Dispensation, Dispensational, Dispensationalism, Dispensationalist

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LovePink

Deactivated upon user request
Dec 13, 2013
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#61
but - you are using dispnesationalist theologians opinions.

do you know who William Edwy Vine was:)

Note: A “dispensation” is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cf. oikonomos, “a steward,” and oikonomeô, “to be a steward.” (174)

- Vine's Expository Dictionary

No, I have never heard of this William.

I used Webster's dictionary for my definitions in op.

I have heard of some of the names you continue to toss around in your various posts about dispensationalist, but I can assure you I have never looked at any of the material by them, such as scolfeild, Ryrie, Bullinger (sp?) as a matter of fact not one name you have referenced across this entire board have I read one of their, books, papers or the like. I have been very guarded in my studying, so I can be honest in my approaching God & the Scriptures, it has not been easy, but so worth it.

Well, page three was disgusting to say the least. I am off to work, back tonight. Btw, I do not discuss prophesy, for the simple fact, I have yet to approach it in my personal study, other than I do reject ammilinial view by my own study I came to this August 2012.
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
58
0
#62
Sigh..........

The events of 1 Thessalonians 4 have not happened yet.
The events of Revelation 20 have not happened yet.

Sarasara, why do you work so hard to believe that Revelation 13 is historically proving your case of those events having happened :confused:


Have you seen an army of Satan's as widespread and multitudinous as 'the sands of the seashore' rise up to encompass 'God's people,' as Revelation 20 purports/reveals, and, ohzone, that is WHY we can hold the book of Revelation in our hand (along with the rest of the bible), it's a FOREcast of things to come.

The great events of Revelation 20 most definitely have NOT happened yet:

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


No. And, 1 Thessalonians 4 is painfully clear to those who want to salve their doctrine with untruths of The Rapture's way of SOMEDAY taking place, it's NOT yet happened, this is a different time of being 'caught up' in the sky comparative to God bringing down 'fire from heaven to devour them.' Totally different time periods. :) Totally :D
 
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Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#63
Sigh..........

The events of 1 Thessalonians 4 have not happened yet.
The events of Revelation 20 have not happened yet.

Sarasara, why do you work so hard to believe that Revelation 13 is historically proving your case of those events having happened :confused:


Have you seen an army of Satan's as widespread and multitudinous as 'the sands of the seashore' rise up to encompass 'God's people,' as Revelation 20 purports/reveals, and, ohzone, that is WHY we can hold the book of Revelation in our hand (along with the rest of the bible), it's a FOREcast of things to come.

The great events of Revelation 20 most definitely have NOT happened yet:

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


No. And, 1 Thessalonians 4 is painfully clear to those who want to salve their doctrine with untruths of The Rapture's way of SOMEDAY taking place, it's NOT yet happened, this is a different time of being 'caught up' in the sky comparative to God bringing down 'fire from heaven to devour them.' Totally different time periods. :) Totally :D
Green,

That is RECORDED HISTORY. Either it is the fulfillment of Revelation 13 or it is not.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
611
18
18
#64
Note: A “dispensation” is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cf. oikonomos, “a steward,” and oikonomeô, “to be a steward.” (174)
I can fully respect that the idea of household stewardship is primary in the commonly termed word dispensation, but why is it so terrible to note that these stewardships take place in a time period? Perhaps this is overemphasized but Adam and Eve's dispensation, Noah's, Abraham's, the Mosaic covenant of Law, and the "You are not under law but under grace" all take place in a time period, why is this so verboten?

