Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
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Well said Eli12,

I was considering the two verses in Hebrews there and how the Israelites were redeemed from Egypt came under the blood/lintel doorposts Justification, walked out of Egypt/Redemption, Passed through the Red Sea/Baptism Came face to face with Gods requirements, The Laws and agreed/Sanctification Walk in procession to the Promised Land/Future Glorification! But many of them DREW BACK! God was/is in the process of purging the flesh, the carnal man through His Holy Spirit! This takes time in the wilderness! Nope, it aint Egypt! It's a life of abstinance, obedience crucifying the flesh, but many DRAW BACK and God is NOT PLEASED with us when we do that, we cannot do that. The terms are to go through the process of sanctification! The flesh hates it! Many who scream back at anyone who says you must submit the flesh to the cross, it must die! They do not want the flesh to die so they fight that which proves it's alive! THE LAW! The flesh HATES the law and does not want it, but those who submit to the introspection of the Holy Spirit as it courses throughout the secret chambers of lusts and pleasure in sin and pride will find the process is only as hard as you hold on to your sins! Let them go, submit to Gods requirements. If not, if you choose to DRAW BACK;

Heb 10:38-39 KJV Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If there is permanent salvation then this verse is moot, means nothing if there's nothing to draw back unto perdition! RIGHT?

Thanks for sharing those verses. Something should shake that lie out of their consciousness sooner or later! Thankfully we have the Holy Spirit to soften our heart and give us the desire to walk in obedience!
There it is. This passage explain that very well:

Heb 3:7 For this reason, just as the holy spirit says: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, 8 do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger, as in the day of making the test in the wilderness, 9 in which YOUR forefathers made a test of me with a trial, and yet they had seen my works for forty years. 10 For this reason I became disgusted with this generation and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts, and they themselves have not come to know my ways.’ 11 So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest.’”

12 Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of YOU a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God; 13 but keep on exhorting one another each day, as long as it may be called “Today,” for fear any one of YOU should become hardened by the deceptive power of sin. 14 For we actually become partakers of the Christ only if we make fast our hold on the confidence we had at the beginning firm to the end, 15 while it is being said: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger.”

16 For who were they that heard and yet provoked to bitter anger? Did not, in fact, all do so who went out of Egypt under Moses? 17 Moreover, with whom did [God] become disgusted for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? 18 But to whom did he swear that they should not enter into his rest except to those who acted disobediently? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of lack of faith.

4:1 Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of YOU may seem to have fallen short of it. 2 For we have had the good news declared to us also, even as they also had; but the word which was heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who did hear. 3 For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world. 4 For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter into my rest.”

6 Since, therefore, it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again marks off a certain day by saying after so long a time in David’s [psalm] “Today”; just as it has been said above: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, [God] would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. 10 For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own.

11 Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.

It is clear that faith must be accompanied by obedience ... and that obedience must be up to the end.
 
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Hi to all :)

Just some constructive feedback. It seems to me as an outsider here looking in, that there may be some misunderstandings in relation to what you guys collectively are arguing about.

It seems that one group thinks the other group is saying that they are saved by what they do and the other side believe that the other groups believes that obedience is not a fruit of ones faith. Is this correct and could this be a misunderstanding that may be happening in this thread?

Does anyone believe they are saved by the things they do?

Does anyone believe they are saved if they do not follow what God has asked us to do?

For me I believe we are only saved by grace through faith by the blood of Jesus and faith in his word and because he has given me a heart to love him and my neighbore I choose to follow him who laid his life down for me that I might live.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding in what is being shared here? I do not know God does. Hope you do not mind me sharing my thoughts from an outsider looking in. Remember without love we are nothing just the same as without Jesus we cannot do anything.

Blessings all.
Greetings 3rdAngel,

Thank you for your kind efforts. You are correct in observing these claims, but I do not know anyone here who hasn't professed that their justification is an unmerited gift of Grace! We have all been humbled by our sin as God called us to His son, His Lamb, our redeemer!

