Did the Holy Spirit Literally descend on Jesus in bodily form at his Baptism

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Dec 19, 2009
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#1
I have discussed this subject on two Christian websites. Some do not believe the Holy Spirit literally descended on Christ at his Baptism, they say it was symbolic, but where is it said in scripture that it was only a symbolic act?

When all the people were being baptised, Jesus was baptised too
And as he was praying Heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove
Luke 3:21&22

Then John gave this testimony
I saw the spiirit come down from Heaven as a dove and remain on him
I would not have known him except that the one who sent me to baptise with water told me
'The man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptise with the Holy Spirit
I have seen and I testify that this is the son of God
John 1:32-34

Some say that the spirit descending on Christ was not an actual event that took place, but a sign for John to know he was the Chtist. Would the above verses support such a view?

For the one whom God has sent speaks the word of God, for God gives the spirit without limit.
John 3:34
Would this verse not suggest that it was through the spirit being upon Christ without limit/in bodily form that he was enabled to speak the words of God?

Jesus did not begin his public ministry until after the spirit had descended on him in bodily form. As soon as this event had taken place scripture says

Jesus full of the Holy Spirit returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert
Luke 4:1

After Christ had been in the wilderness and tempted by satan scripture says

Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit
Luke 4:14

The words I say to you are not my own. Rather it is the Father living in me who is doing his work
Believe me when I say I am in the Father and the Father is in me OR AT LEAST BELIEVE ON THE EVIDENCE OF THE MIRACLES THEMSELVES
John 14:10&11

And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said
He is possessed by Beelzebub, by the prince of demons he is casting out demons
Mark 3:22

Aftyer speaking of a house that being divided cannot stand Jesus said

I tell you the truth, all the blasphemies of men will be forgiven. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, he is guilty of an eternal sin
He said this because they said he had an evil spirit
Mark 3:28&29

Christ acknowledged the miracles done were by the power of the Holy Spirit
John said Christ spoke the words of God for God gave him the spirit without limit
Christ did not begin his public ministry until the spirit had come on him in bodily form
Scriptrure does not say this event was symbolic but speaks of an actual event.
After the spirit had come iupon Christ in bodily form he began his public ministry and lived in the POWER of the Spirit

So why do so many believe it was not an event that literally happened, just symbolic or as a sign for John?

What do you think?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#2
HI LBG,

The key word here is ''LIKE'' it is a similie.
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#3
HI LBG,

The key word here is ''LIKE'' it is a similie.
And I see in my mind the three persons of the Trinity sitting down ar a great conference table before the formation of the earth ever took place. God the Holy Father gave the others the news that even though he would create men to have fellowship with him, that man would sin-and break that relationship. The only way fellowship could be restored would be for someone to pay the price for that sin. For if another did not pay it then man himself would have to continue to pay the price in unhappiness, disease, death and eventual hell.
After the Holy Father had finished sharing his son Jesus spoke up and said. '
'I'll go. I'll take the form of a man and go down tio earth to pay that price. I'll be willing to die on a cross so that man can be restored to perfect fellowship with us.
Then Jesus turned to the Holy Spirit and said
'But I cannot go unless you go with me-for you are the one with the power.
The Holy Spirit responded and said
You go ahead. And when the time is right I shall join you on earth
So Jesus came to earth born in a manger, and grew to manhood. But even though he was the very son of God, he was powerless. Then came that magnificent moment at the river Jordan when Jesus coming up out of the Baptismal waters, looked up and saw the Holy Spirit descending on him in the form of a dove. It must have been one of the greatest thrills Jesus received as he walked in the flesh on this earth. And I can almost hear the Holy Spirit whisper in his ear
'I'm here now. We're running right on schedule. Now things will really happen.
And they did happen. Filled with the Spirit, he was suddenly empowered to heal the sick, cause the blind to see, even raise the dead. It was the time for miracles. For three years they continued and then, at the end, the Bibnle says He gave up the Ghost and the spirit returned to the Holy Father
After Jesus was in the grave for three days that mighty third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit returned. Jesus came out of the grave in a glorified body. He performed no more miracles during the short time he was here, bjut he gave his followers a great promise-the greatest promise of all the Bible. He said that same Holy S;pirit that lived in him would return to live in all those who opened their lives to his power. The same things that he, Jesus had done, His followers would do also. In fact even greater things would be done because now the Holy Spirit would not be limited to one body-but wiould be free to enter all those everywhere who would receive him
Kathryn paused, she had never preacherd like that before. It was a new revelation. A new truth, yet it came straight from the Bible. She was shaking as she continued.
The last words he said befpore he went away were
And ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.
God the Father had given him the gift. Now he was passing it on to the church. Every church should be experiancing the miracles of Pentecost. Every church should be seeing the healings of the book of Acts. The gift is for all of us.