There is much disagreement about the nature of Law now, but any New Testament view has to be reconciled with "not under law but grace" and the old covenant being obsolete as per Hebrews.
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
58
0
#65
Green,

That is RECORDED HISTORY. Either it is the fulfillment of Revelation 13 or it is not.
I just don't see it, sarasara, there's no logical explanation for how the great and mighty events of Revelation 20 and 1 Thessalonians 4 to come have already came. The temple's destruction in Rome in 70 A.D. just doesn't cut the mustard for resolution on this one, milady, it's much 'bigger' happenings to come. Much bigger. There will be fire from the mouths of horses and ONE-THIRD of the Earth's population will be destroyed in this time. Vamooose. GONE ! Kilt !! Dead-dead-dead. Just read Rev. 10, it's right there, you don't need to stretch, roll, paddy the words into some historical 'Nero' explanation . It's so simple, God blasts away 3 billion or so people at this time . Read Scxripture for the words that are in it, not the words you want in it :)

That Rev. 13 explain-away doesnt' got no 'ketchup,' sara, sara, it's empty, hopeful calorie eating, to disprove The Rapture, and, no doubt, someone went at GREAT, BIG lenghth, (LOL, at 'big') to whack 'dispensation of grace' and 'millenium dispensation' out of their mind to PROVE their no-rapture theory. But Scripture us clear, there are TWO distrinct events that WILL happen, one will be us meeting Christ in the sky, this Christ coming.

The 2nd time Christ does not say that He comes from the sky, He simply will vaporize Satan and the armies of his that are "like the sand of the seashore." Imagine that scenario, sarasara. How much sand is on a seashore !!!!

Rev. 13 being allegory of historical times of Nero IS nonsense, so,
nope, nada, nahhhhh-naaaah-naahhhhhhh. Nah-nah-nahhhh-nah.

Goooodbye :)
 
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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,080
38
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#66
and THAT is what you want for JEWS, eh.

you are GONE...and they are slaughtered; then the earth is filled with ANIMAL BLOOD.

this is thoroughly demonic.


Zone, any Jew can get saved today. Remember that the Body of Christ is composed of both saved Jews and saved Gentiles.


When a Jew gets saved today, he becomes a Christian. When a Gentile gets saved today, he becomes a Christian. There is neither Jew nor Greek, but we (Christians) are all one in Jesus Christ. See Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11.


The Rapture is to call out the Body of Christ from the earth. And the time of Jacob's trouble is where God will be dealing with Israel as a Nation again.
 
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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,080
38
48
#67

Zone, you need to start dealing with what the Holy Scriptures say and teach.

We have been over this before. There are clear Distinctions and Divisions in the word of God. And any Christian who is honest, will admit that.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
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#68
I just don't see it, sarasara, there's no logical explanation for how the great and mighty events of Revelation 20 and 1 Thessalonians 4 to come have already came. The temple's destruction in Rome in 70 A.D. just doesn't cut the mustard for resolution on this one, milady, it's much 'bigger' happenings to come. Much bigger. There will be fire from the mouths of horses and ONE-THIRD of the Earth's population will be destroyed in this time. Vamooose. GONE ! Kilt !! Dead-dead-dead. Just read Rev. 10, it's right there, you don't need to stretch, roll, paddy the words into some historical 'Nero' explanation . It's so simple, God blasts away 3 billion or so people at this time . Read Scxripture for the words that are in it, not the words you want in it :)

That Rev. 13 explain-away doesnt' got no 'ketchup,' sara, sara, it's empty, hopeful calorie eating, to disprove The Rapture, and, no doubt, someone went at GREAT, BIG lenghth, (LOL, at 'big') to whack 'dispensation of grace' and 'millenium dispensation' out of their mind to PROVE their no-rapture theory. But Scripture us clear, there are TWO distrinct events that WILL happen, one will be us meeting Christ in the sky, this Christ coming.

The 2nd time Christ does not say that He comes from the sky, He simply will vaporize Satan and the armies of his that are "like the sand of the seashore." Imagine that scenario, sarasara. How much sand is on a seashore !!!!

Rev. 13 being allegory of historical times of Nero IS nonsense, so,
nope, nada, nahhhhh-naaaah-naahhhhhhh. Nah-nah-nahhhh-nah.

Goooodbye :)
UMMM Where did I say Revelation 20 was fulfilled? Did I ever say that Jesus was not coming back as He said He was? Where did I say 1 Thessalonians 4 has happened either? You're trying to put words into my mouth.