After your Justification, you say you "choose to follow Him who laid His life down you that you might live"

We consider our walk after justification the Sanctification process as we "Follow Him" through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Even this is a gift as we are given a heart to please him as our choices fall in line with His will. We are given Christs example and His words to follow which leads us to obedience to the Laws.

Many of the heated discussions are about OSAS-Once Saved Always Saved. The argument is important as it is rendering out the misunderstandings about what we do or do not do in the sanctification process and whether if we DRAW BACK as illuminated in Hebrews 10:38-39.

Bless our Heavenly Father, Follow Jesus!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Heb 10:38-39 KJV Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
highlight the part which speaks of true believers
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi to all :)

Just some constructive feedback. It seems to me as an outsider here looking in, that there may be some misunderstandings in relation to what you guys collectively are arguing about.

It seems that one group thinks the other group is saying that they are saved by what they do and the other side believe that the other groups believes that obedience is not a fruit of ones faith. Is this correct and could this be a misunderstanding that may be happening in this thread?

Does anyone believe they are saved by the things they do?

Does anyone believe they are saved if they do not follow what God has asked us to do?

For me I believe we are only saved by grace through faith by the blood of Jesus and faith in his word and because he has given me a heart to love him and my neighbore I choose to follow him who laid his life down for me that I might live.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding in what is being shared here? I do not know God does. Hope you do not mind me sharing my thoughts from an outsider looking in. Remember without love we are nothing just the same as without Jesus we cannot do anything.

Blessings all.
A good way to see if a person is saying they are saved by the things they do is see what they say about works

If they say works are required they believe salvation is paid for my works. Also they believe salvation can be lost because of something they do or something they fail to do thay are in fact trusting in self not the god who says he has perfected forever. And promises the work he started he will
Complete

Many Claim they teach faith alone but if you listen to them they do not really believe i
 
Dec 9, 2011
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There it is. This passage explain that very well:

Heb 3:7 For this reason, just as the holy spirit says: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, 8 do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger, as in the day of making the test in the wilderness, 9 in which YOUR forefathers made a test of me with a trial, and yet they had seen my works for forty years. 10 For this reason I became disgusted with this generation and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts, and they themselves have not come to know my ways.’ 11 So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest.’”

12 Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of YOU a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God; 13 but keep on exhorting one another each day, as long as it may be called “Today,” for fear any one of YOU should become hardened by the deceptive power of sin. 14 For we actually become partakers of the Christ only if we make fast our hold on the confidence we had at the beginning firm to the end, 15 while it is being said: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger.”

16 For who were they that heard and yet provoked to bitter anger? Did not, in fact, all do so who went out of Egypt under Moses? 17 Moreover, with whom did [God] become disgusted for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? 18 But to whom did he swear that they should not enter into his rest except to those who acted disobediently? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of lack of faith.

4:1 Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of YOU may seem to have fallen short of it. 2 For we have had the good news declared to us also, even as they also had; but the word which was heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who did hear. 3 For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world. 4 For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter into my rest.”

6 Since, therefore, it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again marks off a certain day by saying after so long a time in David’s [psalm] “Today”; just as it has been said above: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, [God] would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. 10 For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own.

11 Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.

It is clear that faith must be accompanied by obedience ... and that obedience must be up to the end.
What about the thief on the cross unless you mean obedience to faith.GOD looks at the heart and HE knows your Intentions.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
 

Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
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What about the thief? Jesus can forgive sins as he was doing a lot. Those persons he healed before, if they didn't follow him after that, they were not christians just because they were healed and their sins forgiven. In the resurrection they will answer about their works, like the thief. The advantage of the thief was he died inmediately, but he will be resurrected to be judge like everybody else.

About Abraham, you are seing only one side of the picture ... That is not the correct way to understand the Scriptures:

Jas 2:20 (ALT) But are you willing to recognize, O empty [fig., foolish] person, that such faith without such works is dead?
21 Abraham our father, he was justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works, having offered Isaac his son upon the altar, was he not?
22 Do you see that his faith was working together with his works, and by means of the works his faith was perfected?
23 And [so] was fulfilled the Scripture, the one saying, "But Abraham believed [or, trusted] God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called a friend of God.
24 So you see that a person is justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works and not by means of faith only.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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It is clear that faith must be accompanied by obedience ... and that obedience must be up to the end.
What about the thief on the cross unless you mean obedience to faith.GOD looks at the heart and HE knows your Intentions.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
What about the thief? Jesus can forgive sins as he was doing a lot./QUOTE]

That's your response?You just said that faith MUST be accompanied by works and the thief on the cross didn't do works unless you meant to say obedience to faith or In other words choose to believe and say yes.
 

Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
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Please do not chop my comments when you quote me. Thank you.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
If you don't put an 'and' between 'His Will, His Law, His Word' then you imply they are equal and all the same.
So you went from accusing me of saying Jesus was the Law to this?
His Will, Law and Word are the same.
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

(Psa 40:8; Heb 10:7 KJV)


God said,
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

God said,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10 KJV)

God said,
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

God said,

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
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Greetings STH,

No Doubt Abraham had faith! We do well to recognize how important this is. In all of your meditations upon Abraham's faith do not discard what his faith was accompanied by;


Gen 26:5 KJV Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The question is; Are "Faith" and "Obedience" related?

For a moment, try not to consider faith as a "stand alone" dynamic of Righteousness.

You know that Jesus is;

Heb 12:2 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

No matter how many disputes you and I may have, we both take comfort in that one! :)

But we have to look at the caveats to our faith in verses like;

Heb 5:9 KJV And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, to all who "obey" Him. Well that doesn't really shoot down salvation for anyone, because He also said;

Php 2:13 KJV For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So is it us doing this? No! BUT WAIT. Don't forget the dynamic of our being! There's the New Creation/ Spiritual Man and the Old man Carnal man. So many of these verses do not address both aspects to our being! I like the old saying; We have two dogs fighting inside us; a White dog and a black dog! Which one wins the fight depends upon which one we feed the most!

If you feed the New Creation with Scripture reading and studying and obedience then the white dog is stronger and prevails, however if you do not Read the scriptures and study and do sinful acts then the black dog is stronger and prevails over the white dog. Not a perfect analogy but it gets to the point.

Our Heavenly Father gave us His scriptures in such a way that we could get any interpretation we sought out of them. This is part of the beauty of them really. He knows some men will seek answers they are looking for and some will seek the truth, no matter how hard or demanding! If you pray that He leads you away from error and to the truth and just push back away from any and every understanding you have and can honestly stay focused on the truth above personal desires for what you would like it to be or what you have thought it might be you will find it!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Greetings STH,

No Doubt Abraham had faith! We do well to recognize how important this is. In all of your meditations upon Abraham's faith do not discard what his faith was accompanied by;


Gen 26:5 KJV Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The question is; Are "Faith" and "Obedience" related?

For a moment, try not to consider faith as a "stand alone" dynamic of Righteousness.

You know that Jesus is;

Heb 12:2 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

No matter how many disputes you and I may have, we both take comfort in that one! :)

But we have to look at the caveats to our faith in verses like;

Heb 5:9 KJV And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, to all who "obey" Him. Well that doesn't really shoot down salvation for anyone, because He also said;

Php 2:13 KJV For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So is it us doing this? No! BUT WAIT. Don't forget the dynamic of our being! There's the New Creation/ Spiritual Man and the Old man Carnal man. So many of these verses do not address both aspects to our being! I like the old saying; We have two dogs fighting inside us; a White dog and a black dog! Which one wins the fight depends upon which one we feed the most!

If you feed the New Creation with Scripture reading and studying and obedience then the white dog is stronger and prevails, however if you do not Read the scriptures and study and do sinful acts then the black dog is stronger and prevails over the white dog. Not a perfect analogy but it gets to the point.

Our Heavenly Father gave us His scriptures in such a way that we could get any interpretation we sought out of them. This is part of the beauty of them really. He knows some men will seek answers they are looking for and some will seek the truth, no matter how hard or demanding! If you pray that He leads you away from error and to the truth and just push back away from any and every understanding you have and can honestly stay focused on the truth above personal desires for what you would like it to be or what you have thought it might be you will find it!
Let’s not forget Abraham’s numerous sins even the sin he did not immediately obey god to begin with, he was a sinner just like the rest of us who required gods grace his whole life
 
May 1, 2019
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I know. It's a problem. Those pesky passages. We should instead listen to men, not the scriptures, right? And yet when one tries to talk with persons about the scriptures they suddenly have to leave.