This is taken from the biography of Kathryn Khulmans life by Jamie Buckingham

The next night she returned to preach in the same building. A woman asked if she could speak
She said that while KK had been preaching the previous night she had been healed of a tumor. She went to the doctor that morning and had it verified.

This was the begining of the miracles in KK services
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#4
What was happening at Jesus' baptism? although Katherine khulman gives a fanciful tale of The Godhead sitting around drinking coffee, it does not give significance to what God was doing in history. In fact if you read her stroy very very very careful you will see she is trying to give credibility to her own min istry using the anolgy of the baptism scene.

Kathryn khulman, like Benny Hinn have had many revelations and interestingly they claim they come direct from scripture, but careful reading shows it is a twisting of scriputre.

But as I say read what you have posted very very carefully, and think about what she is ACTUALLY saying!!!she is saying she is 'like' Jesus because of the Holy Spirit she had the same experience... now this is most certainly not scriptural truth ...why?

Because here Jesus is identifying himself with mankind, for His missional role as mediator and High priest. Kathryn khulman, you or me certainly are NOT!
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
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#5
What was happening at Jesus' baptism? although Katherine khulman gives a fanciful tale of The Godhead sitting around drinking coffee, it does not give significance to what God was doing in history. In fact if you read her stroy very very very careful you will see she is trying to give credibility to her own min istry using the anolgy of the baptism scene.

Kathryn khulman, like Benny Hinn have had many revelations and interestingly they claim they come direct from scripture, but careful reading shows it is a twisting of scriputre.

But as I say read what you have posted very very carefully, and think about what she is ACTUALLY saying!!!she is saying she is 'like' Jesus because of the Holy Spirit she had the same experience... now this is most certainly not scriptural truth ...why?

Because here Jesus is identifying himself with mankind, for His missional role as mediator and High priest. Kathryn khulman, you or me certainly are NOT!
This is the reply I expected Phil

KK gave up her whole life in the service of God, she gave eventually EVERYTHING to God. Many of the most well known ministers in the US were only to happy to sit and learn as she preached the word

Tremendous miracles(that were medically verified) were seen in her services

Can you say the same for your ministry?
Have you in your heart given up EVERYTHING for God, I admit I have not.

I am seeing a clear picture here. So many in vanity come on these websites believing in pride they have a great understanding of scripture(an overbloated belief IMO) They have great understanding of the Bible and feel free to criticise and know better than those who gave up everything for God and saw tremendous power in their services.

But tragically, so many pin everything on a 'head theology'

Well can I tell you, God wants the heart, not just the 'head'

But the vanity of man(or women) on many Christian chat sites is mind boggling for me to see

When you are a well known preacher/teacher Phil and God's powerful annointing is seen to be on you by the evidence of what follows I will gladly humble myself before the words you speak and take note

But I will not be led by the human ego of others, or those that are primarily on this and other websites to extol themselves firstly with so called superior knowledge, rather than firstly seek to extol the God who loved them so much that He sent his son to die for them
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#6
This is the reply I expected Phil

KK gave up her whole life in the service of God, she gave eventually EVERYTHING tpo God. Many of the most well known ministers in the US were only to happy to sit and learn as she preached the word

Tremendous miracles(that were medically verified) were seen in her services

Can you say the same for your ministry?
Have yuoiu in your heart given up EVERYTHING for God, I admit I have not.

I am seeing a clear picture here. So many in vanity come on these websites believing in pride they have a great understanding of scripture(an overbloated belief IMO) They have great understanding of the Bible and feel free to criticise and know better than those who gave up everything for God and saw tremendous power in their services.

But tragically, so many pin everything on a 'head theology'

Well can I tell you, God wants the heart, not just the 'head'

But the vanity of man(or women) on many Christian chat sites is mind boggling for me to see

When you are a well known preacher/teacher Phil and God's powerful annointing is seen to be on you by the evidence of what follows I will gladly humble myself before the words you speak and take note

But I will not be led the human ego of others, or those that are primarily on this and other websites to extol themselves firstly with so called superior knowledge, rather than firstly seek to extol the God who loved them so much that He sent his son to die for them

As I say, read very carefully what you posted about what Kathryn khulman said.

she is trying to give credibility to her ministry, by identifying her experince with that of Jesus' baptism.