Can you explain why Peter,Paul and Jesus all said things that were going to happen before the end FITS into the version of the end times that many of you claim is the truth?

Why is Peter very clear that before the end comes there will be scoffers about Jesus coming back?
Why does Paul also say there will a great falling away? Why does Jesus say very clearly that as in the days of Noah people will be eating and drinking,marrying and being given into marriage,by the way that points to things being somewhat reasonably "normal"? How do those verses fit into the end times things that many are saying now is going to happen?

So the questions would be what leads up to scoffers coming saying "Where is the coming of Christ,things are as they have been since the beginning?" What leads up to a great falling away? How with all that horribly bad stuff going on they DO NOT KNOW that Jesus is coming back? How is that even possible?
 
Nov 18, 2013
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#69

Zone, you need to start dealing with what the Holy Scriptures say and teach.

We have been over this before. There are clear Distinctions and Divisions in the word of God. And any Christian who is honest, will admit that.
No, there is only an evolving modus, and ultimately only one goal. Differing dispensations are merely the consequence of an evolving modus.

1Ti 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

By focusing only on the nation of Israel, you deny the truth of the above.
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
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#70
UMMM Where did I say Revelation 20 was fulfilled? Did I ever say that Jesus was not coming back as He said He was? Where did I say 1 Thessalonians 4 has happened either? You're trying to put words into my mouth.

Can you explain why Peter,Paul and Jesus all said things that were going to happen before the end FITS into the version of the end times that many of you claim is the truth?

Why is Peter very clear that before the end comes there will be scoffers about Jesus coming back?
Why does Paul also say there will a great falling away? Why does Jesus say very clearly that as in the days of Noah people will be eating and drinking,marrying and being given into marriage,by the way that points to things being somewhat reasonably "normal"? How do those verses fit into the end times things that many are saying now is going to happen?

So the questions would be what leads up to scoffers coming saying "Where is the coming of Christ,things are as they have been since the beginning?" What leads up to a great falling away? How with all that horribly bad stuff going on they DO NOT KNOW that Jesus is coming back? How is that even possible?
1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of Jesus coming from the sky.
But Rev. 20 speaks of fire coming down from Heaven.

Revelation 13 speaks of what then to you, sara sara ?

And, I looked through my last post, I don't see anywhere I'm trying to put words in your mouth you didn't say.
And, if I did, sorry, but, Rev. 13 does not correlate to events of Nero's time nor any other time in history past because it's history to come :)
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
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#71
1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of Jesus coming from the sky.
But Rev. 20 speaks of fire coming down from Heaven.

Revelation 13 speaks of what then to you, sara sara ?

And, I looked through my last post, I don't see anywhere I'm trying to put words in your mouth you didn't say.
And, if I did, sorry, but, Rev. 13 does not correlate to events of Nero's time nor any other time in history past because it's history to come :)

OK let me ask you a few questions,if the 200,000,000 man army is LITERAL that comes from east of the Euphrates,first where is the army coming from,which countries east of the Euphrates can supply that many men in an army? Two how do you get them there? Most everything east of the Euphrates for thousands of miles is mountains and deserts. By the way if you say China they would have to get through the Himalayas,the highest mountain range in the world. How do you supply that large of an army with food,water and gasoline,going through multiple deserts? What roads will they use now or even in the very near future? Then at the end of all of this how do you fit a 200,000,000 man army in NORTHERN ISRAEL which by the way is only about 5,000 square miles,the southern part of Israel is the Negev desert towards the south.



By the way if you take the 200,000,000 men and evenly put the same number of men per square mile within the 5,000 square miles of northern Israel that's 40,000 men per square mile,not counting equipment,broken done to square feet per man is a 25 square ft or to put it another way a 5 ft x 5 ft area per man is all you have within the 5,000 square miles. Now you also people saying it will be in Meggido in the valley of Jezreel. At the greatest square mileage they give for that is 1,000 square miles which means you are down to a 1 ft x 1 ft square for each and every single man,can you or anyone else please explain how that 200,000,000 man army can at all be literal?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
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#72
Zone, any Jew can get saved today. Remember that the Body of Christ is composed of both saved Jews and saved Gentiles.