Greetings Y,

This is a suppliment to my earleir question: This is in regards to G4100 Pisteou; Note the B2 explaination. I had to cut off defs B4 ans C1 as it was more than 10000 characters I will send on another post.

Sincerely SG



Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary

Result 1- Obedience, Obedient, Obey
A. Nouns
  1. hupakoe
  2. hupotage
B. Verbs
  1. hupakouo
  2. peitho
  3. peitharcheo
  4. apeitheo
C. Adjective
  1. hupekoos
A1. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Noun] hupakoe "obedience" (hupo, "under," akouo, "to hear"), is used
(a) in general, Rom 6:16 (1st part), RV, "(unto) obedience," AV, "(to) obey;" here "obedience" is not personified, as in the next part of the verse, "servants ... of obedience" [see A1(c)], but is simply shown to be the effect of the presentation mentioned;
(b) of the fulfillment of apostolic counsels, 2 Cor 7:15; 2 Cor 10:6; Php 1:21;
(c) of the fulfillment of God's claims or commands, Rom 1:5; Rom 16:26, "obedience of faith," which grammatically might be objective, to the faith (marg.), or subjective, as in the text. Since faith is one of the main subjects of the Epistle, and is the initial act of obedience in the new life, as well as an essential characteristic thereof, the text rendering is to be preferred; Rom 6:16 (2nd part); Rom 15:18, RV "(for) the obedience," AV, "(to make) obedient;" Rom 16:19; 1 Pet 1:2,14, RV, "(children of) obedience," i.e., characterized by "obedience," AV, "obedient (children);" 1 Pet 1:22, RV, "obedience (to the truth)," AV, "obeying (the truth);"
(d) of "obedience" to Christ (objective), 2 Cor 10:5;
(e) of Christ's "obedience," Rom 5:19 (referring to His death; cp. Php 2:8); Heb 5:8, which refers to His delighted experience in constant "obedience" to the Father's will (not to be understood in the sense that He learned to obey).
A2. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Noun] hupotage subjection (hupo, "under," tasso, "to order"), is translated "obedience" in 2 Cor 9:13, RV (AV, "subjection"). See SUBJECTION.
See also : hupotage
B1. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Verb] hupakouo "to listen, attend" (as in Acts 12:13), and so, "to submit, to obey," is used of "obedience"
(a) to God Heb 5:9; Heb 11:8;
(b) to Christ, by natural elements, Matt 8:27; Mark 1:27; Mark 4:41; Luke 8:25;
(c) to disciples of Christ, Luke 17:6;
(d) to the faith, Acts 6:7; the Gospel, Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; Christian doctrine, Rom 6:17 (as to a form or mold of teaching);
(e) to apostolic injunctions, Php 2:12; 2 Thess 3:14;
(f) to Abraham by Sarah, 1 Pet 3:6;
(g) to parents by children, Eph 6:1; Col 3:20;
(h) to masters by servants, Eph 6:5; Col 3:22;
(i) to sin, Rom 6:12;
(j) in general, Rom 6:16.
B2. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Verb] peitho "to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36-37 (in Acts 5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom 2:8; Gal 5:7; Heb 13:17; James 3:3. The "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.
"Peitho and pisteuo" 'to trust,' are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter, cp. Heb 3:18,19, where the disobedience of the Israelites is said to be the evidence of their unbelief. Faith is of the heart, invisible to men; obedience is of the conduct and may be observed. When a man obeys God he gives the only possible evidence that in his heart he believes God. Of course it is persuasion of the truth that results in faith (we believe because we are persuaded that the thing is true, a thing does not become true because it is believed), but peitho, in NT suggests an actual and outward result of the inward persuasion and consequent faith." [ From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 254,255.] See peitho under ASSURANCE.
See also : peitho
B3. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Verb] peitharcheo "to obey one in authority" (peitho, and arche, "rule"), is translated "obey" in Acts 5:29,32; "to be obedient," Titus 3:1, RV (AV, "to obey magistrates"); in Acts 27:21, "hearkened." See HEARKEN.
See also : peitharcheo
 
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I know. It's a problem. Those pesky passages. We should instead listen to men, not the scriptures, right? And yet when one tries to talk with persons about the scriptures they suddenly have to leave.

