Dispensational Mythstakes?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 14, 2011
64,164
10,564
113
#61
Anyway, I am headed home, Not sure if I will have time to get back on or not. So if you respond and I do not answer today, do not think it is because you got me and I can not answer.

I look forward to what you have to say (I just pray it is not the same stuff I have heard for decades now) maybe you will have something new?

At the very least. Please explain the difference between the promise given to a NATION (which were non salvic) and promise given to NATIONS (which were salvic)..
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
30
0
#62
'I will build' simply describes how everything is moving on as a result of His Messiahship. Previously He built it on the old covenant. The 'church in the wilderness,' Now it is a new beginning. His church was previously built on the Old Covenant, Now He will build it on the fact of His coming as the Christ, the Son of the living God. He nowhere says it is a new church. The old congregation was built on the old covenant, now His new congregation of both Jews and Gentiles will be built on the New,' But it is the continuation of the same congregation. And both were built on the promises to Abraham
.
Below is an essay from John Owen found in his introduction to his commentary on the book of Hebrews. I’m posting it here for simple reference as I cannot find it anywhere else online as a single, separate article. The text is copied from Exercitations on the Epistle to the Hevress

This essay has very important implications for how to properly interpret the olive tree of Romans 11.

Note that Owen argues against the idea that the nation of Israel was the church. Instead, he argues that the church in the Old Testament was the elect remnant within the nation of Israel. He says there were two offspring of Abraham: physical and spiritual. And there were two types of promises made to Abraham to correspond to these offspring: physical/temporal and spiritual/eternal. And these two types of promises were both covenantal promises. They were both parts of the Abrahamic Covenant. Thus the Abrahamic Covenant is both carnal and spiritual. It existed in a mixed state until the coming of Christ, but it has now been separated. Owen’s essay on the Oneness of the Church should be read in light of the following comment he makes later in his commentary:

When we speak of the “new covenant,” we do not intend the covenant of grace absolutely, as though it were not before in existence and effect, before the introduction of that which is promised here. For it was always the same, substantially, from the beginning. It passed through the whole dispensation of times before the law, and under the law, of the same nature and effectiveness, unalterable, “everlasting, ordered in all things, and sure.” All who contend about these things, the Socinians only excepted, grant that the covenant of grace, considered absolutely, — that is, the promise of grace in and by Jesus Christ, —was the only way and means of salvation to the church, from the first entrance of sin.

But for two reasons, it is not expressly called a covenant, without respect to any other things, nor was it called a covenant under the old testament. When God renewed the promise of it to Abraham, he is said to make a covenant with him; and he did so, but this covenant with Abraham was with respect to other things, especially the proceeding of the promised Seed from his loins. But absolutely, under the old testament, the covenant of grace consisted only in a promise; and as such only is proposed in the Scripture,

Exposition of the Book of Hebrews 8:6

If you want to read more: The Oneness of the Church (Owen) | 1689 Federalism
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#63
The mystery was the cross itself. and the change which would occur because of the cross.. (the NT church)

The specific promises I speak of were said to be eternal promises.. Thus they are still in effect.

Of course, whether you agree or not, Believe it is true or not. Does not matter, What matters is what God said,

He said plainly, I give this TO YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS FOREVER.

forever did not end at the cross.. Nor was eternal salvation part of the "This" that he gave them.

This is all very pompous, because them are the believers in God.
Those who rebelled were killed by fellow Jews, by God, by the babylonians, and by the romans.
So the promises were always for the people of promise, those of the Kingdom of heaven,
into which we were grafted.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#64
The mystery was the cross itself. and the change which would occur because of the cross.. (the NT church)

The specific promises I speak of were said to be eternal promises.. Thus they are still in effect.

Of course, whether you agree or not, Believe it is true or not. Does not matter, What matters is what God said,

He said plainly, I give this TO YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS FOREVER.

forever did not end at the cross.. Nor was eternal salvation part of the "This" that he gave them.

The word 'forever' in the Scriptures means literally 'into the hidden future'. The Hebrew a had no concept of forever,
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,164
10,564
113
#65
The word 'forever' in the Scriptures means literally 'into the hidden future'. The Hebrew a had no concept of forever,
Then your salvation is in question.