The most important part here, and believe me it is important. Jesus being baptized was his identifying with humanity as the last Adam, this was the identification with man to be the unblemished sacrifice, to die a gruesome death, to feel seperation from God, the penalty we all deserve.

And yet, here we have Kathryn Khulman trying to allude that the Holy Spirit landed on here in the same way! this is nonsense, she is not the God-man, she is not the unblemished sacrifice for humankind, she is not the the mediator for mankind and she is not the High priest.

Kathryn and here faith/spiritualist healers all suffer from the same illusionament of grandeur.

Remember also, evil masquarades as light and can heal also, evil can do signs and wonders and make people think it is of the one true God, thats all Im saying.
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
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#7
As I say, read very carefully what you posted about what Kathryn khulman said.

she is trying to give credibility to her ministry, by identifying her experince with that of Jesus' baptism.

The most important part here, and believe me it is important. Jesus being baptized was his identifying with humanity as the last Adam, this was the identification with man to be the unblemished sacrifice, to die a gruesome death, to feel seperation from God, the penalty we all deserve.

And yet, here we have Kathryn Khulman trying to allude that the Holy Spirit landed on here in the same way! this is nonsense, she is not the God-man, she is not the unblemished sacrifice for humankind, she is not the the mediator for mankind and she is not the High priest.

Kathryn and here faith/spiritualist healers all suffer from the same illusionament of grandeur.

Remember also, evil masquarades as light and can heal also, evil can do signs and wonders and make people think it is of the one true God, thats all Im saying.
Well obviously you know more than KK did on as spiritual level. Therefore you must also know more than the ministers who sat and learned from her preaching. In that case, why are you not a minister, renowned for your Biblical knowledge and teaching?

Mans main problem is pride and his own ego

So Phil, the miracles in KK services (and they were medically verified) must have been of the Holy Spirit or of satan
I would be very careful before you publically say which you believe IMO

Sorry Phil, but I do not feel you are such an authority on the word of God that I must put your opinions before someone who was so annointed of God

It is easy for people to sit behind their computer screens with their over inflated ego trying to teach the truth of God's word to others.

So lets see how much you can answer yourself in God's word

But about the son He(the Father) says
Your throne O God will last forever and ever
and righteousness will be a sceptre of your kinmgdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has SET YOU ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS AND ANNOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF JOY
Heb 1:8&9

Those verses clearly state that the Father set the son above his companions. So, if Christ is the one true God, what was his position BEFORE HE WAS SET ABOVE HIS COMPANIONS, surely he must have been equal to them
Do you believe that God Himself could only be equal to his companions?

We can all say anything. If you can answer a series of questions WITHOUT EVASION that I put to you I will believe you have much spiritual knowledge and truth, if you do not and ignore them or use excuses not to answer I will not believe you have much spiritual knowledge.
I believe that is fair
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
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#8
Well obviously you know more than KK did on as spiritual level. Therefore you must also know more than the ministers who sat and learned from her preaching. In that case, why are you not a minister, renowned for your Biblical knowledge and teaching?

Mans main problem is pride and his own ego

So Phil, the miracles in KK services (and they were medically verified) must have been of the Holy Spirit or of satan
I would be very careful before you publically say which you believe IMO

Sorry Phil, but I do not feel you are such an authority on the word of God that I must put your opinions before someone who was so annointed of God

It is easy for people to sit behind their computer screens with their over inflated ego trying to teach the truth of God's word to others.

So lets see how much you can answer yourself in God's word

But about the son He(the Father) says
Your throne O God will last forever and ever
and righteousness will be a sceptre of your kinmgdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has SET YOU ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS AND ANNOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF JOY
Heb 1:8&9

Those verses clearly state that the Father set the son above his companions. So, if Christ is the one true God, what was his position BEFORE HE WAS SET ABOVE HIS COMPANIONS, surely he must have been equal to them
Do you believe that God Himself could only be equal to his companions?

We can all say anything. If you can answer a series of questions WITHOUT EVASION that I put to you I will believe you have much spiritual knowledge and truth, if you do not and ignore them or use excuses not to answer I will not believe you have much spiritual knowledge.
I believe that is fair


JYou started your post about the Baptism of Jesus, then went into some propoganda for Kathryn Khulman.

As I said evil can do signs and wonders also. now you tell me which is of the God and which is of evil?

Regarding your post, Kathryn is using the baptism of Jesus to give credibilty to her ministry, However, as I have explained, she is not the saviour of the world. so there is the starting point. Just because some becaome fooled doesnt make it true, it doesnt matter wether they are ministers, mechanics, cooks.

Test all the Spirit... are they of God????????? Evil can masquarade as light, and it most certainly does.