Here are the last 2 defs that wouldn't fit on my previous post;

B4. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Verb] apeitheo "to disobey, be disobedient" (a, negative, and peitho), is translated "obey not" in Rom 2:8; 1 Pet 3:1; 1 Pet 4:17. See DISOBEDIENT.
Note: In 1 Cor 14:34, AV, hupotasso, "to be in subjection" (RV), is translated "to be under obedience;" so Titus 2:5, RV, "being in subjection" (AV, "obedient"); and Titus 2:9, RV (AV, "to be obedient"). See SUBJECTION.
See also : apeitheo
C1. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Adjective] hupekoos "obedient" (akin to hupakoe), "giving ear, subject," occurs in Acts 7:39, RV, "(would not be) obedient," AV, "(would not) obey;" 2 Cor 2:9; Php 2:8, where the RV "even" is useful as making clear that the "obedience" was not to death but to the Father.
1
Click any letter to display an alphabetized index of Biblical terms:
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Let’s not forget Abraham’s numerous sins even the sin he did not immediately obey god to begin with, he was a sinner just like the rest of us who required gods grace his whole life
God does not demand perfection, just following and atoning for failure and its recognition.
Everyday the priest would off atoning sacrifices for sin for Israel, every day without fail, morning
and evening. God provided a way that the lost can find Him, he has done literally everything possible
to bring flawed fallen man back to a Holy loving God.

And what is staggering even with these truths, still believers stand and compromise with sinful
behaviour, refuse to repent or work things through and believe they can see God and His ways with
an impure heart and a proud distorted heart, which is hard and cruel, has little empathy or care,
that hurts others and then turns away like they have done nothing.

So an innocent young lamb says I love Jesus and want to follow Him, obey and do His will.
The response is "You legalist, you judaizer, doomed to hell and leading others there"

Their hearts are so hard they have no idea how totally destroying these words are, the worst anyone
who has come to Christ can here, because if true, all their experiences are false and they need a different
salvation and walk. Jesus pronounced a curse on this kind of behaviour

5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.
6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"
Matt 18

The problem is sensitivity has gone, almost totally, and knowing the precious life of those
that are in our hands. It is why the people of God listen, wait, learn, are patient, kind, considerate
and want to know how they can help and where. It is the trait of all who I empathise with and
their hearts intention. It is this that I sincerely thank the Lord for and know His will and ways
are truly good and gracious, no matter how much the enemy hates them, nothing can touch His
elect, Amen.
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
God does not demand perfection, just following and atoning for failure and its recognition.
Everyday the priest would off atoning sacrifices for sin for Israel, every day without fail, morning
and evening. God provided a way that the lost can find Him, he has done literally everything possible
to bring flawed fallen man back to a Holy loving God.

And what is staggering even with these truths, still believers stand and compromise with sinful
behaviour, refuse to repent or work things through and believe they can see God and His ways with
an impure heart and a proud distorted heart, which is hard and cruel, has little empathy or care,
that hurts others and then turns away like they have done nothing.

So an innocent young lamb says I love Jesus and want to follow Him, obey and do His will.
The response is "You legalist, you judaizer, doomed to hell and leading others there"

Their hearts are so hard they have no idea how totally destroying these words are, the worst anyone
who has come to Christ can here, because if true, all their experiences are false and they need a different
salvation and walk. Jesus pronounced a curse on this kind of behaviour

5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.
6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"
Matt 18

The problem is sensitivity has gone, almost totally, and knowing the precious life of those
that are in our hands. It is why the people of God listen, wait, learn, are patient, kind, considerate
and want to know how they can help and where. It is the trait of all who I empathise with and
their hearts intention. It is this that I sincerely thank the Lord for and know His will and ways
are truly good and gracious, no matter how much the enemy hates them, nothing can touch His
elect, Amen.