When a Jew gets saved today, he becomes a Christian. When a Gentile gets saved today, he becomes a Christian. There is neither Jew nor Greek, but we (Christians) are all one in Jesus Christ. See Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11.


The Rapture is to call out the Body of Christ from the earth. And the time of Jacob's trouble is where God will be dealing with Israel as a Nation again.
ludicrous.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
63
#73
No, I have never heard of this William.

I used Webster's dictionary for my definitions in op.

I have heard of some of the names you continue to toss around in your various posts about dispensationalist, but I can assure you I have never looked at any of the material by them, such as scolfeild, Ryrie, Bullinger (sp?) as a matter of fact not one name you have referenced across this entire board have I read one of their, books, papers or the like. I have been very guarded in my studying, so I can be honest in my approaching God & the Scriptures, it has not been easy, but so worth it.

Well, page three was disgusting to say the least. I am off to work, back tonight. Btw, I do not discuss prophesy, for the simple fact, I have yet to approach it in my personal study, other than I do reject ammilinial view by my own study I came to this August 2012.
don't believe ya:)
NO ONE comes to the highly developed dispensational program (you've revealed you believe in) on their own.
the New Testament is very clear in what it says.

NO ONE says "It's not enough to be Scriptural, we must be Dispensational"

you may not have relied on those particular ppl (ahem); but you did not get your system from a simple reading.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
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#74
490 years in the Prophetic timeline and Prophecy given to Daniel is 70 weeks of years.


Daniel 70 Weeks Prophecy Pt. 1

Uploaded on Dec 7, 2010
http://www.kjvbiblebelievers.com



God gave the exact time of the appearance of "the Messiah the Prince". On that day, Jesus Christ presented himself in Jerusalem. But, as was predicted when Gabriel told Daniel that this Messiah would be "cut off", Jesus was rejected and killed by Crucifixion,


This prophetic passage is incomparable. No other religion, no other religious book, no other prophet and no other God has ever provided such undeniable proof of His existence and demonstration of His omniscience!


This message, if understood, will build your faith in our King James Bible and give you confidence and courage to serve God with all that you are, all that you have and all opportunity God provides.
there's no way i'm slogging through that video.
is the 70th week completely fulfilled or not?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
63
#75
I can fully respect that the idea of household stewardship is primary in the commonly termed word dispensation, but why is it so terrible to note that these stewardships take place in a time period? Perhaps this is overemphasized but Adam and Eve's dispensation, Noah's, Abraham's, the Mosaic covenant of Law, and the "You are not under law but under grace" all take place in a time period, why is this so verboten?

There is much disagreement about the nature of Law now, but any New Testament view has to be reconciled with "not under law but grace" and the old covenant being obsolete as per Hebrews.
is the Old Covenant superceded; fulfilled; abolished?

if the answer is yes, why are you trying to put anyone (jews) back under it in a "Davidic Kingdom"?
Jesus was and is greater than David; Solomon; John; everyone.

DONE.
 

LovePink

Deactivated upon user request
Dec 13, 2013
481
6
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#76
don't believe ya:)
NO ONE comes to the highly developed dispensational program (you've revealed you believe in) on their own.
the New Testament is very clear in what it says.

NO ONE says "It's not enough to be Scriptural, we must be Dispensational"

you may not have relied on those particular ppl (ahem); but you did not get your system from a simple reading.

