Dispensational Mythstakes?

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#1
According to the dispensational "theologians" the church and the church age was unforeseen in the old testament:

This is from dispensational writer J.D. Pentecost's book "Things to Come":

“The existence of this present age which was to interrupt God’s established program with Israel, was a mystery " (Page 134)

"The Church program not foretold by the prophets." (Page 135)

“The existence of an entirely new age which only interrupts temporarily God’s program for Israel, is one of the strongest arguments for the premillennial position. It is necessary for one who rejects that interpretation to prove that the church itself is the consummation of God’s program” (Page 136).

“The concept must stand that this whole age with its program was not revealed in the Old Testament, but constitutes a new program and a new line of revelation in this present age….

.....It has been illustrated how this whole age existed in the mind of God without having been revealed in the Old Testament.” (Page 137).

I don't agree with any of the above statements and the new testament writers completely abrogate this view.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
63
48
#3
Can you post some Scriptures for your view, be cause I'm not familiar with this.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#5
According to the dispensational "theologians" the church and the church age was unforeseen in the old testament:

This is from dispensational writer J.D. Pentecost's book "Things to Come":

“The existence of this present age which was to interrupt God’s established program with Israel, was a mystery " (Page 134)

"The Church program not foretold by the prophets." (Page 135)

“The existence of an entirely new age which only interrupts temporarily God’s program for Israel, is one of the strongest arguments for the premillennial position. It is necessary for one who rejects that interpretation to prove that the church itself is the consummation of God’s program” (Page 136).

“The concept must stand that this whole age with its program was not revealed in the Old Testament, but constitutes a new program and a new line of revelation in this present age….

.....It has been illustrated how this whole age existed in the mind of God without having been revealed in the Old Testament.” (Page 137).

I don't agree with any of the above statements and the new testament writers completely abrogate this view.
LOL those who try to make the church a parenthesis in God's purpose demonstrate their own folly.

The purpose of Messiah in coming was to establish His new congregation (Matt 16), the church of Jew and Gentile. He constantly stated how the Gentiles were to be taken in with Israel to form His church.

The OT is full of prophecy concerning this.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
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#6
Someone once shared this website with me on dispensationalism. - Israel's Kingdom Gospel and Our Grace Gospel

Not saying I completely agree or disagree with it, but there are some interesting points made.
This is from your link Dan:

Keep in mind that Ephesians was written around 62 AD, about 30 years after Jesus Christ had ascended into heaven. Paul had already completed his first three missionary journeys. Now let's look at Ephesians chapter 3, beginning with verses 1-4. "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery: (as I wrote afore in few words Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) ...." So we see that God by "revelation" showed Paul the "mystery" which no one knew before. This is why Paul calls it "my knowledge". "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and the prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel ..." (Ephesians 3:5-6). Note the change in tense here. Compare "is now revealed" (to the apostles around 62 AD) with "he made known unto me" (Paul) by revelation at some earlier time. Then in Ephesians 3:9, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ ....

The above is the basic dispensational position which is bogus and a twisted explanation that ignores other writings in the new testament.

The claim that the prophets knew nothing of the church or the church age is refuted by Peters plain statements:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Peter states that the prophets spoke and knew of "these days", what they were not cognizant of was the mystery that Paul spoke of Jew and Gentile being co-heirs/fellow-heirs in the promises of God:

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, [/b]and strangers from the covenants of promise[/b], having no hope, and without God in the world:


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Paul preached of the promises to Israel (which was to include the Gentiles as his personal ministry)

Acts 26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

How can the church be a mystery when Paul says that he preached none other than what Moses and the prophets said would come?

Dispensationalism crumbles at the foot of the cross, and at Peter and Paul's statements.







 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,705
681
113
#7
According to the dispensational "theologians" the church and the church age was unforeseen in the old testament:

This is from dispensational writer J.D. Pentecost's book "Things to Come":

“The existence of this present age which was to interrupt God’s established program with Israel, was a mystery " (Page 134)

"The Church program not foretold by the prophets." (Page 135)

“The existence of an entirely new age which only interrupts temporarily God’s program for Israel, is one of the strongest arguments for the premillennial position. It is necessary for one who rejects that interpretation to prove that the church itself is the consummation of God’s program” (Page 136).