Now, you tell me How do you know which is which...where do you go for truth???
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
I have discussed this subject on two Christian websites. Some do not believe the Holy Spirit literally descended on Christ at his Baptism, they say it was symbolic, but where is it said in scripture that it was only a symbolic act?

When all the people were being baptised, Jesus was baptised too
And as he was praying Heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove
Luke 3:21&22

Then John gave this testimony
I saw the spiirit come down from Heaven as a dove and remain on him
I would not have known him except that the one who sent me to baptise with water told me
'The man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptise with the Holy Spirit
I have seen and I testify that this is the son of God
John 1:32-34

Some say that the spirit descending on Christ was not an actual event that took place, but a sign for John to know he was the Chtist. Would the above verses support such a view?

For the one whom God has sent speaks the word of God, for God gives the spirit without limit.
John 3:34
Would this verse not suggest that it was through the spirit being upon Christ without limit/in bodily form that he was enabled to speak the words of God?

Jesus did not begin his public ministry until after the spirit had descended on him in bodily form. As soon as this event had taken place scripture says

Jesus full of the Holy Spirit returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert
Luke 4:1

After Christ had been in the wilderness and tempted by satan scripture says

Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit
Luke 4:14

The words I say to you are not my own. Rather it is the Father living in me who is doing his work
Believe me when I say I am in the Father and the Father is in me OR AT LEAST BELIEVE ON THE EVIDENCE OF THE MIRACLES THEMSELVES
John 14:10&11

And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said
He is possessed by Beelzebub, by the prince of demons he is casting out demons
Mark 3:22

Aftyer speaking of a house that being divided cannot stand Jesus said

I tell you the truth, all the blasphemies of men will be forgiven. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, he is guilty of an eternal sin
He said this because they said he had an evil spirit
Mark 3:28&29

Christ acknowledged the miracles done were by the power of the Holy Spirit
John said Christ spoke the words of God for God gave him the spirit without limit
Christ did not begin his public ministry until the spirit had come on him in bodily form
Scriptrure does not say this event was symbolic but speaks of an actual event.
After the spirit had come iupon Christ in bodily form he began his public ministry and lived in the POWER of the Spirit

So why do so many believe it was not an event that literally happened, just symbolic or as a sign for John?

What do you think?
It was a literal event. But it was also symbolic for John (this is the reason I came to baptize) Much like when Moses washed Aaron and his sons in front of the children of Israel to show who God chose to be high priest, and priests to them.

Not sure why people say it is one or the other. It was both.
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#10
It was a literal event. But it was also symbolic for John (this is the reason I came to baptize) Much like when Moses washed Aaron and his sons in front of the children of Israel to show who God chose to be high priest, and priests to them.

Not sure why people say it is one or the other. It was both.
Thank you EG for the truth
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#11
And I see in my mind the three persons of the Trinity sitting down ar a great conference table before the formation of the earth ever took place. God the Holy Father gave the others the news that even though he would create men to have fellowship with him, that man would sin-and break that relationship. The only way fellowship could be restored would be for someone to pay the price for that sin. For if another did not pay it then man himself would have to continue to pay the price in unhappiness, disease, death and eventual hell.
After the Holy Father had finished sharing his son Jesus spoke up and said. '
'I'll go. I'll take the form of a man and go down tio earth to pay that price. I'll be willing to die on a cross so that man can be restored to perfect fellowship with us.
Then Jesus turned to the Holy Spirit and said
'But I cannot go unless you go with me-for you are the one with the power.
The Holy Spirit responded and said
You go ahead. And when the time is right I shall join you on earth
So Jesus came to earth born in a manger, and grew to manhood. But even though he was the very son of God, he was powerless. Then came that magnificent moment at the river Jordan when Jesus coming up out of the Baptismal waters, looked up and saw the Holy Spirit descending on him in the form of a dove. It must have been one of the greatest thrills Jesus received as he walked in the flesh on this earth. And I can almost hear the Holy Spirit whisper in his ear
'I'm here now. We're running right on schedule. Now things will really happen.
And they did happen. Filled with the Spirit, he was suddenly empowered to heal the sick, cause the blind to see, even raise the dead. It was the time for miracles. For three years they continued and then, at the end, the Bibnle says He gave up the Ghost and the spirit returned to the Holy Father
After Jesus was in the grave for three days that mighty third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit returned. Jesus came out of the grave in a glorified body. He performed no more miracles during the short time he was here, bjut he gave his followers a great promise-the greatest promise of all the Bible. He said that same Holy S;pirit that lived in him would return to live in all those who opened their lives to his power. The same things that he, Jesus had done, His followers would do also. In fact even greater things would be done because now the Holy Spirit would not be limited to one body-but wiould be free to enter all those everywhere who would receive him
Kathryn paused, she had never preacherd like that before. It was a new revelation. A new truth, yet it came straight from the Bible. She was shaking as she continued.
The last words he said befpore he went away were
And ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.
God the Father had given him the gift. Now he was passing it on to the church. Every church should be experiancing the miracles of Pentecost. Every church should be seeing the healings of the book of Acts. The gift is for all of us.