I believe in the faith of Christ. I believe God. I look at dispensations and the bible dispensationally, through the method of approach called right division, yes. I have met many different people of faith on the Internet, some dispensationalist. I used to hate them, now I can appreciate them. I do keep to myself for the most part, because I am relying on God, not myself. It is hard, given my drive & desire. We all learn, we don't come to understand doctrines of men or God without a teacher or instructor(s). There is but one truth and I want that. You do not have to believe me, in fact, it is said "trust no one, not even yourself" but, search the scriptures daily, lean not on your own understanding, etc. I currently lean on a verse that helps me a great deal, when it comes to wanting to turn to things outside the bible for intellect, understanding or knowledge, it helps me slow down and gain control over my desire to rush ahead or in another direction over the necessary things of order. I know there is a pattern for establisment & edification for my capacity. There is a verse, "God has set some in the church", this verse says "a more excellent way", he is talking about liberal benevolence to edification, exhortation, comfort, being workers together with Him, meaning God. This is why, 2 Tim 3:15-17, 2 Tim 2:2, 7; 2 Tim 2:25-26 kjv... we are all students.


20*But ye have not so learned Christ;

21*If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus
 
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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,080
38
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#77
Have you read Josephus? Yes or no? Is this true or not?

REVELATION 13 (Part 5: Ten Fulfilled Prophecies Regarding the Beast)

Adam Maarschalk: October 22 & 29, 2009Scripture text for this study: Revelation 13:1-18
By way of reviewing the previous four posts, the following is a chart indicating what was foretold regarding “the beast from the sea” in Revelation 13 and 17, and how these things were true of Nero and the empire he led, represented, and personified. In some cases it would be possible for another entity aside from Nero to fulfill one of these prophecies (being identified with “666,” for example), but the fact that each one of these prophecies fits Nero and first-century Rome makes for a very compelling case that the fulfillment of Revelation 13 is past and not future. Keep in mind, as we noted in Part 1 of this Revelation 13 series, that the beast is seen in both the singular and the general sense (i.e. as an individual, and at the same time as an empire).[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]10 PROPHECIES REGARDING THE BEAST FROM THE SEA[/TD]
[TD]FULFILLMENT BY NERO/THE ROMAN EMPIRE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1. The beast was to have ten horns, which would carry it, give to it their own power and authority, persecute the saints, and finally turn on the “great prostitute” to the point of burning her with fire (Rev. 13:1; 17:3, 7, 12-14, 16-17).[/TD]
[TD]The Roman Empire contained 10 Senatorial Provinces, and the governors of each one granted their authority to Rome and also exercised authority on its behalf (See Part 1). This included aiding in Nero’s persecution of the saints, and carrying out the Roman war against Israel which resulted in the burning of Jerusalem in 70 AD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. The beast had seven heads. To John it was explained that the seven heads represented not only the “seven mountains on which the woman is seated,” but also “seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is [in John’s day], the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while” (Rev. 13:1; 17:3, 7, 9-10).[/TD]
[TD]Rome is the one city in history famous for its seven mountains, and first-century Rome celebrated the feast of the “seven-hilled city.” According to Josephus, Dio Cassius, Suetonius, and other historians, the first five Roman emperors (or “kings”; cf. John 19:15) were [1] Julius Caesar [2] Augustus [3] Tiberius [4] Caligula, and [5] Claudius. The sixth was Nero (54-68 AD), and the next emperor was Galba, who reigned for only six months before he was murdered (Again see Part 1).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. The beast was to have a mouth like a lion (Rev. 13:2).[/TD]
[TD]The apostle Paul, referring to his trial before Nero, testified that he was “rescued from the lion’s mouth” (II Timothy 4:16-17).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. One of the beast’s heads was to receive a mortal wound, but the beast’s wound would be healed, causing the whole earth to marvel “as they followed the beast” (Rev. 13:3, 12).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]Nero committed suicide in June 68 AD, bringing an end to the blood line that had sustained Rome since it had become an empire. His death was followed by chaos and civil war, causing the empire to nearly collapse, and Josephus testified that “every part of the habitable earth” under the Romans “was in an unsettled and tottering condition” (Wars 7.4.2). The next three emperors (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) each reigned considerably less than a year, each tried desperately to resurrect Nero’s image and authority, and it was only when Vespasian came to power in December 69 AD that Rome stabilized and became more powerful than ever (SeePart 2 and Part 3).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 354"]5. The “whole earth” would worship the beast, extolling it as incomparable and overwhelmingly powerful to any who would dare to oppose it. Only those whose names were “written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain” would not worship the beast (Rev. 13:4, 8; 17:8).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]See Part 2 for the very pronounced and extravagant worship demanded by, and received by, Nero during and after his reign. This included offering sacrifices to Nero’s spirit in the public square even after his death. One statue of Nero stood more than 110 feet high, and coins and other inscriptions hailed him as “Almighty God” and “Savior.” He was hailed as Apollo, Hercules, “the only one from the beginning of time,” and even rulers from other lands had to publicly worship both Nero and his images which were set up on lofty platforms. As for the reference to “the whole earth,” this can either be understood as referring to the Roman Empire (cf. Luke 2:1), or to Israel (In our study of Revelation so far, we have suggested that many of the references to “the earth” in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case.)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 354"]6. The beast was to be given authority “to make war on the saints and to conquer them” for a period of 42 months. The scope of his authority would be “over every tribe and people and language and nation” (Rev. 13:5-7).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]It’s a historical fact that Nero began to persecute the Christians throughout the Roman Empire in mid-November 64 AD. This intense persecution only ended when Nero committed suicide in June 68 AD. Thus he made war on the saints for a period of exactly 42 months. See Part 1.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 354"]7. The saints were called to endure and remain faithful in light of the fact that the beast who so often wielded the sword would himself be killed by the sword (Rev. 13:10, 14).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]In June 68 AD Nero ended his life by thrusting his sword through his own throat, with the help of his personal secretary, Epaphroditus, in part because he realized that his popularity had waned and also because of an attempted coup (See Part 1). Nero lived by the sword, and died by the sword. Tertullian [145-220 AD] credited “Nero’s cruel sword” as providing the martyr’s blood as seed for the church. At one point he urged his readers to “consult your histories; you will find there that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect.”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 354"]8. The beast from the sea would be given much support from a second beast (“from the earth”), which would compel “the earth and its inhabitants” to worship the first beast. An image of the first beast would be given breath, so that it might “even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain” (Rev. 13:11-15).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]Paul Kroll (1999), of Grace Communion International, notes that early church writers Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (among others) wrote of Simon Magus (mentioned in Acts 8:9-24) being able to bring statues to life in the first century AD. Kroll remarks that it was common during this era for statues to be deemed able to speak and perform miracles. The Roman historian Dio Cassius records in detail how a foreign king, Tiridates, literally and publicly worshipped Nero and his images in one particular conference. A number of ancient and modern historians insist that those who refused to do so, both during and after Nero’s reign, were executed.