When God says forever. He does not mean it.. You better start practicing law my friend..
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#66
I realised the eternal life, is only eternal life because the 2nd death does not apply.

But when will you know? At judgement day. So though people want to say eternal
life is this different life, actually it is saying the 2nd death will not happen.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#67
Then your salvation is in question.

When God says forever. He does not mean it.. You better start practicing law my friend..
LOL you should know better than that. My salvation is dependent on God and His many promises (eg John 6.39; etc) not on some individual verse which says, 'unto the hidden future'.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#68
I realised the eternal life, is only eternal life because the 2nd death does not apply.

But when will you know? At judgement day. So though people want to say eternal
life is this different life, actually it is saying the 2nd death will not happen.
In John's Gospel and letters he speaks specifically of having eternal life NOW. It is one of his themes.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,164
10,564
113
#69
LOL you should know better than that. My salvation is dependent on God and His many promises (eg John 6.39; etc) not on some individual verse which says, 'unto the hidden future'.
lol, You should know better, Their promise was based on God also. Not some verse which you THINK says "unto a hidden future"

You Can't claim God promised you an inheritance he said would last forever, because it fits your belief, But when he said the same to the, it means something different..
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,164
10,564
113
#70
I realised the eternal life, is only eternal life because the 2nd death does not apply.

Your right,, It means the those who have it will not suffer the second death.. As jesus said in John 6, they will never die, live forever, etc etc.

It does not mean a person will not suffer the first death.


But when will you know? At judgement day. So though people want to say eternal
life is this different life, actually it is saying the 2nd death will not happen.

Jesus said you will never die when you believe, He said whoever has faith has (posseses) eternal life now. John said in his epistle. thaty we can know we have (present tense) eternal life.

if we can not KNOW until we get to eternity, Both jesus and John lied.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
120
63
#71
lol, You should know better, Their promise was based on God also. Not some verse which you THINK says "unto a hidden future"

You Can't claim God promised you an inheritance he said would last forever, because it fits your belief, But when he said the same to the, it means something different..
the word 'ylam means into the hidden future. I cannot hide from that fact even to please you.

As they had no word for 'forever' they could not say my salvation was forever.

But WE have a word which means forever, so we can say if it is forever based on Scriptures which actually teach that..

I am not bound by small minds :)
 
Last edited:
Mar 14, 2011
64,164
10,564
113
#72
the word 'ylam means into the hidden future. I cannot hide from that fact even to please you.

As they had no word for 'forever' they could not say my salvation was forever.

The word can also mean never ending, Forever.

whether you says it does not or not does not matter..

Abrahams promise was to all his descendents forever.. That promise includes the salvation promise.

so again, If forever does not mean forever, Your salvation is in jeapardy, God can change his mind at any time.



But WE have a word which means forever, so we can say if it is forever based on Scriptures which actually teach that..

I am not bound by small minds :)
Yeah whatever,

Your right, It will stop at one point, It will stop when the land of canaan stops being in existence, When God destroys this heavens and earth and creates a new one.. Then the promise will no longer be in existance, because there will be no land there..

But you keep believing what you want.. No sweat of my back..

And by the way, Your small mind comment, That why you get into so much trouble, your arrogant self righteiousness is unbecoming a child of God..
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
675
113
#73
The word 'forever' in the Scriptures means literally 'into the hidden future'. The Hebrew a had no concept of forever,
owlam can mean "for ever", but it needs a context.

H5769 `owlam o-lawm'

or lolam {o-lawm'};

from H5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out
of mind
(past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial
(especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any
more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long
(time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+
without end). Compare H5331, H5703.


The Aaronic priesthood was said to be "owlam":

Exo 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Yet we know from Hebrews that it was not "everlasting", it was meant to endure until the purpose of that priesthood was finished, the same with the temple and Mosaic covenant.

When the Hebrew's wished to write of something "for ever" they used such as "no end"

(Isa 9:7 KJV) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David....


In Jeremiah 23: 39-40, God threatened Israel with destruction by the Babylonians: “I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.”