This is taken from the biography of Kathryn Khulmans life by Jamie Buckingham

The next night she returned to preach in the same building. A woman asked if she could speak
She said that while KK had been preaching the previous night she had been healed of a tumor. She went to the doctor that morning and had it verified.

This was the begining of the miracles in KK services
Holy Scripture. "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted

to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn

something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to

speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 NKJV OSB; page 1569.

Apparently some people believe in KK more than they obey and believe and trust God

in Scripture through St. Paul 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Go figure. This is what happens when

you have a Protestant Reformation when it's every individual alone with "sola

Scriptura" the Bible alone, and no presence of the Church that gave us the Bible.

Go figure! Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
This is what happens when

you have a Protestant Reformation when it's every individual alone with "sola

Scriptura" the Bible alone, and no presence of the Church that gave us the Bible.

Go figure! Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
This is crazy. You don't think people did this even when the roman power ruled over the church and mankind? It might not have been open for fear of death, but it happened.

And the churhc did not give us the bible. GOD DID! why are you so quick to give men the credit for the work of God?
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#13
This is crazy. You don't think people did this even when the roman power ruled over the church and mankind? It might not have been open for fear of death, but it happened.

And the churhc did not give us the bible. GOD DID! why are you so quick to give men the credit for the work of God?
God gave the Church (Matt. 16:18) in Christ, Christ gave the world His 12 Apostles, and some of the 12 apostles gave the world the NT part of the whole Bible, together with the Old OT.
Why are you so quick to delete verses from your version of the NT? What is the "pillar and ground of the truth"? The Bible? No. The Bible says the "pillar and ground of the truth" is "the church of the living God" (1 Tim. 3:15). You profess to believe the NT Bible, but ignore what the NT says about the Church. Of course the Church wrote the Bible. God breathed in the souls of His apostles, and in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, the men of God wrote the NT. It wasn't descended directly from God, like the Muslims say the Kuran is. To Muslims, the Book, the Quran, is a divine incarnation of God in written form. For Christians, Christianity is not about a book; it's about Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh; and in His crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus saves. The NT does not save us. It tells us the truth about Jesus, and God uses the NT so that we can be saved by the blood of Jesus. In the Church.
Yes, the Church did give us the Bible. The Bible exists only because of the Church.
The true interpretation of the Church comes only from the Holy Spirit. And the HS leads us back to the Church of the living God (1 Tim. 3:15), not away from it.
And away from sola scriptura via private interpretations (cf. 2 Peter 3:16). Take care.
God bless you always. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#14
God gave the Church (Matt. 16:18) in Christ, Christ gave the world His 12 Apostles, and some of the 12 apostles gave the world the NT part of the whole Bible, together with the Old OT.
Why are you so quick to delete verses from your version of the NT? What is the "pillar and ground of the truth"? The Bible? No. The Bible says the "pillar and ground of the truth" is "the church of the living God" (1 Tim. 3:15). You profess to believe the NT Bible, but ignore what the NT says about the Church. Of course the Church wrote the Bible. God breathed in the souls of His apostles, and in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, the men of God wrote the NT. It wasn't descended directly from God, like the Muslims say the Kuran is. To Muslims, the Book, the Quran, is a divine incarnation of God in written form. For Christians, Christianity is not about a book; it's about Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh; and in His crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus saves. The NT does not save us. It tells us the truth about Jesus, and God uses the NT so that we can be saved by the blood of Jesus. In the Church.
Yes, the Church did give us the Bible. The Bible exists only because of the Church.
The true interpretation of the Church comes only from the Holy Spirit. And the HS leads us back to the Church of the living God (1 Tim. 3:15), not away from it.
And away from sola scriptura via private interpretations (cf. 2 Peter 3:16). Take care.
God bless you always. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
The OT existed withpout the Church, Jesus himself called it scripture. It was not given by the church. Scripture is called God's word. not the churhces word. God wrote it. God gave it to us (yes he inspired men, and yes those men in the NT was part of the church) but it is given by God.