Good Morning FHS,

In the verse where you quoted Jesus;

Mat 18:6 KJV But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

There is a fascinating dynamic to that Greek word Jesus uses, "pisteou"

Here's the Vines Greek Dictionary def that applies:

B2. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Verb] peitho "to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36-37 (in Acts 5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom 2:8; Gal 5:7; Heb 13:17; James 3:3. The "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.
"Peitho and pisteuo" 'to trust,' are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter, cp. Heb 3:18,19, where the disobedience of the Israelites is said to be the evidence of their unbelief. Faith is of the heart, invisible to men; obedience is of the conduct and may be observed. When a man obeys God he gives the only possible evidence that in his heart he believes God. Of course it is persuasion of the truth that results in faith (we believe because we are persuaded that the thing is true, a thing does not become true because it is believed), but peitho, in NT suggests an actual and outward result of the inward persuasion and consequent faith." [ From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 254,255.] See peitho under ASSURANCE.


The takeaway is that "unbelief" implies disobedience and "Belief/Believe" implies obedience/obey.

If I come up to you in the post office parking lot with a roll of paper towels and a bottle of windex as say; "Give me a dollar and I will wash your windows" you might size up my intent based on perhaps seeing me wash the car windows next of you and give me a dollar while you go inside and tend to your business. You complied with or obeyed my request for a dollar based upon your belief. But if I just walked up to you without any paper towels or windex from a seated postion on a curb and made the same request, you might not comply with or obey my request for a dollar due to your "unbelief". My actions either gave you faith to believe of didn't. If you were hard hearted you might not have believed either way! That was Israels problem;

Heb 3:15-19 KJV While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
 
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God does not demand perfection, just following and atoning for failure and its recognition.
Everyday the priest would off atoning sacrifices for sin for Israel, every day without fail, morning
and evening. God provided a way that the lost can find Him, he has done literally everything possible
to bring flawed fallen man back to a Holy loving God.

And what is staggering even with these truths, still believers stand and compromise with sinful
behaviour, refuse to repent or work things through and believe they can see God and His ways with
an impure heart and a proud distorted heart, which is hard and cruel, has little empathy or care,
that hurts others and then turns away like they have done nothing.

So an innocent young lamb says I love Jesus and want to follow Him, obey and do His will.
The response is "You legalist, you judaizer, doomed to hell and leading others there"

Their hearts are so hard they have no idea how totally destroying these words are, the worst anyone
who has come to Christ can here, because if true, all their experiences are false and they need a different
salvation and walk. Jesus pronounced a curse on this kind of behaviour

5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.
6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"
Matt 18

The problem is sensitivity has gone, almost totally, and knowing the precious life of those
that are in our hands. It is why the people of God listen, wait, learn, are patient, kind, considerate
and want to know how they can help and where. It is the trait of all who I empathise with and
their hearts intention. It is this that I sincerely thank the Lord for and know His will and ways
are truly good and gracious, no matter how much the enemy hates them, nothing can touch His
elect, Amen.

This is a great place to add Abrahams act of "Faith" in God to Kill Isaac required and "act of obedience" And what an act of Faith that was! Seriously! Your only son, one of practically a miracle birth! One from whom the promise of nations would come and now you are to kill him! Hey, Abraham didn't harden His heart! This touched the heart of God! Abraham was deemed the father of faith and even better! A FRIEND OF GOD! That ought to bring a tear to your eyes! Abraham, DID NOT HARDEN HIS HEART! How beautiful an example! What would have been Abrahams expression of Not Beleiving? Not Obeying Gods request of course! But we have the standard in Abraham; Trust God, Harden not your hearts/FAITH, so Obey Him/Obedience, the expression of FAITH/Believing!
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,597
624
113
Greetings Y,

I know you have looked at this, just a few verses with the Definitions. Leave a couple questions. I would appreciate your take on the words in question.