David Chilton (quoting from Austin Farrer’s 1964 work) points out that these executions were carried out not only by Roman authorities, but also by Jewish authorities aligned with Rome: “[The Jewish leaders] organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to [Nero] Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues ‘forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated,’ and going as far as to put them to death” (See Part 3).

Much more is written on this in Part 2 (See especially View #3, as the reference to “the earth” here again likely indicates that Israel was in view).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 354"]9. No one would be able to buy or sell unless he had the mark of the beast on his right hand or forehead, “that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name” (Rev. 13:16-17).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]C. Marvin Pate and Calvin B. Haines Jr. (1995) record that those who worshipped Nero “received a certificate or mark of approval – charagma, the same word used in Revelation 13:16.” Richard Anthony (2009) adds these details: “All those under the jurisdiction of Rome were required by law to publicly proclaim their allegiance to Caesar by burning a pinch of incense and declaring, ‘Caesar is Lord’. Upon compliance with this law, the people were given a papyrus document called a ‘libellus’, which they were required to present when either stopped by the Roman police or attempting to engage in commerce in the Roman marketplace, increasing the difficulty of ‘buying or selling’ without this mark (emphasis added).” See Part 3.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 354"]10. John’s first-century readers, if they had wisdom and understanding, were to be able to identify the beast by calculating his number, which was “666.” John wrote this as if the beast was already in power as he was putting these things down in writing (Rev. 13:18).[/TD]
[TD="width: 366"]In Hebrew gematria, which John’s readers would have been familiar with (given the vast number of Hebrew references in Revelation), Nero’s name (NRWN QSR) = 666. The values of these seven Hebrew letters are 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively, adding up to 666. John’s code would have utilized the Hebrew language rather than Greek or Latin in order to avoid detection from Roman authorities, being that he had been exiled to Patmos (a Roman prison island) by Rome.