The problem I have with you is your church gives all kinds of credit to men, and give none to God.

The NT does not tell us how to be saved? Thats funny according to Paul the OT tells us how to be saved (timothy did not have the NT as a child but he had knowledge enough given in scripture to be saved) If the OT tells us how to be saved. why is it hard to believe the NT does not tell us how?

Yes the HS does lead us to the church. The church will teach his Gospel, and his words as taken from his word ( the bible) written and given by him.

Sorry. But your own churhc has private intepretations, they are their interpretations. They do not line up with Gods word. Thus they are not from God.

Your church uses 2 peter 3: 16 as a scare tactic to keep people from readin the word. Much like many findamental churhces uses hellfire and brimstone to scare people. Your just can't see it
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#15
The OT existed withpout the Church, Jesus himself called it scripture. It was not given by the church. Scripture is called God's word. not the churhces word. God wrote it. God gave it to us (yes he inspired men, and yes those men in the NT was part of the church) but it is given by God.

The problem I have with you is your church gives all kinds of credit to men, and give none to God.

The NT does not tell us how to be saved? Thats funny according to Paul the OT tells us how to be saved (timothy did not have the NT as a child but he had knowledge enough given in scripture to be saved) If the OT tells us how to be saved. why is it hard to believe the NT does not tell us how?

Yes the HS does lead us to the church. The church will teach his Gospel, and his words as taken from his word ( the bible) written and given by him.

Sorry. But your own churhc has private intepretations, they are their interpretations. They do not line up with Gods word. Thus they are not from God.

Your church uses 2 peter 3: 16 as a scare tactic to keep people from readin the word. Much like many findamental churhces uses hellfire and brimstone to scare people. Your just can't see it
That is not true. All credit for right interpretation of Scripture goes to God. You have not shown anywhere that the OC (Orthodox Church) uses private interpretation, nor have you proven that what you say regarding the OC is not a private intepretation itself. You have not proven any interpretation of Scripture in the West among the Protestants is the same interpretation as the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers were the earliest Christians after the 12 apostles had gone on to be with the LORD. No. The OT did not exist without the Church. The OT was written by the people of God. The Church is the new people of God which expanded from being Jews only to being both Jews and Gentiles.
And no, I am not trying to scare you by quoting 2 Peter 3:16. I'm just saying that your interpretation is not necessarily correct, if it uses any of the various "solas" that the Protestant Reformation uses to scare people away from Rome. Protestants are scared of anything that reminds them of Roman Catholicism, and they tend to all things in terms of Roman Catholic error. Thus, if Eastern Orthodoxy reminds them of Roman Catholicism, they falsely think that Eastern Orthodoxy is the same thing as RC. It is not! There are many many issues where the OC differs significantly from the RCC. Rome has erred, and has placed many people in peril because of its papism, its Inquisitions, its Crusades, its heresy trials, its treatment of Galileo, its Aristotelianism and rationalism, its humanism, its quest for earthly power and an earthly kingdom, its superstitions, its mistakes regarding the Virgin Mary, its mistakes regarding the holy Eucharist and regarding its mistaken double procession of the Holy Spirit, and its mistaken theology of Augustinianism. Go figure. God save us all. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS The Orthodox Church does preach God's true Gospel. Many Protestants teach private interpretations and go astray in one or more ways.
The OT did not exist without the Church. The people of God were the OT equivalent of the Church; God was tutoring Israel, and Israel was the people God chose to bring Messiah into the world; the people of the Messiah already come into the world, Jesus Christ, were the people of all nations, not just the nation of Israel. The people of God were confined to Israel in the OT; they expanded in the NT to include all nations. Of course, even in the OT covenant, there were select few Gentiles who were among the people of God, who were converted to the faith of OT Israel, and thus were God's chosen elect people. God has always had His chosen among Jews and Gentiles; it's just that during the OT dispensation, most of God's activity was concentrated on Old Israel. Take care.

 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#16
The OT existed withpout the Church, Jesus himself called it scripture. It was not given by the church. Scripture is called God's word. not the churhces word. God wrote it. God gave it to us (yes he inspired men, and yes those men in the NT was part of the church) but it is given by God.

The problem I have with you is your church gives all kinds of credit to men, and give none to God.

The NT does not tell us how to be saved? Thats funny according to Paul the OT tells us how to be saved (timothy did not have the NT as a child but he had knowledge enough given in scripture to be saved) If the OT tells us how to be saved. why is it hard to believe the NT does not tell us how?

Yes the HS does lead us to the church. The church will teach his Gospel, and his words as taken from his word ( the bible) written and given by him.

