Dispensational Mythstakes?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#21
Eph 3:4
whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;
Eph 3:5
which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6
to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow–heirs, and fellow–members of the body, and fellow–partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
Eph 3:7
whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power.
Eph 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9
and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which from all ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
Eph 3:10
to the intent that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11
according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus

The great mystery that God kept hidden, but was His eternal purpose, is outlined above. It was that through the church might be made known the manifold wisdom of God.
in other words. The church is part of the great mystery..

Thank you , You just proved my point..
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#22
How can the church be a "mystery": - the mystery was "Jew and Gentile" equality because Paul stated it was:

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Paul in Roman's is using the exact same "motif" as he is in Ephesians, except in Ephesians he is "fleshing" out the "mystery" in greater detail.

Hosea is not speaking of Jew and Gentile equality directly, in fact although Paul is using Hosea he is most likely using it in the context of bringing in the 10 tribes that had been cast out:

Peter is addressing the Ten Tribes in his letter:


1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek – diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Diaspora is generally admitted to be a "term" for the Ten tribes - thus we can conclude that the Ten tribes are in view and being "gathered".

Peter also virtually quotes word for word the prophesy in Hosea:


1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.


And to drive home the point that it is the diaspora of Israel that is being gathered in the 1st century AD Peter previously stated:

1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.


The "short work" and "he will finish the work" all relate to the 2nd Exodus under way in the 1st century AD and "finished" in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.
You too just proved my point.

What is different about the NT church, and the OT church?

One major one is that Jew and gentile are equal partakers. Whereas, They were not in then old.. Of course the greatest is the cross.. Which the OT could not have seen.. That is why it is called the mystery.

Of course, How one is saved is not part of the equation..
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
30
0
#23
Clearly the Church, as established in this age, is the eschatological Israel of the Old Testament. The Church has always existed, even among that ancient and typical nation.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,073
826
113
#24
Clearly the Church, as established in this age, is the eschatological Israel of the Old Testament. The Church has always existed, even among that ancient and typical nation.
Hello Sokenpassage,

The church is a new entity that was initiated by the Lord, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. If the church would have existed prior to the Lord's appearing in the flesh, then he would not have said, "I will [build] my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. The word "build" in the verse above is in the future tense, meaning that it had not previously existed.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
17,527
4,906
113
53
#25
Hello Sokenpassage,

The church is a new entity that was initiated by the Lord, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. If the church would have existed prior to the Lord's appearing in the flesh, then he would not have said, "I will [build] my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. The word "build" in the verse above is in the future tense, meaning that it had not previously existed.
Amen! The word "church" does not even appear for the first time in the Bible until Matthew 16:18.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#26
in other words. The church is part of the great mystery..

Thank you , You just proved my point..
Yes God hid what He was going to do from the time in Egypt onwards, while He did the preliminary work of preparing for the Messiah. He did not reveal immediately what His final purpose was,
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#27
Hello Sokenpassage,

The church is a new entity that was initiated by the Lord, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. If the church would have existed prior to the Lord's appearing in the flesh, then he would not have said, "I will [build] my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. The word "build" in the verse above is in the future tense, meaning that it had not previously existed.
'I will build' simply describes how everything is moving on as a result of His Messiahship. Previously He built it on the old covenant. The 'church in the wilderness,' Now it is a new beginning. His church was previously built on the Old Covenant, Now He will build it on the fact of His coming as the Christ, the Son of the living God. He nowhere says it is a new church. The old congregation was built on the old covenant, now His new congregation of both Jews and Gentiles will be built on the New,' But it is the continuation of the same congregation. And both were built on the promises to Abraham
.
 
Last edited:

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#28
Amen! The word "church" does not even appear for the first time in the Bible until Matthew 16:18.
actually it occurs numerous times in LXX, speaking of the church or congregation of Israel,.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
17,527
4,906
113
53
#29
actually it occurs numerous times in LXX, speaking of the church or congregation of Israel,.
Which is not the universal church under the new covenant that consists of all those who were baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink (1 Corinthians 12:13). This church was still future, as Jesus stated in Matthew 16:18.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,376
567
113
#30
That would be the same church of God that Peter stated was being added to:

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There was and is only one church to which the Lord was and is "adding to daily", there was not one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

Basically your "dispensational" claim is invalidated.
The book of Acts is a transitional book from the gospels and life of the Lord Jesus to the writings of the Apostle Paul and what the death, burial and resurrection now mean. It is a transition from Peter's ministry to Paul, from Jew to Gentile.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,376
567
113
#31
You too just proved my point.

What is different about the NT church, and the OT church?

One major one is that Jew and gentile are equal partakers. Whereas, They were not in then old.. Of course the greatest is the cross.. Which the OT could not have seen.. That is why it is called the mystery.