Nero’s name also adds up to “616,” which some early manuscripts refer to as the number of the beast because of a later transliteration into Latin. In this case “Nero Caesar” = 616 in Latin just as “Neron Caesar” = 666 in Hebrew, so Nero’s identity is confirmed by both renderings. See Part 3.[/TD]
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Revelation Chapter 13 (Part 5: Ten Fulfilled Prophecies) | Pursuing Truth



I have not read Josephus. But I just read your whole post of Adam Maarschalk's private interpretation of Revelation 13.


And no, Revelation 13 has not been fulfilled yet. But it will be fulfilled in the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week).


One of the issues I saw with Adam's work is that he does not quote from the right Bible. I don't know exactly which bible he is quoting from, but I know for a fact that he is not quoting from the King James Bible.


Also, another issue I see with his work is that he fails to mention about the seven seal, trumpet, and vial judgments. Does he mention about these judgments at all in his work?


Also, while the time when Rome was under the control of Nero seems like it has a lot of similiarities to the events described in Revelation 13, it does not fit all the descriptions of Rev. 13.


For instance, Rev. 13:7 says:


Revelation 13:7

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



Now Sarah, did Nero have power over all the kindreds, tongues, and nations of the Earth during his reign in Rome in the first century?


Also, I noticed that Adam seems to skip over Rev. 13:8-9. Why is that Sarah?


Also in verse 8 of Revelation 13, we read:




Revelation 13:8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Notice Sarah, the text says "ALL that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,"


Again, I ask you did Nero's reign go all over the globe???


What about the two witnesses in Rev. 11? Does Adam mention about the two witnesses?


One thing you need to understand Sarah, is that the system of the antichrist is going to be a one world, global, international system and government.


Now Nero's reign in Rome in the First Century could be seen as a TYPE of great tribulation. But it was not the Great Tribulation.


I do see some similarities.


So again, I do see how Nero's reign could be considered a TYPE of Tribulation, but it was not the tribulation. Nero can be considered as a TYPE of antichrist. But he was not THE antichrist.



The time of Jacob's trouble will take place in the future. Sometime AFTER the Rapture of the Body of Christ. Therefore Revelation 13 has not yet been fulfilled.


It still awaits fulfillment.

 
Last edited:

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
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0
#78
OK let me ask you a few questions,if the 200,000,000 man army is LITERAL that comes from east of the Euphrates,first where is the army coming from,which countries east of the Euphrates can supply that many men in an army? Two how do you get them there? Most everything east of the Euphrates for thousands of miles is mountains and deserts. By the way if you say China they would have to get through the Himalayas,the highest mountain range in the world. How do you supply that large of an army with food,water and gasoline,going through multiple deserts? What roads will they use now or even in the very near future? Then at the end of all of this how do you fit a 200,000,000 man army in NORTHERN ISRAEL which by the way is only about 5,000 square miles,the southern part of Israel is the Negev desert towards the south.

By the way if you take the 200,000,000 men and evenly put the same number of men per square mile within the 5,000 square miles of northern Israel that's 40,000 men per square mile,not counting equipment,broken done to square feet per man is a 25 square ft or to put it another way a 5 ft x 5 ft area per man is all you have within the 5,000 square miles. Now you also people saying it will be in Meggido in the valley of Jezreel. At the greatest square mileage they give for that is 1,000 square miles which means you are down to a 1 ft x 1 ft square for each and every single man,can you or anyone else please explain how that 200,000,000 man army can at all be literal?
Your going to literal with this number, yet it's pure fantasy to think that Revelation 13 is speaking of Nero?