Sorry. But your own churhc has private intepretations, they are their interpretations. They do not line up with Gods word. Thus they are not from God.

Your church uses 2 peter 3: 16 as a scare tactic to keep people from readin the word. Much like many findamental churhces uses hellfire and brimstone to scare people. Your just can't see it
Friend, I didn't say the NT doesn't tell us how to be saved. I said the NT does not save us. It is God who saves, using the NT in the Church. The words alone don't save, unless they are understood properly, and the NT can be misunderstood (2 Peter 3:16). We need the HS to inspire us in the proper understanding, and this comes in our contact and relationship to the community of faith, the Church (1 Tim. 3:15). We need to learn from Church members what the NT means. We need the historic Faith (Jude 3), not some faith derived in Germany and other Western nations after 1517 AD. Nor some faith derived from Filioque after 1014 AD. Nor the faith of the monophysitism. Take care. God bless you.

 
Dec 19, 2009
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JYou started your post about the Baptism of Jesus, then went into some propoganda for Kathryn Khulman.

As I said evil can do signs and wonders also. now you tell me which is of the God and which is of evil?

Well you tell me.
In KK services prostitutes were changed, her choir was mainly made up of ex alcoholics who had been healed, she demanded God was given ALL the glory for the healings and would accept no praise for herself. People worshipped together and praised God of all denominations. The healed went to their churches and testified of their healings and many more became Christians and joined local churches due to their testimony
Does that sound like sometrhing the devil would want to encourage to you

Regarding your post, Kathryn is using the baptism of Jesus to give credibilty to her ministry, However, as I have explained, she is not the saviour of the world. so there is the starting point. Just because some becaome fooled doesnt make it true, it doesnt matter wether they are ministers, mechanics, cooks.

You have not got a clue have you. No wonder so many churches are in the state they are today, weak and almost impotent, record numbers are leaving the established churches and by your own admittance the vast majority who do go come from the more intellectual half of society and the more affluent half of society.


Test all the Spirit... are they of God????????? Evil can masquarade as light, and it most certainly does.

So what do we say concerning a spirit that demands for salvation something that is not written in the Bible?



Now, you tell me How do you know which is which...where do you go for truth???
Where do you go for truth?

The spirit is truth and leads into truth. And the spirit is most receptive to someone who loves God and his son and will SACRIFICE for the work God would have them do

But many just want to be seen as great exponents of the Bible, seen by others as having great understanding and learning and to be looked up to and respected by others for it

They read up on theologians/scholars ever seeking but never learning. They hinge everything on striving to gain ever greater head knowledge, but so often it is of no use and just leads to a weak and feeble Christianity

But those who do sacrifice from the heart and are lopen to the Spirits power and love God and give him everythying from the heart are maligned by those who do not, and those who do not try to discrediit those who do, for they mainly have jealousy as to how God has used others.

There is POWER in the truth. Why does your church not see the power promised?

Do not criticise those who pay the price and stand on scritpure from the HEART, not the head
 
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Holy Scripture. "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted

to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn

something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to

speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 NKJV OSB; page 1569.

Apparently some people believe in KK more than they obey and believe and trust God

in Scripture through St. Paul 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Go figure. This is what happens when

you have a Protestant Reformation when it's every individual alone with "sola

Scriptura" the Bible alone, and no presence of the Church that gave us the Bible.

Go figure! Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Is God the same, yesterday today and forever?

Deborah a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth WAS LEADING ISRAEL at that time.
She held court under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim AND THE ISRAELITES CAME TO HER TO HAVE THEIR DISPUTES DECIDED
She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him
THE LORD THE GOD OF ISRAEL COMMANDS YOU. Go take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulen and lead the way to mt Tabor
Judges 4:4-6

Deborah commanded Barak according to the Lords will, so she was over him in ther Lord and settled disputes between the Israelites with the spiritual knowledge God gave her

God will use ANYONE who is willing to pay the price to do his work and spread the glorious message of the Gospel of grace
It would be better rather than to criticise according to the literal letter, to rejoice in the souls saved and the healings*(which were verified) that took place in those meetings. Be driven by love and rejoice for those changed and healed, not a judgemental attitude
God is a God of love, he is driven by love and in his love for others he used a woman who was prepared to pay the price

Can you say to God
You must not use a woman

God can and will use whomever he chooses to use
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#19
That is not true. All credit for right interpretation of Scripture goes to God. You have not shown anywhere that the OC (Orthodox Church) uses private interpretation, nor have you proven that what you say regarding the OC is not a private intepretation itself. You have not proven any interpretation of Scripture in the West among the Protestants is the same interpretation as the Church Fathers.