Thanks

SG

Joh 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:16 KJV+ ForG1063 GodG2316 soG3779 lovedG25 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG5620 he gaveG1325 hisG848 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 inG1519 himG846 should notG3361 perish,G622 butG235 haveG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222


G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4102
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849
Total KJV Occurrences: 250




Joh 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 3:36 KJV+ He that believethG4100 onG1519 theG3588 SonG5207 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life:G2222 andG1161 he that believethG544 not theG3588 SonG5207 shall notG3756 seeG3700 life;G2222 butG235 theG3588 wrathG3709 of GodG2316 abidethG3306 onG1909 him.G846

G544
ἀπειθέω
apeitheō
Thayer Definition:
1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G545
Citing in TDNT: 6:10, 818
Total KJV Occurrences: 16

Strongs:

G544
ἀπειθέω
apeitheō
ap-i-theh'-o
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.


Jas 2:19 KJV+ ThouG4771 believestG4100 thatG3754 there isG2076 oneG1520 God;G2316 thou doestG4160 well:G2573 theG3588 devilsG1140 alsoG2532 believe,G4100 andG2532 tremble.G5425
What I try to remember when studying Greek words and phrases is that these writers were still Hebrews who thought with Hebrew minds. So there should always be a Hebrew word or phrase that's either an equivalent (or better) word to use for the Greek that will help with understanding the thought.

...that's not to say the Greek fails, because many times it's very accurate. But being able to reach back into the Hebrew adds further confirmation of what the Greek is saying (like in the case of the Greek word used for "belief").

"He that believes..."

Based on the language of how the greek word for belief is used, and based on the other statements the Messiah has said, I think the best Hebrew equivalent is "shema" which means "to hear and to obey/respond accordingly", as in "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me".

The Messiah had a grievance against certain people. He said, "why do you call me Lord Lord and yet do not do what I say?" So these people called him "master" but didn't follow his instructions.

Hebrew concept of "believing" was always understood to be a dual action of hearing (i.e. trusting and accepting what the person says as truth) and then obeying to confirm that truth by following their words or instructions ("faith without works/action is dead").

We see this lived out through Abraham. We are told as a truth that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness...but his faith wasn't simply a mental assent (as our modern understanding of "belief" comes to mean)...he took action by obeying.

"Abraham, get your stuff and leave your home. I'm going to give you your own land." ...so Abraham obeyed and went.

"Abraham, sacrifice your own son Isaac." ...so Abraham obeyed, only stopping because Yah stopped him.

There is no belief without the appropriate action of obeying. So we read...

Genesis 26:5 [Yah speaking to Isaac]
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Next, we see the opposite case proving this same truth. Israel was commanded to go into the promised land and defeat the giants...but after the 10/12 spies came back with a bad report Israel refused to obey in fear. Now notice what Yah says...

Numbers 14:11
The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?


James explains this dual relationship between belief/faith and obedience/action in the passage you shared:


James 2:19
"19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

James was writing to the twelve tribes scattered into the gentile world. Remember that the Northern Tribes never returned from captivity so they were fully assimilated into the world and had to be retaught these Hebrew principles.

So to believe in the Messiah (in John 3:16) is to hear his words & instructions and then to respond by doing them. So the meaning of the passage can also be safely rendered as follows:

John 3:16 [brackets mine]
"For God so loved the world that he gave is only begotten son, that whosoever [hears and obeys his words] shall not perish but have everlasting life."

This rendering is supported by the promise of the Messiah in Deuteronomy 18:18-19

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken [SHEMA #8085] unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life.


So to believe in Christ foreverlasting life is to hear and obey His words.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,597
624
113
Here are the last 2 defs that wouldn't fit on my previous post;

B4. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Verb] apeitheo "to disobey, be disobedient" (a, negative, and peitho), is translated "obey not" in Rom 2:8; 1 Pet 3:1; 1 Pet 4:17. See DISOBEDIENT.
Note: In 1 Cor 14:34, AV, hupotasso, "to be in subjection" (RV), is translated "to be under obedience;" so Titus 2:5, RV, "being in subjection" (AV, "obedient"); and Titus 2:9, RV (AV, "to be obedient"). See SUBJECTION.
See also : apeitheo


C1. Obedience, Obedient, Obey [Adjective] hupekoos "obedient" (akin to hupakoe), "giving ear, subject," occurs in Acts 7:39, RV, "(would not be) obedient," AV, "(would not) obey;" 2 Cor 2:9; Php 2:8, where the RV "even" is useful as making clear that the "obedience" was not to death but to the Father.