“The concept must stand that this whole age with its program was not revealed in the Old Testament, but constitutes a new program and a new line of revelation in this present age….

.....It has been illustrated how this whole age existed in the mind of God without having been revealed in the Old Testament.” (Page 137).

I don't agree with any of the above statements and the new testament writers completely abrogate this view.
You believe in dispensations, but not to the extent as others do. The Bible has divisions. We are to rightly divide those divisions. The Bible has three groups of people to whom God speaks: Jew, Gentile, Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

Most of the Bible is written to the Jews. Very little is written to Gentiles. The thirteen epistles of Paul address the Church of God. When one doesn't rightly divide the word of truth, one is in danger of misplacing a truth from one address to another and placing a true teaching out of the word upon the backs of a group it does not belong. The entire Bible is written for us, but not all of it is written to us.

Many miss dispensational truth because they do not allow the Bible to be honest to them, taking it literally. God said what He meant and meant what He said. For example: Did God literally tell Noah to build an ark? Yes. Are we to literally build an ark? No. God's directions to Noah are not literally to us, but for us to see a shadow of things to come. Most of us can see the divisions throughout the OT, but many see the divisions that are to be made in the NT.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#8
Most of the Bible is written to the Jews. Very little is written to Gentiles. The thirteen epistles of Paul address the Church of God.
That would be the same church of God that Peter stated was being added to:

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There was and is only one church to which the Lord was and is "adding to daily", there was not one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

Basically your "dispensational" claim is invalidated.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#9
Of course, the "mystery" spoken of by Paul means nothing..
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#12
The mystery Paul spoke of was the "mystery of Jew and Gentile" equality in the promises to Israel - I already addressed that in post #6:

Peter states that the prophets spoke and knew of "these days", what they were not cognizant of was the mystery that Paul spoke of Jew and Gentile being co-heirs/fellow-heirs in the promises of God:


Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,947
10,315
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#13
The mystery Paul spoke of was the "mystery of Jew and Gentile" equality in the promises to Israel - I already addressed that in post #6:
Um no, Jew and gentile were saved the same in the OT as they are in the new, The jew is the one who got that wrong.

On of the mysteries, as paul explained in romans 11. Was that Israel would be blinded in part. And that gentiles would be given power..


Peter states that the prophets spoke and knew of "these days", what they were not cognizant of was the mystery that Paul spoke of Jew and Gentile being co-heirs/fellow-heirs in the promises of God:
And what of Jonah? Did he not repent to a gentile nation and they got saved?

They looked forward to those days because they knew Gods redeemer would come. and they wanted to witness that day.


Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

They were strangers to the covenant of promise, It was given to Isreal.. But no one was ever saved by those covenantants. If they wanted to be blessed however, they had to become part of those things.

Are you now teaching what many scream the dispensationals teach, that salvation is different today that it was OT, and in the OT jews and gentiles were not saved the same way?



Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Rom 11: [SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [SUP]24 [/SUP]even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]As He says also in Hosea:
I will call them My people, who were not My people,And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[SUP][i][/SUP]


How can it be a mystery if OT prophets for told of gentiles being made fellow heirs with jews.. And all would be called his people?

The mystery was not that jew and gentile would be one, Hosea said they would be one.. The mystery was that the system of law would be fulfilled, and no more would gentile have to go through Israel to be called Gods people (ie the church)

so the church was a mystery..
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
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#14
The mystery was not that jew and gentile would be one, Hosea said they would be one.. The mystery was that the system of law would be fulfilled, and no more would gentile have to go through Israel to be called Gods people (ie the church)

so the church was a mystery..]
its exactly the same thing
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#15
In the OT (call it the OT church if you like)

A gentile could not hold a position of power within the law. They could not hold the position of priest. They Really had no say in "church" matters, all they could do is do whatever was required by law to become part of the jewish promises,, and then they could be blessed by God through those promises if they obeyed the law

However. Non of this was required for them to be saved.