Well iunfortunately for you you have done nothing to prove that the orthodox fathyers have not made a private interpretation. Your only excuse is that they say they do. Sorry that is not a logical excuse. Thus all we have left is their interpretation vs ours. which one lines up with God. Do we study to see which one does. Or do we just take them at their word for it? Forgive me if I refuse to just take a mans word for it...

Your right it does God to God. He gave us ALL the Holy SPirit to teach US ALL things concerning him. It does not mean we or anyone else will listen to the HS and interpret correctly. This goes for your so called Fathers.

The Church Fathers were the earliest Christians after the 12 apostles had gone on to be with the LORD. No. The OT did not exist without the Church. The OT was written by the people of God. The Church is the new people of God which expanded from being Jews only to being both Jews and Gentiles.
There were Gentiles saved in the OT. They were ALL people of God. They just did not have the oracles of God, it was left to the jews. Yes God gave it to the church/. But the jews screwed it up. You want me to think men who claim to be the churhc could not make the same mistake as the Jews? Men are men. God will not force anyone to do anything, include interpret his word correctly.

And no, I am not trying to scare you by quoting 2 Peter 3:16.


Your not scaring me, Your the one who is scared. That is how the church keeps you under its wings. It scares you by saying you can not interpret the word yourself. whcih is a lie.

I'm just saying that your interpretation is not necessarily correct,


Niether is yours or your churches. Which is why we have to study ourselves to discover who is right and who is wrong. and not leave our eternity to men.

if it uses any of the various "solas" that the Protestant Reformation uses to scare people away from Rome. Protestants are scared of anything that reminds them of Roman Catholicism, and they tend to all things in terms of Roman Catholic error. Thus, if Eastern Orthodoxy reminds them of Roman Catholicism, they falsely think that Eastern Orthodoxy is the same thing as RC. It is not! There are many many issues where the OC differs significantly from the RCC. Rome has erred, and has placed many people in peril because of its papism, its Inquisitions, its Crusades, its heresy trials, its treatment of Galileo, its Aristotelianism and rationalism, its humanism, its quest for earthly power and an earthly kingdom, its superstitions, its mistakes regarding the Virgin Mary, its mistakes regarding the holy Eucharist and regarding its mistaken double procession of the Holy Spirit, and its mistaken theology of Augustinianism. Go figure. God save us all. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


I am not scared of Rome. I am not scared of orthodoxy. They can do nothing to me. It is them who use scare tactices such as we are discussing here to get people to listen to them and leave. I laugh that you think I am scared of little rome..

PS The Orthodox Church does preach God's true Gospel. Many Protestants teach private interpretations and go astray in one or more ways.
The OT did not exist without the Church. The people of God were the OT equivalent of the Church; God was tutoring Israel, and Israel was the people God chose to bring Messiah into the world; the people of the Messiah already come into the world, Jesus Christ, were the people of all nations, not just the nation of Israel. The people of God were confined to Israel in the OT; they expanded in the NT to include all nations. Of course, even in the OT covenant, there were select few Gentiles who were among the people of God, who were converted to the faith of OT Israel, and thus were God's chosen elect people. God has always had His chosen among Jews and Gentiles; it's just that during the OT dispensation, most of God's activity was concentrated on Old Israel. Take care.
Yeah, And ISrael screwed up. So did the church when men took it over and stopped giving credit to God and taking it for himself. Which your church does quite well.

And no the orthodox does not teach the correct Gospel. it teaches a false gospel of works. Trying to get people to earn salvation. Instead of recieveing the gift God came to give us all via grace.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
Friend, I didn't say the NT doesn't tell us how to be saved. I said the NT does not save us. It is God who saves, using the NT in the Church. The words alone don't save, unless they are understood properly, and the NT can be misunderstood (2 Peter 3:16). We need the HS to inspire us in the proper understanding, and this comes in our contact and relationship to the community of faith, the Church (1 Tim. 3:15). We need to learn from Church members what the NT means. We need the historic Faith (Jude 3), not some faith derived in Germany and other Western nations after 1517 AD. Nor some faith derived from Filioque after 1014 AD. Nor the faith of the monophysitism. Take care. God bless you.
well Scott, Scripture states we did not need the NT to know how to be saved. we had enough knowledge from the OT. which is not the church. So your whole theory is faulty.

The NT proved that the OT was true. We are saved the same way as OT saints. Who did not have a church, or baptism, or the eucharist or any of the other rules and regulations the roman churhc places as a requirement for salvation.