation of the Ten Commandments or rejection of the Covenant.
Sometimes forgiveness could be granted to one with a broken and contrite heart even when the offences (adultery and murder) were too great for atonement by sacrifice. Examples of these would be David who committed murder and adultery but who also repented 2 Samuel 4:1 and Moses pleading for the people after the golden calf incident. Exodus 32:4 True repentance brings real forgiveness. The outward act of sacrifice was always to include the inward attitude of contrition. Isaiah 66:2-4; Jeremiah 6:20; 7:22-24 The sacrifices themselves had no power to forgive or remove sin. Their purpose was in pointing to Christ who alone is the sacrifice for sin and who can grant forgiveness and deliverance from the wrath of God. The meal and drink offerings were used in the daily food of the people and offered to God in worship. They owe their efficacy however to the animal sacrifices as it was on this basis that the people approached God for acceptance.






So I guess, it makes sense that a general statement that God doesn't desires sacrifice would really contradict Christ's mission and purpose, and other passages that talk about us making sacrifices, like sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#15
I dont know about scriptures im not that familiar withthe old testament sacrifical system
Well okay then. I was going to ask what Scripture they based that commentary on but nevermind.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#16
Hebrews 10
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#17
Well okay then. I was going to ask what Scripture they based that commentary on but nevermind.
They dont give any other verses it is just related to Psa 51:16 .
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#18
I believe that there was no provision in the law for any intentional sin. the penalty for that was death. Many times it says that we are freed from the law of sin and death.

Now what does the sacrifice in the law do, a man would take something of his own and put it on God's alter and kill/burn/destroy it. Was it done for God's sake? or the man's? Could God not forgive them except for the physical offering? Was it even about that? I would say not since God required that the man give it willingly. Was it then that the man had to repent, even in offering? In the gospel we see God taking something of His own and kill it for us. Was the gospel not proclaiming God's sacrifice TO man? Like under the law sinful men used sacrifices to demonstrate their love for God. God used His sacrifice to demonstrate His love for man. God didn't do it because He HAD to, for His own conceinse. I think God knows He is just in whom He forgives, He knows a man's heart. I think it was fallen man who wanted sacrifice, it is not in OUR nature to freely forgive. Look at God's nature demonstrated in Jesus, He didn't say make your brother sacrifice then forgive him. He said as many times as he repents you forgive him that many times. What I'm saying is that I don't think the sacrifice was made because God had to so He could forgive us. It was God showing His love for us, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased", watch Me cut Him down, I do this for you, now come, I put your sin on Him, now come, I will give you His life, now come, I love you, now come, just as you are, now come, I will wash you clean, now come. Amen
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#19
Ahh even better, this website says something, from Atlantic Baptist University

http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom2.htm


[SIZE=+1]Efficacy of Sacrifices[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]O[/SIZE]nly sins committed unintentionally could be atoned for by sacrifices and only after the offender had come to the realisation of his fault. (Could apply to some sins committed consciously. Dishonest dealing, failure to speak of sin).
But sins of the upraised hand or high handed sins could not be atoned for by sacrificial ritual. For these only the death penalty would due. These would be classified as any violation of the Ten Commandments or rejection of the Covenant.
Sometimes forgiveness could be granted to one with a broken and contrite heart even when the offences (adultery and murder) were too great for atonement by sacrifice. Examples of these would be David who committed murder and adultery but who also repented 2 Samuel 4:1 and Moses pleading for the people after the golden calf incident. Exodus 32:4 True repentance brings real forgiveness. The outward act of sacrifice was always to include the inward attitude of contrition. Isaiah 66:2-4; Jeremiah 6:20; 7:22-24 The sacrifices themselves had no power to forgive or remove sin. Their purpose was in pointing to Christ who alone is the sacrifice for sin and who can grant forgiveness and deliverance from the wrath of God. The meal and drink offerings were used in the daily food of the people and offered to God in worship. They owe their efficacy however to the animal sacrifices as it was on this basis that the people approached God for acceptance.






So I guess, it makes sense that a general statement that God doesn't desires sacrifice would really contradict Christ's mission and purpose, and other passages that talk about us making sacrifices, like sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving.
I would like to point out that rarely does Jesus talk about His sacrifice, it is mostly the apostles who were mostly men under the law at one point,this would point to the nature of man wanting sacrifice. Probably one of the strongest Jesus makes is talking about something not bearing fruit until it dies.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you what Christ emphased in His preaching, if you only read the gospels you wouldn't come away with the sacrifice being the emphasis of it I believe.
 
1

1Covenant

Guest
#20
I dont know about scriptures im not that familiar withthe old testament sacrifical system but i did look up some theologians Wesley and Gill which say the same thing:

Wesley:

Psa 51:16 Not sacrifice - This is not to be understood absolutely, with respect to David's crimes, which were not to be expiated by any sacrifice.

Gill

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice,.... Legal sacrifice; for there was no sacrifice appointed under the law for murder and adultery;
That is all technically correct but as you say in a later post this is not a hard fast rule as some in the OT are forgiven even without a specific ritual sacrifice.
The point therefore is more in line with what Jesus says "I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
The rest of Psalm 51 is about repentance..."The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,A broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.