1
Click any letter to display an alphabetized index of Biblical terms:
Looks like I should've read through the thread before posting since you cover the subject quite completely lol
 
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What I try to remember when studying Greek words and phrases is that these writers were still Hebrews who thought with Hebrew minds. So there should always be a Hebrew word or phrase that's either an equivalent (or better) word to use for the Greek that will help with understanding the thought.

...that's not to say the Greek fails, because many times it's very accurate. But being able to reach back into the Hebrew adds further confirmation of what the Greek is saying (like in the case of the Greek word used for "belief").

"He that believes..."

Based on the language of how the greek word for belief is used, and based on the other statements the Messiah has said, I think the best Hebrew equivalent is "shema" which means "to hear and to obey/respond accordingly", as in "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me".

The Messiah had a grievance against certain people. He said, "why do you call me Lord Lord and yet do not do what I say?" So these people called him "master" but didn't follow his instructions.

Hebrew concept of "believing" was always understood to be a dual action of hearing (i.e. trusting and accepting what the person says as truth) and then obeying to confirm that truth by following their words or instructions ("faith without works/action is dead").

We see this lived out through Abraham. We are told as a truth that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness...but his faith wasn't simply a mental assent (as our modern understanding of "belief" comes to mean)...he took action by obeying.

"Abraham, get your stuff and leave your home. I'm going to give you your own land." ...so Abraham obeyed and went.

"Abraham, sacrifice your own son Isaac." ...so Abraham obeyed, only stopping because Yah stopped him.

There is no belief without the appropriate action of obeying. So we read...

Genesis 26:5 [Yah speaking to Isaac]
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Next, we see the opposite case proving this same truth. Israel was commanded to go into the promised land and defeat the giants...but after the 10/12 spies came back with a bad report Israel refused to obey in fear. Now notice what Yah says...

Numbers 14:11
The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?


James explains this dual relationship between belief/faith and obedience/action in the passage you shared:


James 2:19
"19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

James was writing to the twelve tribes scattered into the gentile world. Remember that the Northern Tribes never returned from captivity so they were fully assimilated into the world and had to be retaught these Hebrew principles.

So to believe in the Messiah (in John 3:16) is to hear his words & instructions and then to respond by doing them. So the meaning of the passage can also be safely rendered as follows:

John 3:16 [brackets mine]
"For God so loved the world that he gave is only begotten son, that whosoever [hears and obeys his words] shall not perish but have everlasting life."

This rendering is supported by the promise of the Messiah in Deuteronomy 18:18-19

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken [SHEMA #8085] unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life.


So to believe in Christ foreverlasting life is to hear and obey His words.

BEAUTIFUL! Thank You. :)
 
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Looks like I should've read through the thread before posting since you cover the subject quite completely lol

No, the timing worked out Brother!

We have done better to now have your insights!

Really, Bless our Creator for the Hearts and minds He gives us!

As the last words of the poem below proclaims!;

Search Me


Search me, O God, my actions try,
And let my life appear
As seen by Thine all-searching eye—
To mine my ways make clear.

· Search all my sense, and know my heart
Who only canst make known,
And let the deep, the hidden part
To me be fully shown.

· Throw light into the darkened cells,
Where passion reigns within;
Quicken my conscience till it feels
The loathsomeness of sin.

· Search all my thoughts, the secret springs,
The motives that control;
The chambers where polluted things
Hold empire o'er the soul.

· Search, till Thy fiery glance has cast
Its holy light through all,
And I by grace am brought at last
Before Thy face to fall.

· Thus prostrate I shall learn of Thee,
What now I feebly prove,
That God alone in Christ can be
Unutterable love.

F. Bottome

There's an expression of Faith and Belief!