Of course, How one is saved is not part of the equation..
The New Testament church is the body of Christ. There's only one way in the body of Christ and that's through belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for one's sin. The New Testament church did not begin until after the resurrection. No one was in the body of Christ in the OT.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,376
567
113
#32
Remember, the word church simply means a group or assembly. It does not always refer to the same church entity throughout Scripture just like the word saved does not always mean eternally saved from one's sin. The context will help point one to the correct meaning.
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#33
Clearly the Church, as established in this age, is the eschatological Israel of the Old Testament. The Church has always existed, even among that ancient and typical nation.
The church is name has always existed Amen. (salvation by grace through faith)

How God dealt with the church is not the same, It has changed through the ages.

The church as we see it today could not have been seen in the OT. That's why it was a "mystery"
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#34
Yes God hid what He was going to do from the time in Egypt onwards, while He did the preliminary work of preparing for the Messiah. He did not reveal immediately what His final purpose was,

Yes,, But He had been doing that actually since Adam and Eve first sinned, When he covered them with the skin of a dead animal, The first hint that the shedding of innocent blood is what covers our nakedness (sin)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,376
567
113
#35
The Lord revealed several mysteries through the Apostle Paul that had not been made manifested up to that point.

1. The mystery of godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

This mystery reveals that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. This teaches that God came to this earth as a baby with the mother being a virgin. Jesus was fully God, fully man and lived a sinless life while on this earth.

2. The mystery of Christ indwelling the believer

Colossians 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"
This teaches that Jesus Christ is inside the Born Again man. It is such a mystery that a sinless Saviour would dwell within our wicked bodies. Every Christian should consider this mystery and realize that Jesus should be King over our body, not ourselves. This thought should also keep us from sinning knowing that He is inside us. Every believer has two natures, the flesh and the spirit.

3. The mystery of the body of Christ

Ephesians 5:32 "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Ephesians 3:1 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"

This mystery tells us that anyone who is saved is in the Body of Christ, which is the Bride of Christ (Rev. 21:9). After the Rapture and the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Body of Christ, who is the Bride will meet her Bridegroom Jesus Christ at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9). Right now, the Body of Christ is called a chaste virgin (2 Cor. 11:2) because the marriage has not yet happened. Although the marriage has happened spiritually already (1 Cor. 6:17), it has not happened bodily (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

4. The mystery of the blindness to Israel

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:"

This mystery deals with the blindness of Israel as a nation and their restoration in the future during the Millennium. The mystery revealed is that God is not through with Israel. God will take the wandering Jews and bring them back to Palestine, which He has already done and convert them to Jesus Christ during the Tribulation. They will then get all of their land back in the Millennium.

5. The mystery of iniquity

2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

This mystery is talking about the Antichrist that will reign during the Tribulation (2 Thess. 2:2-8). This man's number will be 666 (Rev. 13:18).

6. The mystery of the rapture

1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

This mystery deals with the disappearance of the Body of Christ at the end of the Church Age, before the Tribulation. There will be two types of people that go up in this rapture, the saved dead and the saved that are still alive. The saved will get glorified bodies and go up to meet Jesus and it will happen "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#36
Which is not the universal church under the new covenant that consists of all those who were baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink (1 Corinthians 12:13). This church was still future, as Jesus stated in Matthew 16:18.
sadly,Today is not much different in the way some do.

Many jews thought that just because they were part of the assembly, They are in.. Today many people think because they go to church, or go with their parents to church and their parents are saved, they are in.
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#37
The New Testament church is the body of Christ. There's only one way in the body of Christ and that's through belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for one's sin. The New Testament church did not begin until after the resurrection. No one was in the body of Christ in the OT.

So abraham, David, Noah and all were not a part of it?

Sorry, I disagree, they were to.. Their payment just had yet to be payed.. But they were and are as much of the body as we are.
 
Jan 21, 2017
647
28
0
#38
Gentiles used to be outside of the commonwealth of Israel, yet now in Christ they are in the commonwealth of Israel
Eph 2:12
There are no two separate peoples, lets not cut up scriptures.

Even in the old testament we had converts join the nation of Israel.

ISRAEL WAS NEVER ABOUT BLOODLINE alone, put PROMISE.
Certainly God was more pleased with Ruth than a wicked israelite worshiping foreign gods????
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,376
567
113
#39

So abraham, David, Noah and all were not a part of it?

Sorry, I disagree, they were to.. Their payment just had yet to be payed.. But they were and are as much of the body as we are.
The cross of Christ was hidden from the very beginning and it's effects were not made manifest until after the resurrection. The only way into the body of Christ is by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,719
7,759
113
#40
The cross of Christ was hidden from the very beginning and it's effects were not made manifest until after the resurrection. The only way into the body of Christ is by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus died for them also.. Not just you and I.

if they are not a member of the body, they are not saved.

They believed in Gods provision, They just did not know what it would be.. The effects are the same.