Anyway, 200,000,000 could be real, too, at the appointed time. LOL, sarasara, it could become a 'two loaves of bread and 5 fish' turning into feeding the THOUSANDS .

I don't know, I never even thought about that, the point is that there is going be a great MULTITUDE that kicks things off when 1/3 of the Earth's populace is destroyed. That's the number that's really chilling . 2+ billion (conservative #) are going to be WIPED off planet of planet Earth by a plague or something of some nature that gets rid of billions and billions (can I use that for 2+ bil? :D ) .
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#79



Revelation 13:7

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



Now Sarah, did Nero have power over all the kindreds, tongues, and nations of the Earth during his reign in Rome in the first century?


Also, I noticed that Adam seems to skip over Rev. 13:8-9. Why is that Sarah?


Also in verse 8 of Revelation 13, we read:




Revelation 13:8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Notice Sarah, the text says "ALL that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,"


Again, I ask you did Nero's reign go all over the globe???


What about the two witnesses in Rev. 11? Does Adam mention about the two witnesses?


One thing you need to understand Sarah, is that the system of the antichrist is going to be a one world, global, international system and government.


Now Nero's reign in Rome in the First Century could be seen as a TYPE of great tribulation. But it was not the Great Tribulation.


I do see some similarities.


So again, I do see how Nero's reign could be considered a TYPE of Tribulation, but it was not the tribulation. Nero can be considered as a TYPE of antichrist. But he was not THE antichrist.



The time of Jacob's trouble will take place in the future. Sometime AFTER the Rapture of the Body of Christ. Therefore Revelation 13 has not yet been fulfilled.


It still awaits fulfillment.

Chosen,The OT says that about BABYLON too

Jeremiah 51

6 “Flee from Babylon!
Run for your lives!
Do not be destroyed because of her sins.
It is time for the Lord’s vengeance;
he will repay her what she deserves.
7 Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord’s hand;
she made the whole earth drunk.
The nations drank her wine;
therefore they have now gone mad.

8 Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken.
Wail over her!
Get balm for her pain;
perhaps she can be healed.

24 “Before your eyes I will repay Babylon and all who live in Babylonia[a] for all the wrong they have done in Zion,” declares the Lord.
25 “I am against you, you destroying mountain,
you who destroy the whole earth,”
declares the Lord.
“I will stretch out my hand against you,
roll you off the cliffs,
and make you a burned-out mountain.

26 No rock will be taken from you for a cornerstone,
nor any stone for a foundation,
for you will be desolate forever,”
declares the Lord.


Did Babylon destroy the whole earth then? Or did it mean the whole world as THEY KNEW IT?

Nero had power over the whole earth in the same manner that Babylon did. He had power of the entire world that John knew. It's the same language that was used in the OT.

Actually he goes though Revelation here (By the way he breaks Revelation 13 into 5 parts)


Pursuing Truth


Revelation | Pursuing Truth

Please explain if Revelation is to be taken 100 % literal how do you get a 200,000,000 man army from west of the Euphrates into the valley of Jezreel? If you think that it is the Chinese army that is a trip of about 4,500 miles over terrain like this





By the way it's thousands of miles of terrain like that,how do you get them water,food and gasoline over those type of distances,with that type of terrain?

 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#80
Your going to literal with this number, yet it's pure fantasy to think that Revelation 13 is speaking of Nero?

Anyway, 200,000,000 could be real, too, at the appointed time. LOL, sarasara, it could become a 'two loaves of bread and 5 fish' turning into feeding the THOUSANDS .

I don't know, I never even thought about that, the point is that there is going be a great MULTITUDE that kicks things off when 1/3 of the Earth's populace is destroyed. That's the number that's really chilling . 2+ billion (conservative #) are going to be WIPED off planet of planet Earth by a plague or something of some nature that gets rid of billions and billions (can I use that for 2+ bil? :D ) .
I believe Revelation 13 has been fulfilled. Nero was very real,historical person about whom it was recorded did those very things. Either he is part of the fulfillment of Revelation or he is not.