In this manner, they were alienated, had really no rights, so on and so forth.


In the NT church, a gentile can hold power. A gentile church is called a church of God. a gentile can be a priest. they can help with administration, and duties of the church. They were equal with jews in all areas pertaining to the church, they were no longer strangers, and alienated..

However. Being a part of the church will not save ANYONE..

Salvation from adam until the last man ever saved I by the grace of God based on faith in him.. and that alone.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,947
10,315
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#16
its exactly the same thing
what that the OT prophesied that a people who was not called Gods people would be called his people?

A gentile in the OT who did not fall under jewish law was called an outcast. and not able to proclaim Gods promises given according to the law. Wither that gentile was saved or not.

It is not that way in the NT
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
63
#17
what that the OT prophesied that a people who was not called Gods people would be called his people?

A gentile in the OT who did not fall under jewish law was called an outcast. and not able to proclaim Gods promises given according to the law. Wither that gentile was saved or not.

It is not that way in the NT
no. we're talking at cross purposes. n.m.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#19
Um no, Jew and gentile were saved the same in the OT as they are in the new, The jew is the one who got that wrong.

On of the mysteries, as paul explained in romans 11. Was that Israel would be blinded in part. And that gentiles would be given power..




And what of Jonah? Did he not repent to a gentile nation and they got saved?

They looked forward to those days because they knew Gods redeemer would come. and they wanted to witness that day.




They were strangers to the covenant of promise, It was given to Isreal.. But no one was ever saved by those covenantants. If they wanted to be blessed however, they had to become part of those things.

Are you now teaching what many scream the dispensationals teach, that salvation is different today that it was OT, and in the OT jews and gentiles were not saved the same way?





Rom 11: [SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [SUP]24 [/SUP]even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]As He says also in Hosea:
I will call them My people, who were not My people,And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[SUP][i][/SUP]


How can it be a mystery if OT prophets for told of gentiles being made fellow heirs with jews.. And all would be called his people?

The mystery was not that jew and gentile would be one, Hosea said they would be one.. The mystery was that the system of law would be fulfilled, and no more would gentile have to go through Israel to be called Gods people (ie the church)

so the church was a mystery..
Eph 3:4
whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;
Eph 3:5
which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6
to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow–heirs, and fellow–members of the body, and fellow–partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
Eph 3:7
whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power.
Eph 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9
and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which from all ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
Eph 3:10
to the intent that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11
according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus

The great mystery that God kept hidden, but was His eternal purpose, is outlined above. It was that through the church might be made known the manifold wisdom of God.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
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#20
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?25 As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[h]
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

How can it be a mystery if OT prophets for told of gentiles being made fellow heirs with jews.. And all would be called his people?


The mystery was not that jew and gentile would be one, Hosea said they would be one.. The mystery was that the system of law would be fulfilled, and no more would gentile have to go through Israel to be called Gods people (ie the church)


so the church was a mystery..


How can the church be a "mystery": - the mystery was "Jew and Gentile" equality because Paul stated it was:

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Paul in Roman's is using the exact same "motif" as he is in Ephesians, except in Ephesians he is "fleshing" out the "mystery" in greater detail.

Hosea is not speaking of Jew and Gentile equality directly, in fact although Paul is using Hosea he is most likely using it in the context of bringing in the 10 tribes that had been cast out:

Peter is addressing the Ten Tribes in his letter:


1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek – diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Diaspora is generally admitted to be a "term" for the Ten tribes - thus we can conclude that the Ten tribes are in view and being "gathered".

Peter also virtually quotes word for word the prophesy in Hosea:


1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.


And to drive home the point that it is the diaspora of Israel that is being gathered in the 1st century AD Peter previously stated:

1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.


The "short work" and "he will finish the work" all relate to the 2nd Exodus under way in the 1st century AD and "finished" in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.